Mental weakness at Spurs

[Gringospur]

If someone expected us to win every game, they'd be completely mad.

If Man United (in Ferguson's era) didn't expect to win every game, they'd be showing a lack of ambition.

You have to be able to win every game before you can expect to win every game![/QUOTE

Should be able to beat every team below top 4 and at least get a draw with them in the top 4.
Thing is, when we expect to beat a team, we often lack the application to do so.

 

[shelfboy68]

I said maybe because I don't have the answer but seeing as you do please enlighten us

Part of the problem is for as Long as i can remember we tend to buy players that are entertainers who have No more than a dozen good games a season.
These players are unplayable when on their game but when not or the opposition stop them they go missing all too often as well.
For example many years ago it was noted that the gooners would be steady,reliable and consistant players whereas we would go out and buy someone who had a great game against us but ignore the fact they dissapeared in the other 20.
It may be an indicator as to why they have won the League about a dozen times to Our two, it might not be the whole story but its part of the problem the rest poor manager selection and managers.

 

[Dr Know]

Part of the problem is for as Long as i can remember we tend to buy players that are entertainers who have No more than a dozen good games a season.
These players are unplayable when on their game but when not or the opposition stop them they go missing all too often as well.
For example many years ago it was noted that the gooners would be steady,reliable and consistant players whereas we would go out and buy someone who had a great game against us but ignore the fact they dissapeared in the other 20.
It may be an indicator as to why they have won the League about a dozen times to Our two, it might not be the whole story but its part of the problem the rest poor manager selection and managers.

I'm trying to understand the point here so forgive me if I'm missing it.

So what you're saying is, over the last 20 odd years we've bought entertainers. So I guess every owner and the managers we had over thats period, have all been exactly the same?

 

[cliff jones]

I can only assume the people who think the fans don't create a negative mental environment are in some way trying to justify their own (lack of) actions.

It's quite obvious (and there are probably studies on this - not that they're needed it's stating the bleeding obvious) that the positive role of a supporter adds to the performance of the team. 100% of clubs do various initiatives (even stoke did it with Neil Baldwin) to improve the positivity at their club both internally and externally, and this extends to all sports. Simply saying you don't believe it is absolute horseshit, because it's so obvious and is something clubs and teams spend so much resources on trying to improve.

I think the debate manifests itself with people with the denial mentality blaming everyone else but themselves (because they pay their money) being on one side and the rest who understand the role they play in improving performances being on the other.

You've had a few bites at this but the op suggests the weakness has been present for twenty years or more. When Hod was manager, for example, the home fans were largely excellent. My last st was in the park lane upper at this time and even though the team was inconsistent at best we always got behind them.

It's easy to agree the home atmosphere has deteriorated in recent years but most home fans among the leading sides are poor, out sung by a couple of thousand from west brom. If we are worse perhaps because our roi is less than other fans, think we paid the most per home prem goal last season by way of illustration.

 

[shelfboy68]

I'm trying to understand the point here so forgive me if I'm missing it.

So what you're saying is, over the last 20 odd years we've bought entertainers. So I guess every owner and the managers we had over thats period, have all been exactly the same?

Mate i dont want to fall out with you or any other member so as you dont understand i will have to leave you and bid you good day and enjoy the game .

 

[Stavrogin]

A lot has been made of the players' mental weakness over the last couple of weeks, not least by our manager.

This isn't a new thing, however, as over the last 20-odd years Tottenham Hotspur have also had a reputation for being a bit soft; for "always letting you down" as I think Roy Keane once said.

So this is a thread to discuss the club's mentality.

Is there a systemic problem at the club? How does it manifest itself? Who's to blame? If it does exist, how do we change it?

There was a lot of discussion about this on another thread.

We have to ask, what stays the same? Managers, owners, executives, systems, players, fans; these all change. What can persist through that?

One answer is the sorts of players we buy. We've always spent big on players, we've always signed players that seem significant: Gordon Durie, Jason Dozzell, Ruel Fox, Andy Sinton, Chris Armstrong, Ilie Dumitrescu, Les Ferdinand, Tim Sherwood, Helder Postiga, Ben Thatcher, Ramon Vega, Sergei Rebrov, Didier Zokora, David Bentley, Darren Bent, Roman Pavyluchenko...

What they have in common is that they feel like players only we could sign. No top club would have wanted them yet they were too costly or considered too good for slightly lesser clubs. We're always aspirational, grasping for the best we can possibly get - which, unfortunately, is frequently 'second tier'.

We sign waves of talented but flawed players again and again. They can struggle with the weight of expectations, they may think they've made it; often they come into a side that is unsettled/new but lack the sheer raw talent to pull the team along with them.

Everything is harder for us. We sign Modric at a large fee but he was still relatively inexperienced. It's not inconceivable that had we appointed the wrong man after Ramos, Modric would never had had the career he had with us. Had he signed for a bigger club, there would be less pressure as they'd have a clutch of similarly expensive players and other stars to carry him initially.

So if you want the broader answer, it's just a reflection of our position. We buy expensive and flashy clothes but rarely good quality. We look good until the weather turns.

But really, if we have mental weakness, what do arsenal have? Given the talent, wages, stability, savagery and momentum that they possess, why have they shown as much if not more weakness than us?

 

[shelfboy68]

There was a lot of discussion about this on another thread.

We have to ask, what stays the same? Managers, owners, executives, systems, players, fans; these all change. What can persist through that?

One answer is the sorts of players we buy. We've always spent big on players, we've always signed players that seem significant: Gordon Durie, Jason Dozzell, Ruel Fox, Andy Sinton, Chris Armstrong, Ilie Dumitrescu, Les Ferdinand, Tim Sherwood, Helder Postiga, Ben Thatcher, Ramon Vega, Sergei Rebrov, Didier Zokora, David Bentley, Darren Bent, Roman Pavyluchenko...

What they have in common is that they feel like players only we could sign. No top club would have wanted them yet they were too costly or considered too good for slightly lesser clubs. We're always aspirational, grasping for the best we can possibly get - which, unfortunately, is frequently 'second tier'.

We sign waves of talented but flawed players again and again. They can struggle with the weight of expectations, they may think they've made it; often they come into a side that is unsettled/new but lack the sheer raw talent to pull the team along with them.

Everything is harder for us. We sign Modric at a large fee but he was still relatively inexperienced. It's not inconceivable that had we appointed the wrong man after Ramos, Modric would never had had the career he had with us. Had he signed for a bigger club, there would be less pressure as they'd have a clutch of similarly expensive players and other stars to carry him initially.

So if you want the broader answer, it's just a reflection of our position. We buy expensive and flashy clothes but rarely good quality. We look good until the weather turns.

But really, if we have mental weakness, what do arsenal have? Given the talent, wages, stability, savagery and momentum that they possess, why have they shown as much if not more weakness than us?

Arsenal might not be as tough as say Chelsea but they always finish top four and last year won a cup its more than we do in fairness but they have had the same manager since Queen Victoria which helps.

 

[Japhet]

Interesting topic. Here's my take on it (for what it's worth);

Our 'problem' revolves around unrealistic levels of belief.
The players believe that they are entitled to much without putting in what is required to achieve it. Many teams face Spurs from a lower position and manage to out-fight us for results which leave a bad taste in the mouths. In these games we are often complacent, whereas the 'top' sides makes sure they get the 3 points by going for the kill. We seem to reserve our efforts for 'bigger' teams and believe (often wrongly) that we can get a result, but consistently fail to show heart when the opponents are deemed inferior. We do not have enough sense to ensure that we battle it out with teams that are prepared to roll their sleeves up.

Our supporters suffer from precisely the same ailment and expect to take points from lower teams. These are the games where winning runs and a winning mentality can be built but our complacency continually undermines us.

Some of our players seem to think they are too good for us or are entitled to play the 'big' games. Not good enough IMO. Everything should be earned all of the time, and that is where real winning teams succeed. Unlike us they never take their eye off the ball and treat every game with equal urgency and desire.

 

[Dr Know]

Mate i dont want to fall out with you or any other member so as you dont understand i will have to leave you and bid you good day and enjoy the game .

No need for a fall out mate, my intention was just to try to understand your point. I will try my best to enjoy the game, thanks.

In regards to my earlier post

QUOTE="Dr Know, post: 4309611, member: 16228"]Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??[/QUOTE]

I feel the problem may be the expectation of the fans. I've read quotes on here about fans having the right to boo as they've paid the money. Question is, does this really help? Even when we win by only 1 goal to a team that are on a bad run, the fans still moan, forgetting we've just got 3 points. How do we change this mentality? I don't think we can and that's why I feel we'll always be in this position regardless of who manages the club

 

[shelfboy68]

No need for a fall out mate, my intention was just to try to understand your point. I will try my best to enjoy the game, thanks.

In regards to my earlier post

QUOTE="Dr Know, post: 4309611, member: 16228"]Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??

I feel the problem may be the expectation of the fans. I've read quotes on here about fans having the right to boo as they've paid the money. Question is, does this really help? Even when we win by only 1 goal to a team that are on a bad run, the fans still moan, forgetting we've just got 3 points. How do we change this mentality? I don't think we can and that's why I feel we'll always be in this position regardless of who manages the club[/QUOTE]

I dont know where you got the booing thing from as i never Boo the team despite getting wound up as you May see sometimes on here i try not to post after matches cos i get a bit passionate.
Even when i was at the game last Week i never booed but plenty did worst Ive Heard it in a Long time its counter productive i think.

 

[Dr Know]

I feel the problem may be the expectation of the fans. I've read quotes on here about fans having the right to boo as they've paid the money. Question is, does this really help? Even when we win by only 1 goal to a team that are on a bad run, the fans still moan, forgetting we've just got 3 points. How do we change this mentality? I don't think we can and that's why I feel we'll always be in this position regardless of who manages the club

I dont know where you got the booing thing from as i never Boo the team despite getting wound up as you May see sometimes on here i try not to post after matches cos i get a bit passionate.
Even when i was at the game last Week i never booed but plenty did worst Ive Heard it in a Long time its counter productive i think.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't say you did mate, hell I don't even know you. Like you said though, you've heard it yourself as did millions around the globe watching on the box

 

[shelfboy68]

I dont know where you got the booing thing from as i never Boo the team despite getting wound up as you May see sometimes on here i try not to post after matches cos i get a bit passionate.
Even when i was at the game last Week i never booed but plenty did worst Ive Heard it in a Long time its counter productive i think.

Wasn't say you did mate, hell I don't even know you. Like you said though, you've heard it yourself as did millions around the globe watching on the box[/QUOTE]

Yeah Im sure it was Heard like i say it was the worst i had Heard in a Long time guess people are getting frustrated.
But a win today and we are back among the top six.

 

[Nocando]

You've had a few bites at this but the op suggests the weakness has been present for twenty years or more. When Hod was manager, for example, the home fans were largely excellent. My last st was in the park lane upper at this time and even though the team was inconsistent at best we always got behind them.

It's easy to agree the home atmosphere has deteriorated in recent years but most home fans among the leading sides are poor, out sung by a couple of thousand from west brom. If we are worse perhaps because our roi is less than other fans, think we paid the most per home prem goal last season by way of illustration.

You see that's where you are wrong. It's not a case of one particular issue but a multitude of factors, recently the negative atmosphere plays more of a part because in the times you referred to we had something which was difficult to ignore and that was our players were by and large shit, especially when compared to the top teams. At that stage success would have been measured by a top 7 finish, so I think we have certainly progressed from that time.

As I mentioned our problems aren't just one factor but many including:

1) Poor support from the fans
2) Lack of stability / consistency in terms of structure and management
3) Lack of experience winning in terms of the collective
4) Lack of experience winning in terms of stand out individuals
5) Lack of money compared to the top teams

Of course quality fits into many of those, but sometimes quality has to be built through them too. We're in the unfortunate position where we can;t go and and throw money at things to fix it all so we have to be more smart in achieving them.

Fixing one of the above may not necessarily fix everything, but it would make a difference, however fixing 2 or more would make a substantial difference.

I also think your comment about Hoddle and the fans is slightly wide of the mark. Admittedly the atmosphere was on the whole was much better but rather than being a significant change it;s been sliding or deteriorating gradually. For example I remember the destruction of both Richards and Doc (during Hoddle's time). However I do remember some stand out memories (including Hodds first match against his former club Southampton).

Furthermore its easy to hide behind other clubs being just as poor, and we've seen Mourinho come out in the last few days, however that just compounds things, because they have (2), (3), (4) and (5) to fall back on, where as we don't.

 

[StockSpur]

why did we sell sandro, i just dont understand that decision, he has lapses in passing but ffs, he has more heart than half our squad at the moment..

 

[DaSpurs]

why did we sell sandro, i just dont understand that decision, he has lapses in passing but ffs, he has more heart than half our squad at the moment..

Because he can barely even get on the pitch. That decision I have no qualms with, but I do have qualms with Poch's idea of attacking solutions.

 

[DaSpurs]

If it were me in charge, I'd sell whatever it took including the stadium to be able to bring in Milner. Would be a massive injection of everything we need right now.

 

[Jody]

The fact that we're still singing about sol Cambell says it all for me. Fans living in the past, dreaming of past glories rather than getting real and getting behind the team.

 

[Mullers]

If someone expected us to win every game, they'd be completely mad.

If Man United (in Ferguson's era) didn't expect to win every game, they'd be showing a lack of ambition.

You have to be able to win every game before you can expect to win every game!

No player should go out there not expecting to win every game they play, if they don't play to win there is no point in them playing at all.

 

[Kendall]

I just don't think our players have faith in each other.

 

[Kendall]

The fact that we're still singing about sol Cambell says it all for me. Fans living in the past, dreaming of past glories rather than getting real and getting behind the team.

Yup. That **** is long retired and left the club well over a decade ago. How sad is that?