Mental weakness at Spurs

[TaoistMonkey]

Nothing to do with fans the fans mentality at spurs,which is stronger than anyone else with having to put up with the shit we do.
Using fans or pitches as an excuse for the problems at the club are weak excuses so please next.

Ever heard of emotional abuse?

 

[Nebby]

Is there a systemic problem at the club? How does it manifest itself? Who's to blame? If it does exist, how do we change it?

To me it's pretty simple. We are a middle tier team, therefore we attract middle tier players. And what separates a middle tier player from an elite player is mental strength. It's the same in all sports.

So, if we were to receive a massive injection of cash, we would buy more elite players and the mental fragility that blights the team would disappear.

 

[Gassin's finest]

On the issue of crowd malaise, its been much publicised about Maureen being unimpressed with the atmosphere these days:

http://www.football365.com/john-nicholson/9547485/John-Nicholson

Stamford Bridge going through periods of being like a morgue is unexceptional, Old Trafford has long been so quiet you can hear the barcode scanner bleep in the club shop. Arsenal, at times, is almost silent, presumably out of fear of lowering the house prices around north London.

Liverpool, once a cauldron of aural intimidation, now goes so quiet you can hear Brendan Rodgers rehearsing an aphorism. The noisily manic joy and heartbreak that was Manchester City fans' historical attitude to their travails at Maine Road appears to have evaporated at the Etihad. The only consistent noise at White Hart Lane is the sound of grumbling complaint. Even St James Park isn't what it once was. The low hum of discontent and barely suppressed fury mixed has replaced the electric atmosphere of the mid 90s.

It's nothing to do with just us being moany sods since the Redknapp days...

 

[cliff jones]

You see that's where you are wrong. It's not a case of one particular issue but a multitude of factors, recently the negative atmosphere plays more of a part because in the times you referred to we had something which was difficult to ignore and that was our players were by and large shit, especially when compared to the top teams. At that stage success would have been measured by a top 7 finish, so I think we have certainly progressed from that time.

As I mentioned our problems aren't just one factor but many including:

1) Poor support from the fans
2) Lack of stability / consistency in terms of structure and management
3) Lack of experience winning in terms of the collective
4) Lack of experience winning in terms of stand out individuals
5) Lack of money compared to the top teams

Of course quality fits into many of those, but sometimes quality has to be built through them too. We're in the unfortunate position where we can;t go and and throw money at things to fix it all so we have to be more smart in achieving them.

Fixing one of the above may not necessarily fix everything, but it would make a difference, however fixing 2 or more would make a substantial difference.

I also think your comment about Hoddle and the fans is slightly wide of the mark. Admittedly the atmosphere was on the whole was much better but rather than being a significant change it;s been sliding or deteriorating gradually. For example I remember the destruction of both Richards and Doc (during Hoddle's time). However I do remember some stand out memories (including Hodds first match against his former club Southampton).

Furthermore its easy to hide behind other clubs being just as poor, and we've seen Mourinho come out in the last few days, however that just compounds things, because they have (2), (3), (4) and (5) to fall back on, where as we don't.

No I don't see where I'm wrong. You didn't need to type that out again. Overall I agree with your point, but not with what I believed you were saying about the fans creating a constantly negative atmosphere over the past two decades. There have been exceptions, even if the recent trend, 1882 aside, is alarming. Chill.

 

[shelfboy68]

Ever heard of emotional abuse?

Yes i have we certainly go through enough of it like yesterday dont know how we got away with it.

 

[Nocando]

The fact that we're still singing about sol Cambell says it all for me. Fans living in the past, dreaming of past glories rather than getting real and getting behind the team.

Well yes but at least they're singing. It's the ones moaning and groaning but then complain about singing these songs that are worse.

 

[dontcallme]

Hang on a second, I never said they were bad people! I think it's a combination of the football we expect and that there a few holidaymakers in the crowd, but also just the general culture of the fans at games. We don't have to be entirely happy with the way our club does it's business, but we're called supporters for a reason - if there was some kind of mass movement to get behind the team more vocally at home matches I'm sure there would be a benefit to the performances on the pitch.

Yes we are called supporters for a reason rather than blind followers. The fans put a lot of money and time into the club.

We could have a mass movement to get the fans more vocal or we could look into why they are unhappy. I've already outlined why I think they are unhappy. I think it is the board's job to make the fans want to support the team rather than telling them to eat shit and like it.

 

[Darrkespur]

Yes we are called supporters for a reason rather than blind followers. The fans put a lot of money and time into the club.

We could have a mass movement to get the fans more vocal or we could look into why they are unhappy. I've already outlined why I think they are unhappy. I think it is the board's job to make the fans want to support the team rather than telling them to eat shit and like it.

And I think it's a supporter's job, when at the stadium, to cheer their team on, no matter how bad they are. I can see you believe different, but for most football clubs, that's how it works. We may be lagging behind 5 or 6 teams with more money than us, but we're doing pretty well compared to most. If our performances improve by even 1% because we get behind the team, then I think we should be getting behind the team. I have no problem with disagreeing with the board's approach in supporter's meetings and the like, but voicing displeasure to the board during a game and negatively affecting the team isn't helping anyone.

 

[ultimateloner]

I think most of it is just confidence with what you can do. E.g naughton and Kaboul hoof the ball out because both are uncomfortable with the ball when pressed. Vert doesn't have the same problem. I don't think u can coach these things out of players. They simply aren't good enough for top 4 fball

 

[lukespurs7]

Growing up it felt like Spurs were truly one of the top clubs in England. My first memory is 1991 where we won our 8th FA Cup, the most at that time when people really cared about it. We also had Gazza and Linekar who were huge stars coming off 1990 World Cup, though obviously Linekar was already huge.

Many of the fans at the game have seen some great honours won and some great players, expectations are huge.

I don't look at the fans as negatively as some on here. Truly talented but flawed players like Ginola and Berbatov can become fan favourites as can players with lower ability levels but always put everything into the game such as Freund.

I really believe this factor should be considered when buying players. Buying technically good players who appear to disappear when the going gets tough and don't have the ability of a true top player results in them being turned on.

I think the players at Spurs need to have a big personality to make it at Spurs. Redknapp identified this, as did Jol but their squads were ripped apart by their successor and while we were happy with the higher quality players we didn't actually progress as a club.

So we can blame the fans if we like but that doesn't solve the issue. The best way past it is to start looking into the characters of the players as a much higher factor when delving into the transfer market.

You've got to buy players who are the right fit and that isn't just about formation.

Agree with this especially about the Jol and Redknapp squads getting ripped apart. Those two actually built squads with players who had character and made us a 'team' hence why under those two we were generally hard to beat and gave the big boys a run for their money most games. However now we have a mish mash bunch of average players with the wrong attitude = we get spanked time and again.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

I wonder if there's a bit of truth to this. I only go to the Lane a couple of times a season but I was at the Newcastle game last week and was amazed how quiet and negative the atmosphere was - as if the stadium was waiting for the team to impress them rather than getting behind them. I also go to some Swansea games as it's my hometown and the difference is remarkable - the Swans fans are always singing, have songs for every player and make far more noise.

I think having a good supportive atmosphere at your home ground can make a huge difference - just look at the results Stoke have at home compared to away. There does seem to be an attitude at WHL (not so much away) that it's up to the team to play well and the crowd will applaud them when they do - you'd have to think it would have an effect on the players.

Is that because Spurs fans pay heaps more to watch ? That they pay so much they expect to be entertained rather than be the reason the team plays well or not ?

 

[HotspurFC1950]

No need for a fall out mate, my intention was just to try to understand your point. I will try my best to enjoy the game, thanks.

In regards to my earlier post

QUOTE="Dr Know, post: 4309611, member: 16228"]Well the only thing not to have changed in the last 20 odd years is the fans....................so maybe we should start looking there??

I feel the problem may be the expectation of the fans. I've read quotes on here about fans having the right to boo as they've paid the money. Question is, does this really help? Even when we win by only 1 goal to a team that are on a bad run, the fans still moan, forgetting we've just got 3 points. How do we change this mentality? I don't think we can and that's why I feel we'll always be in this position regardless of who manages the club[/QUOTE]


Who manages the team or who owns/runs the Club ?

 

[HotspurFC1950]

To me it's pretty simple. We are a middle tier team, therefore we attract middle tier players. And what separates a middle tier player from an elite player is mental strength. It's the same in all sports.

So, if we were to receive a massive injection of cash, we would buy more elite players and the mental fragility that blights the team would disappear.

Hear hear.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Agree with this especially about the Jol and Redknapp squads getting ripped apart. Those two actually built squads with players who had character and made us a 'team' hence why under those two we were generally hard to beat and gave the big boys a run for their money most games. However now we have a mish mash bunch of average players with the wrong attitude = we get spanked time and again.

Did they actually buy those players ?

 

[SpurSince57]

Agree with this especially about the Jol and Redknapp squads getting ripped apart. Those two actually built squads with players who had character and made us a 'team' hence why under those two we were generally hard to beat and gave the big boys a run for their money most games. However now we have a mish mash bunch of average players with the wrong attitude = we get spanked time and again.

I'm glad you added in 'generally', otherwise some unkind souls might accuse you of rewriting history. The start of the 2006-07 season, for instance, was quite as poor as this one, with Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Mido scoring just three goals between them in the first ten games. As for giving the big boys 'a run for their money', no, we, didn't, not under BMJ, at any rate.

The fact is, we've always had a tendency to cave in. I can remember us going in at half-time against Villa 5-0 up, and then folding completely in the second half. But for a last-minute goal-line clearance by Mullery, it would have ended up 5-6. That was in 1966, under Nicholson.

 

[DiscoD1882]

with regards to fans expectation. you are paying the equivilant each week of going to see a concert at the O2. If you went to a concert you would expect to be fully entertained. We the fans have been treated to the equivilant of a S Club 7 reunion tour for the last 3-4 years. Now dont get me wrong. I like Rachael Stevens. But the rest of them can F**k off. That is spurs at the moment. S Club 7. im off to bask in my literary glow for a while.

 

[SteveH]

We need more fizz from the players.

Ade (I'm a fan), Dembele, Eriksen (I like..), Paulinho and Capoue all lack that "vavavoom". Our build up play is like watching damp spreading up a wall. We must show urgency and more energy.







[comedy 'attempt' WARNING] We need Bucks Fizz not "S Club 7"

 

[Kiedis]

This was why a I liked our 2012/2013 team. They did develop a never say die-attitude, and come back to win or draw numerous times. The way we bossed a Ferguson Man United team at WHL (despite not winning), whacked Arsenal at the Lane and went to Stamford Bridge and came back from being a goal down twice was gritty stuff.

Mr. Nice Guy Michael Dawson almost tearing Clattenburg a new arsehole and scaring him to the point that he didn't even get a yellow card home against Arsenal was a welcome change from what I've been used to as a Spurs supporter. And, no. All of that wasn't down to Bale (not to underestimate his contribution).

Up until Boxing Day, Sandro, Dembele and Lennon were our main men. Defoe had ten goals by the end of october (methinks?) and the team were a gritty bunch.

Especially Dembele has disappointed me after that season. He was the bees knees in the first half of the season and then basically carried our central midfield after Sandro got injured. Hasn't really kicked on...

 

[VegasII]

"I didn't believe in weakness...but..."

 

[robin09]

I've said it for years, but we don't have that nasty streak, that most successful clubs have.

We're always near the top of the fair play league. I don't see how that's really benefited us, except being a meaningless badge of honour.

We don't berate the ref when decisions go against us, unlike Chelsea, United, City who crowd around the ref and probably end up getting the majority of decisions following it.

We don't wind up the opposition to get them sent off. The one example of us doing it, is actually last weekend when Mason and Lamela were a bit physical with Benteke. It paid off.

Not that I agree with us starting this but, we don't dive cynically to earn penalties. Look at Liverpool last season, Suarez was constantly going down, Gerrard scored 9 or 10 penalties in the League, the difference between top 4 and top 5. Liverpool even did it to us at home this season, Dier judged to have given away a pen when it was a clear dive. Right or wrong, it earns you more penalties and points than it does bookings. Real Madrid and Barca are masters of earning penalties.

Also, as fans, we're too highly strung. The players have all said how good the away support is consistently. It's because there's a smaller, vocal group who are going to sing no matter the result. They're there to enjoy themselves. Which in turn, must be a more liberating atmosphere to play in than the quiet tension of the home games where a misplaced pass is followed by thousands of 'aaaaaaaaargh, come on!' screams.

If we want to be a top team, we have to act like a top team, and we don't.