Player Ratings and MOTM for Bolton

[Bus-Conductor]

Walker was also very good just needs to work on that delivery, he engineers fantastic space for himself.

Agree with all of that Mr P.

BC's ratings are about right for me - no need for the constant criticism of Walker's technique in every single game though!

For the most part Walker did defend well, but in reality he didn't have a lot of defending to do. We had 68% of the ball, he won't get easier games, will he ? Ekotto defended just as well and I didn't single his defending out either for the same reason. When we've been tested Walker has often been found wanting and has cost us goals in nearly ever big game this season (Chelsea, ManC, Arse, ManU). I think he was also caught ball watching for last nights goal.

Every game he runs his heart out. I credit that. His pace gets him out of trouble defensively and he often defends pretty well. I get that. But against Chelsea for example he saw half the ball Ekotto did, and when he got into good positions he invariably wasted them. Same last night. He over ran the ball because of poor control - and he does that a lot - he has a habit of making at least one or two really poor passes when he's charged up field and we are on the attack, creating a problem for us defensively. He rarely beats his man - even Ekotto manages this with a jink and a shoulder drop.

Other players make mistakes, but the fundamentals are there. If I constantly point out that Walker has relatively poor technique and that for all the "great positions" he gets himself into he hardly makes any of them count, it might just be because they are fundamental issues that shouldn't be ignored because he has fast legs and gets into those positions.

Defensively he is the only option for us right now. He has a great attitude (where have we heard that before) and pace in spades. But IMO he is the weakest link in our current set up. He lacks wit, craft and his technique leaves a lot to be desired.

I honestly do not see why others are so keen to constantly defend his deficiencies. He offers very little in the class dept. and has cost us several important goals. Hutton would be getting crucified now for less, and did.

VDV shot on goal was a bad miss rather than a good save - see Bale's goal for example.

VDV could have done better but Bale's was a good finish. All our players missed good chances or got things wrong at crucial times last night, but the important thing is we created proper quality chances. Same against Chelsea.

We keep playing like that, we will win games.

Ade did well occupying their defenders - i sometimes wonder if his reputation and presence is more effective than what he does with the ball. Livermores passing was fantastic, some real pinpoint balls cut through midfield, and you can see that him and Walker have built a good relationship over the years building up to first team action. I wonder how much input Hudd is having in training, despite being crocked. Modric works sooo fucking hard, it's unreal the amount of times he's the one closing down everything in midfield, but Bale needs to work harder to find space on whichever flank he's playing down - without Lennon there is no balance for him, granted, but constantly drifting inside means someone has to cover and the team loses its shape. No complaints over our defence last night really, Nelsen looked confident and made a few nice pushes up the field, Ledley had a relatively quiet night and was only really stretched once with a great ball that lead to their goal. Parker was quiet, VDV worked really hard as well, but spends too much time in our half facing our goal - We have enough across the middle to play in that role if needed, get up the field and let Livermore/Parker play that role, make yourself available for crying out loud, you're better going the other way! :lol:

Bogdan, I know divides opinion, but every great keeper has a moment when they start finding their talent, but it will come in fits and starts. Last night was a great example of a keeper having a proper form game, helped on ocassion by us thumping it square into his belly, but generally looking like he's developing into a very competent keeper. They identified early that they needed to close out the flanks and did that well, forcing our only real chances to come from either awkward crosses (which everyone knows we suck at) or for the ball to be cut inside, and to be fair, their defenders worked hard without conceding much until the fatigue started setting in.

Still drives me nuts that we've reverted to playing such unattractive football for large chunks of the match though. Last night i saw runs being made by Livermore, Walker, Bale, Disco & Rafa, really promising looking lines, but instead we pass backwards and the momentum grinds to a halt. It's as if without Lennon the team are scared to attack the same fast, confident way we were lauded for earlier in the season. I honestly think, if we played with a bit more ambition to reach higher rather than the fear of failing then it'd benefit the entire squad and we'd start seeing the scorelines we were getting used to.

Was the right result though in the end.

Wow, sometimes it is genuinely like I have watched a completely different game.

Modric closing everything down, Livermore's demonic possession by Huddelstone, their defenders didn't concede much, unattractive football for large chunks of the match ?

Spooky.

 

[camaj]

Voted for Bale.

Can't believe the high scores for Adebayor though! He doesn't really offer much, when he does get the ball he's afraid to shoot ffs! He had one weak shot which the MOTM keeper made a right hash of and no one was there to follow that up. It's been the same thing for months now, poor finishing and shirking his responsibility. Nelson scored the goal that essentially won us the match and only one person gave him a higher rating than Adebayor who did next to nothing.

Walker was at fault for their goal too, didn't bother picking up the scorer. You could argue that Nelson had him covered but he didn't and that's why Walker should have been there

 

[Spurs_Bear]

:lol:

I totally agree BC......but I wasn't sure if RSS was joshing or not?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I know people will think its because I rate Livermore, but I thought he was very good tonight.

I think he was more than econimical with his passing at times, in fact it was expansive on occasion, one ball to Walker down the right was sublimely weighted.

The irony here Mr P, is that Livermore's game is like a slightly less dynamic version of Jenas's in many, many ways. Economic passing, the odd great pass (remember when I used to give you examples of these from Jenas to prove he was capable of expansive passing). Jenas regularly saw more ball and gave it away less than anyone else in our team. He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent. He also got round the pitch better than anyone (this was of course back in the day - before Parker, before rampant Bale, Modric was a LM, No Adebayor or VDV either). And Jenas was invariably played in 442, in a cm2. How good would Livermore look in the type of set up Jenas regularly played in for us.

I'm really struggling to understand why you rate Livermore so highly, yet didn't rate Jenas ?

 

[charliemouse]

I actually thought Modric was pretty poor last night and at times really did not seem at all interested and was letting him the game pass him by.

VDV though never stopped running , was always looking for the ball and moving into space and apart from his miss had a really good game.

 

[camaj]

Jenas regularly saw more ball and gave it away less than anyone else in our team. He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent. He also got round the pitch better than anyone (this was of course back in the day - before Parker, before rampant Bale, Modric was a LM, No Adebayor or VDV either). And Jenas was invariably played in 442, in a cm2. How good would Livermore look in the type of set up Jenas regularly played in for us.

I'm really struggling to understand why you rate Livermore so highly, yet didn't rate Jenas ?

Maybe because he's judging JJ on what he actually did rather than what he was capable of? Lets assume your points are true:

-JJ saw more of the ball and gave it away less
Giving the ball away is bad but not giving the ball away isn't going to win you matches. If you were winning you could bring someone like that on to kill the game

-He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent
He could, and from time to time he even did it. What he can do isn't important.

-He also got round the pitch better than anyone
Another thing that's not really that important. It's not about running it's making the right run at the right time. There were plenty of times where he didn't make runs that would have got us in a better position but he held his ground.

Livermore looks a lot better. Of course he could turn out to be a massive disappointment but right now he seems like he's willing to battle for balls and he's got a fair bit of pace too. Comparing Livermore now to Jenas now it's a no brainer, time will tell who was the best player.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Maybe because he's judging JJ on what he actually did rather than what he was capable of? Lets assume your points are true:

-JJ saw more of the ball and gave it away less
Giving the ball away is bad but not giving the ball away isn't going to win you matches. If you were winning you could bring someone like that on to kill the game AGREE

-He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent
He could, and from time to time he even did it. What he can do isn't important. AGREE

-He also got round the pitch better than anyone
Another thing that's not really that important. It's not about running it's making the right run at the right time. There were plenty of times where he didn't make runs that would have got us in a better position but he held his ground. AGREE

Livermore looks a lot better. ERM....NO. LIKE REALLY, NO. Of course he could turn out to be a massive disappointment but right now he seems like he's willing to battle for balls and he's got a fair bit of pace too. Comparing Livermore now to Jenas now it's a no brainer, time will tell who was the best player.

.

 

[sloth]

I thought that was one of our best performances of the year, before RSS's contribution below I was going to come on here with a big 'case proved' kind of post.

What I think RSS's post shows is that ultimately we all have completely different ideas of what constitutes the beautiful game. I loved the control, the inter-change of passes, the smart movement, the complete mastery of our opponents and even when we were missing chance after chance I was enjoying the game immensely, to the extent that even had it gone against us in some way I'd have been able to handle it. For me, you couldn't have got a more balanced performance then that one last night. But for RSS it was something else and I can see now that the case for 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 as an attacking set-up can never be proven, because in the end, no matter the stats, what counts for me and for RSS is subjective.

The only other thing I'll say is that I have been calling for us to try that precise set-up since the start of the season, (4-2-3-1 with two DM types at the base and specifically Modric in the centre of an AM 3 which also includes VdV primarily on the right and Bale on the left, but also given the licence to roam), and although against Norwich we got something close, this is the first time we've really played it. Harry said yesterday that he thought the system really suits our players. I agree with him, but I wish we'd realised it a bit earlier in the season!!

Ade did well occupying their defenders - i sometimes wonder if his reputation and presence is more effective than what he does with the ball. Livermores passing was fantastic, some real pinpoint balls cut through midfield, and you can see that him and Walker have built a good relationship over the years building up to first team action. I wonder how much input Hudd is having in training, despite being crocked. Modric works sooo fucking hard, it's unreal the amount of times he's the one closing down everything in midfield, but Bale needs to work harder to find space on whichever flank he's playing down - without Lennon there is no balance for him, granted, but constantly drifting inside means someone has to cover and the team loses its shape. No complaints over our defence last night really, Nelsen looked confident and made a few nice pushes up the field, Ledley had a relatively quiet night and was only really stretched once with a great ball that lead to their goal. Parker was quiet, VDV worked really hard as well, but spends too much time in our half facing our goal - We have enough across the middle to play in that role if needed, get up the field and let Livermore/Parker play that role, make yourself available for crying out loud, you're better going the other way! :lol:

Bogdan, I know divides opinion, but every great keeper has a moment when they start finding their talent, but it will come in fits and starts. Last night was a great example of a keeper having a proper form game, helped on ocassion by us thumping it square into his belly, but generally looking like he's developing into a very competent keeper. They identified early that they needed to close out the flanks and did that well, forcing our only real chances to come from either awkward crosses (which everyone knows we suck at) or for the ball to be cut inside, and to be fair, their defenders worked hard without conceding much until the fatigue started setting in.

Still drives me nuts that we've reverted to playing such unattractive football for large chunks of the match though. Last night i saw runs being made by Livermore, Walker, Bale, Disco & Rafa, really promising looking lines, but instead we pass backwards and the momentum grinds to a halt. It's as if without Lennon the team are scared to attack the same fast, confident way we were lauded for earlier in the season. I honestly think, if we played with a bit more ambition to reach higher rather than the fear of failing then it'd benefit the entire squad and we'd start seeing the scorelines we were getting used to.

Was the right result though in the end.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Sloth I still maintain after last night that it was more of your 433 than 4231, although there's essentially a gnat's cock between the two. VdV's position on the 'right' was really nominal and he was more in a free role ala Norwich, and with Parker and Livermore breaking ahead of Modric like they did that's where my base of 3 as opposed to 2 came from.

Much of a muchness though.

 

[Mr Pink]

The irony here Mr P, is that Livermore's game is like a slightly less dynamic version of Jenas's in many, many ways. Economic passing, the odd great pass (remember when I used to give you examples of these from Jenas to prove he was capable of expansive passing). Jenas regularly saw more ball and gave it away less than anyone else in our team. He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent. He also got round the pitch better than anyone (this was of course back in the day - before Parker, before rampant Bale, Modric was a LM, No Adebayor or VDV either). And Jenas was invariably played in 442, in a cm2. How good would Livermore look in the type of set up Jenas regularly played in for us.

I'm really struggling to understand why you rate Livermore so highly, yet didn't rate Jenas ?

First of all its not that I didn't rate Jenas, I thought he was excellent in some games for us but I also thought he was weakish at times as well. Yes he covered every blade of grass as the saying goes and has very good levels of endurance, but for me he was lacking strength in competing for the ball sometimes - I emphasise sometimes.

Obviously you make a valid point regarding the system Jenas was played in for the most part, he would definitely do better in the current set up.

But the first game Livermore really convinced me he had something about him to make it at this level was at home to Everton, and that was 4-4-1-1 beside Modric. He had played plenty of times before that game, but in the Everton game he just looked commanding in central midfield, and had the strength to get on top of the Everton midfield and controlled it very well with Modric (even with VDV being deep at times). Just little things, like turning players in the centre of the pitch, which involved his strength, and pushing forward with the ball....it was good progressive play from the middle of the park, not really eye catching as such, but I noticed it.

He's had some good games since, and lets remember that he's still reasonably young (22?) and can continue to develop.

I think he's more tenacious than Jenas and stronger holding on to the ball and fighting for it. There is no doubt Jenas is a better going forward with the ball though.

An example of Livermore fighting for ball well last night, was down in the corner in the first half, fending off players, kept it in lying on his side (!) and we kept possession. That stuff impresses me, it really does.

He looked more and more confident as the game wore on last night, so I think he'll go on to be a good player at this level and is more than worth his place in this squad at the moment.

Ultimately they're not exactly identical midfielders. In the current 4-3-3, Jenas would be competing with Modric in my eyes (or trying to I should say :wink

 

[Mr Pink]

Sloth had Harry realised it earlier in the season I would say we would probably be about 10 points better off.

 

[sloth]

Maybe because he's judging JJ on what he actually did rather than what he was capable of? Lets assume your points are true:

-JJ saw more of the ball and gave it away less
Giving the ball away is bad but not giving the ball away isn't going to win you matches. If you were winning you could bring someone like that on to kill the game

-He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent
He could, and from time to time he even did it. What he can do isn't important.

-He also got round the pitch better than anyone
Another thing that's not really that important. It's not about running it's making the right run at the right time. There were plenty of times where he didn't make runs that would have got us in a better position but he held his ground.

Livermore looks a lot better. Of course he could turn out to be a massive disappointment but right now he seems like he's willing to battle for balls and he's got a fair bit of pace too. Comparing Livermore now to Jenas now it's a no brainer, time will tell who was the best player.

I think what you're getting at here - and I agree - is how a player handles pressure, his decision making (the two together which might be part of what is also called 'mentality', I guess), and his vision.

For me, whatever Jenas' statistically measurable attributes, he was let down in all three of the above areas. So was Palacios at times. And Huddlestone.

We haven't seen enough of Livermore yet to come to any conclusion one way or another, but I think he looks promising.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Bale has been magnificent the last few games, MOM easily again, really in the mood long may it continue.
Azza back replacing one of the holding players and i can't see anything but a great run in.

 

[Kalim]

Maybe because he's judging JJ on what he actually did rather than what he was capable of? Lets assume your points are true:

-JJ saw more of the ball and gave it away less
Giving the ball away is bad but not giving the ball away isn't going to win you matches. If you were winning you could bring someone like that on to kill the game

-He could also run with the ball and beat an opponent
He could, and from time to time he even did it. What he can do isn't important.

-He also got round the pitch better than anyone
Another thing that's not really that important. It's not about running it's making the right run at the right time. There were plenty of times where he didn't make runs that would have got us in a better position but he held his ground.

Livermore looks a lot better. Of course he could turn out to be a massive disappointment but right now he seems like he's willing to battle for balls and he's got a fair bit of pace too. Comparing Livermore now to Jenas now it's a no brainer, time will tell who was the best player.

All said and done Jenas was a full England international, not the best of his generation, but up there. Problem was we all knew what he was capable of but got frustrated when he didnt deliver.

 

[nightgoat]

Nelsen - 8 - Made some key tackles, interceptions and headers. To cap it off scored the opener, MOTM.

Someone posted the other day saying something like Nelsen hadn't done a single good thing in a Spurs shirt. Which was wrong anyway, but definitely wrong now.

 

[sparx100]

I voted for Bale as MOTM, but Nelsen ran a close 2nd.

I was/am still uncertain as to why we brought Nelsen in and shipped Bassong out. I can see the pro's (the leadership, experience etc), but I still think that Bassong had something to offer to us in this campaign - Its a shame, as now Bassong will be out, and we will need to replace him for the long term.

I was fortunate to get to the game last night and although there was not that much coming at us, I was concerned prior to the game to have 2 slow CB's. I should not have worried. Not only did we turn in an excellent performance, but Nelsen did show the qualities that Harry saw in him - this is why I am a fan, and not a manager!

Nelsen dealt with everything comfortably. He passes simple - does not resort to the hoof upfield (I think he may have done this once..). He is commanding in the air (won a lot of the aerial tussles and his physicality was excellent). Obviously his presence for our corners resulted in a goal for him. I actually felt some of our corners were worthwhile - I felt that Nelsen added a bit of purpose behind our set piece threat.

What I did notice was the talking he was doing through the game. He was alongside Ledley, but was always talking to make sure the shape was good. Surprisingly, he showed a good turn of pace to cover across for Ledley who was caught flatfooted and made the appropriate tackle cleanly.

Granted the opposition were poor (we made them look that way), but you can only beat what is in front of you, and I have to admit, I am happy to take back the criticism I placed on Nelsen. Seems a genuine guy and a teamplayer.

 

[pablo73]

I think what you're getting at here - and I agree - is how a player handles pressure, his decision making (the two together which might be part of what is also called 'mentality', I guess), and his vision.

For me, whatever Jenas' statistically measurable attributes, he was let down in all three of the above areas. So was Palacios at times. And Huddlestone.

We haven't seen enough of Livermore yet to come to any conclusion one way or another, but I think he looks promising.

Completely concur.

 

[gregga]

Sloth I still maintain after last night that it was more of your 433 than 4231, although there's essentially a gnat's cock between the two. VdV's position on the 'right' was really nominal and he was more in a free role ala Norwich, and with Parker and Livermore breaking ahead of Modric like they did that's where my base of 3 as opposed to 2 came from.

Much of a muchness though.

I agree. Modders wasn't interchanging much with Bale or VdV which for me is the defining characteristic of a 4-2-3-1. He may have been slightly ahead of Livermore and Parker but then that's to be expected as you would never play a flat 3 across midfield.

Not that it really matters how we define it. The main thing is that the system worked, although I still thought Bale was too narrow at times and we lacked that outlet.

Bale is effective on the right when he cuts in and shoots but it was frustrating to see him beat his man when on the right but then be unable to fizz in a good cross as his right foot isn't up to scratch.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Cudicini didn't have much to do, but was fine when he had to leave his line once or twice.

Walker had another very good game, his energy, pace and attitude are all sublime and his decision making and reading of the game seems to be getting better each match. A touch slow to try to cross once or twice but otherwise I was very happy.

Nelson scored a great headed goal and was good defensively, showing far more pace than I had thought him capable of. I'm a little less nervous about him playing now.

King was good, he was steady and he dealt with most things, but he does get turned more these days and that's something that never used to happen.

Ekotto was pretty much superb in everything he did, but we are talking about the greatest footballer ever known to mankind here.

Livermore should start our next game on merit. He's a little more attacking than Parker and Sandro, and better on the ball than both. He played some nice passes, created space with some good work on the ball and off it showed his usual energy. He seems up to speed the last few games, not something I'd have said early this season.

Parker going forward is a non event, but defensively he is so good. Some of his tackles and interceptions are vital and the way he falls into our defence to make sure we're not short at the back during attacks makes it so much easier for the rest of the side to bomb forward.

Modric was brilliant, back to his normal self. Some of his dribbling and passing were amazing. He's not seeing quite as much of the ball as he would in a two man midfield, but at least by being central again he's influencing play again. Never again on the flank please!

VDV, barring one missed chance, was amazing. His use of the ball, passing and ability to create space is exquisite. The through ball for Adebayor was genius and his ball retention is second to none. I can't remember him wasting one pass. Great to see his corners (and one free kick) actually having effect and causing danger, I hope this remains a constant as the value of good set pieces was proven last night.

Bale was fantastic, he thoroughly deserved his goal and it's a joy to watch him playing like this. A few selfish moments but he tortured their defence and he was just unstoppable when he started running.

Adebayor found his touch again, he stretched their defence, he worked his arse off and, in particular one for VDV, played some lovely passes. Wish he'd scored but otherwise there's no complaints.

Defoe came on, immediately had a great shot (which sparked the series of corners from which he scored our first), made the Bale goal on the counter attack and was very lively. Yes, he was selfish twice, but he did play well.

Rose came on and did a decent job, nothing too memorable in either direction.

Saha scored an absolutely cracking goal.

 

[DanNolan]

In total agreement with bblg