Player Ratings and MOTM for Bolton

[Bus-Conductor]

First of all its not that I didn't rate Jenas, I thought he was excellent in some games for us but I also thought he was weakish at times as well. Yes he covered every blade of grass as the saying goes and has very good levels of endurance, but for me he was lacking strength in competing for the ball sometimes - I emphasise sometimes.

Obviously you make a valid point regarding the system Jenas was played in for the most part, he would definitely do better in the current set up.

But the first game Livermore really convinced me he had something about him to make it at this level was at home to Everton, and that was 4-4-1-1 beside Modric. He had played plenty of times before that game, but in the Everton game he just looked commanding in central midfield, and had the strength to get on top of the Everton midfield and controlled it very well with Modric (even with VDV being deep at times). Just little things, like turning players in the centre of the pitch, which involved his strength, and pushing forward with the ball....it was good progressive play from the middle of the park, not really eye catching as such, but I noticed it.

He's had some good games since, and lets remember that he's still reasonably young (22?) and can continue to develop.

I think he's more tenacious than Jenas and stronger holding on to the ball and fighting for it. There is no doubt Jenas is a better going forward with the ball though.

An example of Livermore fighting for ball well last night, was down in the corner in the first half, fending off players, kept it in lying on his side (!) and we kept possession. That stuff impresses me, it really does.

He looked more and more confident as the game wore on last night, so I think he'll go on to be a good player at this level and is more than worth his place in this squad at the moment.

Ultimately they're not exactly identical midfielders. In the current 4-3-3, Jenas would be competing with Modric in my eyes (or trying to I should say :wink

Personally I would say Jenas would be a very good option as a true box to box midfielder when played with Sandro and Modric in a 3, or in a 2 with Sandro in a 4231 with Modric in the 3. Just my take, but realise it possibly won't happen.

In general I don't think Livermore has anything, including strength or tenacity on Jenas, I don't think Livermore better at getting a foot in or better at protecting the ball. But again just my opinion.

I don't mind Livermore, squads need Livermore's. But what I don't get is some on here lauding his contribution, are the same who absolutely caned Jenas despite IMO putting many, many performances that were at least as good and on many days better than Livermore has.

I loved the control, the inter-change of passes, the smart movement, the complete mastery of our opponents and even when we were missing chance after chance I was enjoying the game immensely, to the extent that even had it gone against us in some way I'd have been able to handle it. 4-2-3-1 with two DM types at the base and specifically Modric in the centre of an AM 3 which also includes VdV primarily on the right and Bale on the left, but also given the licence to roam), and although against Norwich we got something close, this is the first time we've really played it. Harry said yesterday that he thought the system really suits our players. I agree with him, but I wish we'd realised it a bit earlier in the season!!

I felt exactly the same about that game. It must be what it's been like to be an Arsenal fan for the last few years. Just sit back and enjoy the show.

Sloth I still maintain after last night that it was more of your 433 than 4231, although there's essentially a gnat's cock between the two. VdV's position on the 'right' was really nominal and he was more in a free role ala Norwich, and with Parker and Livermore breaking ahead of Modric like they did that's where my base of 3 as opposed to 2 came from.

Much of a muchness though.

I was convinced it was 4231 with Modric central of the 3, VDV right. Then Redknapp post match said "yeah, we went wiv the free in midfield again" and I thought, eh ? Was Modric told he was playing in a midfield three ?

 

[Bobbins]

BC - I'm not 'defending' Walker - there's nothing to defend - merely pointing out that you mention his technical weaknesses in pretty much every single match ratings thread, game after game, and you don't need to say it.

We know what you think of him, and his weaknesses, so you don't really need to do anything other than rate his performance as you do with all the other players.

I don't understand why this one aspect of this one player gets picked up on constantly in threads which aren't about marking a player's ability to play the game, but their performance on that one occassion.

I agree with you on the Jenas/Livermore thing, by the way. I can only assume it's because Jake is 'homegrown' and people therefore have a bit of a soft spot for him, and also that he's young, and it's exciting to think that a young player coming through might turn into something special.

I've always rating Jenas quite highly, and Livermore is doing well. But he's not produced performances of the level Jenas regularly did, yet.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I was convinced it was 4231 with Modric central of the 3, VDV right. Then Redknapp post match said "yeah, we went wiv the free in midfield again" and I thought, eh ? Was Modric told he was playing in a midfield three ?

But you're never going to have a 'flat 3' though are you. And with Parker marshalling the defensive side, Livermore buzzing around, and Bolton being incredibly shite, Modric wasn't really required to be too restricted.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

BC - I'm not 'defending' Walker - there's nothing to defend - merely pointing out that you mention his technical weaknesses in pretty much every single match ratings thread, game after game, and you don't need to say it.

We know what you think of him, and his weaknesses, so you don't really need to do anything other than rate his performance as you do with all the other players.

I don't understand why this one aspect of this one player gets picked up on constantly in threads which aren't about marking a player's ability to play the game, but their performance on that one occassion.

I agree with you on the Jenas/Livermore thing, by the way. I can only assume it's because Jake is 'homegrown' and people therefore have a bit of a soft spot for him, and also that he's young, and it's exciting to think that a young player coming through might turn into something special.

I've always rating Jenas quite highly, and Livermore is doing well. But he's not produced performances of the level Jenas regularly did, yet.

But it is that technical weakness that is very fundamental. It is one of the reason's he contributes so little in an attacking sense - despite frequently being in the position to do so.

I don't mention it every game, but it rears it's head a lot. And to be honest, I appreciate your right not to like it (me saying it) but if I see it, there is a good chance I may mention it, because IMO, it's fundamentally important.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But you're never going to have a 'flat 3' though are you. And with Parker marshalling the defensive side, Livermore buzzing around, and Bolton being incredibly shite, Modric wasn't really required to be too restricted.

I would have said, based on how the game unfolded, last night we played:

--------Livermore-----Parker
VDV --------Modric--------Bale
----------Adebayor


Against Chelsea:

---Parker----Sandro---Modric

--VDV------Adebayor-----Bale


What would you have said the default was last night ?

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I would have said, based on how the game unfolded, last night we played:

--------Livermore-----Parker
VDV --------Modric--------Bale
----------Adebayor


Against Chelsea:

---Parker----Sandro---Modric

--VDV------Adebayor-----Bale


What would you have said the default was last night ?

I'd have said it was more

Parker
Livermore Modric
VDV ................... Bale
Adebayor​

I would say Parker dropped far deeper for the most part (a couple of exceptions) and Livermore and Modric were fairly level (maybe Modric a touch more forward) in the most part with Modric concentrating far more on the left and Livermore far more on the right.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I would have said, based on how the game unfolded, last night we played:

--------Livermore-----Parker
VDV --------Modric--------Bale
----------Adebayor


Against Chelsea:

---Parker----Sandro---Modric

--VDV------Adebayor-----Bale


What would you have said the default was last night ?

More Norwich away for me:

- - - - Livermore - - -Parker- - -
- - - - - - - -Modric - - - -- - -
- - -VdV - - - - - - - Bale - - - -
- - - - - - - -Ade - - - - - - - - -

What I saw was Livermore, Parker and Modric interchanging, all breaking ahead of the ball at different times, for example first half Jake broke into the area and had a shot while Parker was back on the halfway, then later on the roles were reversed when Parker got in the box. VdV and Bale only seemed to have nominal positions, they were both all over the place and filling in with everyone. It was great to watch.

 

[gregga]

I would have said, based on how the game unfolded, last night we played:

--------Livermore-----Parker
VDV --------Modric--------Bale
----------Adebayor


Against Chelsea:

---Parker----Sandro---Modric

--VDV------Adebayor-----Bale


What would you have said the default was last night ?

For what it's worth, I believe we lined up like this:

Livermore----Parker
Modric​

VdV--------------Bale
Ade​

 

[Bobbins]

Yeah I'd go with those last two.

What Livermore seems to be getting better and better at, and which is something I'm sure he's learned from Parker, is dropping back into defence to replace a missing player when they're gone forward. Both him and Parker dropped into right-back and centre-back as and when Walker and Nelsen went forward, perfectly positioned and clearly without instruction.

That's great defensive midfield play.

 

[mattyspurs]

Like BC, I thought it was 4231, but whatever it was it was fantastic, fluid football and was a joy to watch, and personally I want more of the same.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Fuck off. It was 433 alright?

 

[mattyspurs]

Yeah yeah

 

[StanSpur]

What a frustrating game.

Parker and VDV were sloppy in the first half, VDV much better in the second but Parker looked fatigued. Benny and Walker played as midfielders, Ady worked hard again and Modric was a mix of brilliance and sloppy. Bale was good when in the right place but too often again his drifting left spaces that benny couldnt release into. Livermore was my MOM, i every time he plays he seems more and more the prem player, i was suspect at first if he could make it but now i see him as a vital member of the squad. Behind Sandro and Parker in that ball winning, energy player but someone who will show up every time he plays which is vital in the squad game. Must keep him. Come on Chelsea time we beat you this season!!

 

[Mr Pink]

Personally I would say Jenas would be a very good option as a true box to box midfielder when played with Sandro and Modric in a 3, or in a 2 with Sandro in a 4231 with Modric in the 3. Just my take, but realise it possibly won't happen.

In general I don't think Livermore has anything, including strength or tenacity on Jenas, I don't think Livermore better at getting a foot in or better at protecting the ball. But again just my opinion.

I don't mind Livermore, squads need Livermore's. But what I don't get is some on here lauding his contribution, are the same who absolutely caned Jenas despite IMO putting many, many performances that were at least as good and on many days better than Livermore has.





I felt exactly the same about that game. It must be what it's been like to be an Arsenal fan for the last few years. Just sit back and enjoy the show.



I was convinced it was 4231 with Modric central of the 3, VDV right. Then Redknapp post match said "yeah, we went wiv the free in midfield again" and I thought, eh ? Was Modric told he was playing in a midfield three ?

Really? That's the one thing that stands out as a difference for me. Jenas is a much more accomplished player in the final third though - at the moment. Livermore reminds me a little of the player/role that Barry plays for City. Not as good yet, but that's the type of player I feel he is capable of turning into. Unspectacular but an important cog to the team. I guess you could say the same about Parker but he's on another level. I thought some of his passing was very good last night, not just economical stuff.

Lets remember one thing though, this is Livermore's first taste of regular first team action at this level and I think overall he's done well and contributed to our season in a positive way.

Lets see if he has progressed this time next season, and we can bump this thread. I'm betting he will.

 

[jamesc0le]

every time Jake passes and makes a great run towards the area for a 1-2 rafa or some other douche decides to pass it backwards or sideways. tossers. he's a good player, pisses all over jenas. they are very similar except he has some hunger, and jenas never had much of this at all.