Style of play

werty

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Sometimes I'm terrible at explaining myself, so this bit in this video perfectly illustrates part of our defensive problems, especially against team that adopt a front five when in possession, something that's becoming more popular thanks to Conte's time here. It was the main reason why I wanted us to go with a back five against City or any team that does something similar. I hadn't seen Arsenal do before yesterday so it's a bit forgivable to not to be ready for it.

It's also another reason why I want us to adopt a similar shape when we have possession.
 

idontgetit

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Issues I see all stem from the back. We don't have right sided wing backs so we can't go three at the back effectively nor can we go with DM who drops into the backline to make it three at the back. The only DM we actually have is Dier who probably is a long way away from top form. I'm not seeing the likes of Foyth touted as DM's so it doesn't seem we have any intentions with that set-up.

Sissoko isn't brilliant on the ball so isn't the ideal bloke to have picking up the ball under pressure in front of our defence and spraying it around. N'Dombele is a bit wasted that deep. Winks is a bit lightweight as defensive cover.

Being a defensive unit just simply isn't our greatest strength anymore, it's a good defence but it's no longer bulletproof. Maybe we should accept that and look at our strengths. Kane, Son and Moura can be fucking lethal plus Alli if he finds form. We've got three incredibly creative players in Eriksen, Lo Celso and N'Dombele plus Winks who's a great pivot. Lets set up to get the best out of them.

What do I mean by that? Move Sissoko out of midfield to right-back where his energy carrying the ball is still really useful and load the midfield with forward-thinking ball players.
 

gavspur

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Dier or Skipp need to come in, cos we really need that anchorman in midfield.
 

punkisback

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Issues I see all stem from the back. We don't have right sided wing backs so we can't go three at the back effectively nor can we go with DM who drops into the backline to make it three at the back. The only DM we actually have is Dier who probably is a long way away from top form. I'm not seeing the likes of Foyth touted as DM's so it doesn't seem we have any intentions with that set-up.

Sissoko isn't brilliant on the ball so isn't the ideal bloke to have picking up the ball under pressure in front of our defence and spraying it around. N'Dombele is a bit wasted that deep. Winks is a bit lightweight as defensive cover.

Being a defensive unit just simply isn't our greatest strength anymore, it's a good defence but it's no longer bulletproof. Maybe we should accept that and look at our strengths. Kane, Son and Moura can be fucking lethal plus Alli if he finds form. We've got three incredibly creative players in Eriksen, Lo Celso and N'Dombele plus Winks who's a great pivot. Lets set up to get the best out of them.

What do I mean by that? Move Sissoko out of midfield to right-back where his energy carrying the ball is still really useful and load the midfield with forward-thinking ball players.
Foyth would make a great DM in our team as he can beat the press and receive the ball under pressure. Shame that the coaching staff don’t see this and think he’s better at RB.
 

SpartanSpur

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Sometimes I'm terrible at explaining myself, so this bit in this video perfectly illustrates part of our defensive problems, especially against team that adopt a front five when in possession, something that's becoming more popular thanks to Conte's time here. It was the main reason why I wanted us to go with a back five against City or any team that does something similar. I hadn't seen Arsenal do before yesterday so it's a bit forgivable to not to be ready for it.

It's also another reason why I want us to adopt a similar shape when we have possession.
I do agree with this, I think back 3 is a must for tough games away at the likes of City, Liverpool and Arsenal. We have proven time and again we have enough in us to score against these sides, and our undoing has been often down to defensive naivety, either through mistakes or not showing enough respect to the opposition.

It was pleasing to see us be willing to change our game up and try to hurt Arsenal at least, which I think that video shows very well. It's not hard to pick up on, lesser teams have been using that tactic against us for a few years now when we play our full backs high. Had our defensive unit been more settled I think we'd have won that game comfortably yesterday.
 

Derp

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The best sequence for me against Arsenal was when Kane hit the post. Not the hitting the post part, but the buildup was something we have lacked for a long time. It’s also something that the two top teams, City and Liverpool, are really good at. It’s imo what sets them apart from the rest of the teams in the league.

Kane received the ball from Lamela and he lays it off to Eriksen with his first touch and immediately makes a run in behind the defense. Eriksen then passes it first time where he knows Kane will run to and Kane gets a perfect shot off.

It’s something we just don’t do a lot of. Our players loves to take multiple touches on the ball or hold on to it for too long. They also really hate making runs and a lot of times they have to look up before the make a pass instead of knowing and trusting teammates to be where they want to pass the ball. Instead we get a lot of passing into the feet of a stationary player. It’s almost like our players think their job is done when they have passed the ball. It should be simple “pass and move”, but it’s just not something we excell at.

When i watch City and Liverpool, their players can pass the ball almost without looking because they know where their teammates run to. It’s like their players are pearls on a string. So when one player does a thing the rest of the team follows.
 

Lighty64

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The best sequence for me against Arsenal was when Kane hit the post. Not the hitting the post part, but the buildup was something we have lacked for a long time. It’s also something that the two top teams, City and Liverpool, are really good at. It’s imo what sets them apart from the rest of the teams in the league.

Kane received the ball from Lamela and he lays it off to Eriksen with his first touch and immediately makes a run in behind the defense. Eriksen then passes it first time where he knows Kane will run to and Kane gets a perfect shot off.

It’s something we just don’t do a lot of. Our players loves to take multiple touches on the ball or hold on to it for too long. They also really hate making runs and a lot of times they have to look up before the make a pass instead of knowing and trusting teammates to be where they want to pass the ball. Instead we get a lot of passing into the feet of a stationary player. It’s almost like our players think their job is done when they have passed the ball. It should be simple “pass and move”, but it’s just not something we excell at.

When i watch City and Liverpool, their players can pass the ball almost without looking because they know where their teammates run to. It’s like their players are pearls on a string. So when one player does a thing the rest of the team follows.
not many defenses give us that room to play those passes. we need to find away of getting an early goal against the bus parkers, to open the game up.

@werty to play a back 5 against teams like Arsenal and Man C do cover the width, but it then means having to either sacrifice a man in the middle or up front which then hinders the attacking option. when we have a fit and firing Dier we can play the 4-2-3-1 as once defending Dier makes it a 5 at the back. we need a player like Dier or Wanyama and even though we have both, neither have been on form or fit enough for the last season, and this one we have just started. Winks or Sissoko are not the answer
 

punkisback

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The best sequence for me against Arsenal was when Kane hit the post. Not the hitting the post part, but the buildup was something we have lacked for a long time. It’s also something that the two top teams, City and Liverpool, are really good at. It’s imo what sets them apart from the rest of the teams in the league.

Kane received the ball from Lamela and he lays it off to Eriksen with his first touch and immediately makes a run in behind the defense. Eriksen then passes it first time where he knows Kane will run to and Kane gets a perfect shot off.

It’s something we just don’t do a lot of. Our players loves to take multiple touches on the ball or hold on to it for too long. They also really hate making runs and a lot of times they have to look up before the make a pass instead of knowing and trusting teammates to be where they want to pass the ball. Instead we get a lot of passing into the feet of a stationary player. It’s almost like our players think their job is done when they have passed the ball. It should be simple “pass and move”, but it’s just not something we excell at.

When i watch City and Liverpool, their players can pass the ball almost without looking because they know where their teammates run to. It’s like their players are pearls on a string. So when one player does a thing the rest of the team follows.
I agree, i also think we have too many players who lose possession or don't make that extra pass in final third. Son, moura and dele are all culpable. When you have too many of those types of players on the pitch they either stand around looking for that final pass too much and do little else; or they lose the ball through poor decision making. I'd like to see Eriksen, Lamela and Lo celso on the pitch together as i feel they would keep the ball and also transition it better.
 

werty

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not many defenses give us that room to play those passes. we need to find away of getting an early goal against the bus parkers, to open the game up.

@werty to play a back 5 against teams like Arsenal and Man C do cover the width, but it then means having to either sacrifice a man in the middle or up front which then hinders the attacking option. when we have a fit and firing Dier we can play the 4-2-3-1 as once defending Dier makes it a 5 at the back. we need a player like Dier or Wanyama and even though we have both, neither have been on form or fit enough for the last season, and this one we have just started. Winks or Sissoko are not the answer
I'd rather sacrifice an attacker than a defender in big games away from home. If we can nullify a teams main attacking threat then we don't need to create as may chances. Our defensive record away to the other big teams is poor.

Besides, less attackers doesn't mean less of an attacking threat. Last season against City we played a back five but opened them up several times on the counter, and defended a lot better in that game than most games we've played against City. It was probably our most controlled game against them since our first against Pep. This season we played a back four and had two shots in the game and we conceded the most shots in a game have since 2011.

Dier or anyone else won't drop into a back four to make it a back five when defending, and we've had the problems shown in the video when we've had him, Wanyama, Dembele or anyone else playing in front of the defence. Our midfielders defend in zones, and teams are taking advantage of our midfielders not getting goal side to create a man advantage that our defenders can't constantly cover.
 

Derp

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not many defenses give us that room to play those passes. we need to find away of getting an early goal against the bus parkers, to open the game up.
Do you think City or Liverpool gets more room? No you create your own room by passing and moving and making off the ball runs. It’s all about tempo and making the defense uncomfortable so the openings will come. No opponent has trouble defending against us when we are just slowly passing it sideways in front af 4 defenders and 5 midfielders...
 

Lighty64

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I'd rather sacrifice an attacker than a defender in big games away from home. If we can nullify a teams main attacking threat then we don't need to create as may chances. Our defensive record away to the other big teams is poor.

Besides, less attackers doesn't mean less of an attacking threat. Last season against City we played a back five but opened them up several times on the counter, and defended a lot better in that game than most games we've played against City. It was probably our most controlled game against them since our first against Pep. This season we played a back four and had two shots in the game and we conceded the most shots in a game have since 2011.

Dier or anyone else won't drop into a back four to make it a back five when defending, and we've had the problems shown in the video when we've had him, Wanyama, Dembele or anyone else playing in front of the defence. Our midfielders defend in zones, and teams are taking advantage of our midfielders not getting goal side to create a man advantage that our defenders can't constantly cover.
the season we finished 2nd to Chelsea which was also Pep's 1st season in the PL, we played with a 3-4-2-1

Toby - Dier - Jan

Walker - Dembele-Wanyama-Rose/Davies

the season before was more of a 2 - 1- 3 - 3 - 1

Toby - Jan

Dier - who would drop into make it a 3 when defending

Walker - Dembele- Rose

when defending we always had a 5 at the back, and both seasons we had our best defensive records, and goals scored. we don't have WB's like that now, but we don't have that defensive rock in midfield. for the last 2 seasons and even so far this season, we haven't had the squad depth due to injuries, and haven't pressed from the front.


Do you think City or Liverpool gets more room? No you create your own room by passing and moving and making off the ball runs. It’s all about tempo and making the defense uncomfortable so the openings will come. No opponent has trouble defending against us when we are just slowly passing it sideways in front af 4 defenders and 5 midfielders...
what I've seen of Liverpool so far, no team has defended as deep against them in any game as Newcastle did to us, and on another day 1 of those 38 crosses would of not been blocked, or missed the chance. with City they are just on a different planet. with City the have pace, power and trickery that cost them an absolute fortune, and cost a lot more in wages
 

werty

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the season we finished 2nd to Chelsea which was also Pep's 1st season in the PL, we played with a 3-4-2-1

Toby - Dier - Jan

Walker - Dembele-Wanyama-Rose/Davies

the season before was more of a 2 - 1- 3 - 3 - 1

Toby - Jan

Dier - who would drop into make it a 3 when defending

Walker - Dembele- Rose

when defending we always had a 5 at the back, and both seasons we had our best defensive records, and goals scored. we don't have WB's like that now, but we don't have that defensive rock in midfield. for the last 2 seasons and even so far this season, we haven't had the squad depth due to injuries, and haven't pressed from the front.
I don't think that second bit is true. He would drop in when we had possession, but when we were out of possession he was in midfield, unless defending a counter or something quick where the full-backs couldn't get back. Any time time the opposition had controlled possession he'd be in midfield alongside Dembele/whoever.

Even it it were true then, he or anyone else hasn't done it for years now anyway.
 

double0

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Our Style of play at it's best is one to marvel just as exciting as Liverpool and Man City. The problem is we don't play to our full potential enough. Off the ball we need to press better, most importantly we need to be far more clinical in front of goal.
 

shelfboy68

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Our Style of play at it's best is one to marvel just as exciting as Liverpool and Man City. The problem is we don't play to our full potential enough. Off the ball we need to press better, most importantly we need to be far more clinical in front of goal.
We know but isn't this a question for poch to answer as it has been going on for long enough and he doesn't appear too worried.
 

double0

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We know but isn't this a question for poch to answer as it has been going on for long enough and he doesn't appear too worried.
I reckon Poch has tried to move players on and wants to integrate fresh blood and within the madness of players not leaving and running contracts down we have an emerging exciting team long term Lloris Son Kane Alli Lo Celso Foyth Sessegnon Clarke KWP Ndombele Son Moura Davies Dier Skipp Winks Parrott Tanganga Lamela ( other development player / signings).

Back to the style of play Poch needs to get back to the press and midfield control
 

danielneeds

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Our Style of play at it's best is one to marvel just as exciting as Liverpool and Man City. The problem is we don't play to our full potential enough. Off the ball we need to press better, most importantly we need to be far more clinical in front of goal.
I disagree. I think we played to the absolute maximum of our potential for the three seasons before the last one, and it wasn’t quite enough to win anything, by hook or by crook.

Poch squeezed the best out of almost all the players. But now, some have gone, some got injury prone, some weren’t quite good enough, and some may have lost their belief or hunger.

That’s why the rebuild is so important. We’re moving towards Poch 3.0 ( I class Poch 1.0 as Mason and Bentaleb, Poch 2.0 as Wanyama and Dembele.) and we really need to up the level significantly if we want to enter the promised land.
 

shelfboy68

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I reckon Poch has tried to move players on and wants to integrate fresh blood and within the madness of players not leaving and running contracts down we have an emerging exciting team long term Lloris Son Kane Alli Lo Celso Foyth Sessegnon Clarke KWP Ndombele Son Moura Davies Dier Skipp Winks Parrott Tanganga Lamela ( other development player / signings).

Back to the style of play Poch needs to get back to the press and midfield control
Can you see this happening for me it looks like he has lost a bit of control from the playing front.
 

double0

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Can you see this happening for me it looks like he has lost a bit of control from the playing front.
I wouldn't say Poch has lost control more like being restricted by the way we Levy operate and has been left to manage the situation ( I don't blame Levy his been absolutely outstanding for this club but we don't move quickly in transfers coming in and out)

The European transfer window was such a disturbance and we were unsure about players staying or leaving there's still players around not fully signed up to the project , I trust Poch to get it right very quickly though
 

Shadydan

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Won't disagree much with that and fine to think that but it comes down whether you're glass half empty or half full.

I just think that patience is needed, let's get Son and Alli back on the pitch before we start the meltdown, let's see if Eriksen stays and contributes this season (it's in his best interests to get his head right as opposed at sulking and play at half intensity) Let's see if the stadium will allow us to build a platform at home and go onto dominate teams, let's see how quick Ndombele, Sessegnon and Lo Celso settle into this team.

Because when you think about it there's much more to come, despite us looking weak towards the end of last season and our performances a lot to be desired we can only go one way and that's up, as I said if we're still playing like this at Xmas we have grounds to be concerned but worrying after playing a full strength/full of confidence City team who will dominate the league isn't the time to do it.
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