Style of play

[Shadydan]

Ok but compare to Man City then then have a clear way of playing and 4-3-3 and If they lose any of their attacking or midfield players they have others who can come in like for like. The fact we play about 10 different formations means we can’t build a like for like squad like lpool and city which means when we don’t for example have son or Kane we look far worse.

I think he should’ve just stick with 4-2-3-1 and could Have the 22 below:

Lloris
Gazzaniga

KWP
Aurier/Foyth

Toby
Jan
Sanchez
Foyth/dier

Rose
Davies

Ndombele
Winks
Wanyama
Dier
Skipp
sissoko

Lucas
Lamela

Erisken
Lo celso

Dele
Son

Kane (son as back up)

Why are we comparing ourselves to Man City? Forget about them they're on a different planet and are playing Harlem Globetrotter football, not one team in the world can compare to them, that's just how it is.

A fair comparison would be Liverpool, similar financial footing now, similar level players, I'd say both teams will be the nearest challengers to City this season. So for comparisons sake Liverpool fans are concerned that their team have been suspect defensively so far this season, in their first 3 matches they've been breached over 40 times for example.

They will of course improve and so will we, we aren't the only ones having teething problems and we're coming off the back of a season where we went downhill, think the fans just need to relax personally.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I have agreed with this for the last couple of seasons. The quality of the football has been scattered at best.

I do however think there are mitigating factors and reasons for that. It's very difficult to play with intensity at Wembley, and Pochettino often had to put square pegs in round holes because of the transfer market shambles and the fact that injuries became very costly as a result.

To come on to your point, I think the answer is to still give him a few months to see where we're at then. It's going to depend on what happens with Eriksen, but should he stay with us I will be judging Pochettino more harshly if by October/November I can't still work out what we are trying to do style wise.

I guess the game to judge will be the reverse fixture against City.

This

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Why are we comparing ourselves to Man City? Forget about them they're on a different planet and are playing Harlem Globetrotter football, not one team in the world can compare to them, that's just how it is.

A fair comparison would be Liverpool, similar financial footing now, similar level players, I'd say both teams will be the nearest challengers to City this season. So for comparisons sake Liverpool fans are concerned that their team have been suspect defensively so far this season, in their first 3 matches they've been breached over 40 times for example.

Ok but again compare to Liverpool they have a clear formation and set way of playing and a squad built for that if Henderson gets injured they have oxlaide chambermaide, if one of front 3 is out they put in origi etc etc. Our squad is great but does poch know how he actually wants to play with us anymore? Not on the evidence of last 2 games no but let’s see where we are Oct/Nov once European window has shut.

 

[SteveH]

Sometimes I find it more stressful being a spurs fan now we’re actually good then when we were shit in the 90’s lol.

Yes
Yesterday though was particularly harrowing and we were dreadful. Spurs have looked a total buggers muddle this season!
Once all the would-be leavers leave I hope things will settle.

 

[Primativ]

If you're using last season as factual evidence that our cohesion is what not it should be then that's fair enough I guess but if you're gonna dismiss the mitigating factors as excuses then that argument is dumb.

Kane, Alli, Eriksen and Son only played 10 (ten) matches together last season, they still haven't played once together this season, for reference Liverpool started without Firmino against Chelsea and their whole team fell apart, this is what tends to happen when you lose vital cogs in your team.

Lets wait till we get those players back on the field before we start the concerns at least.

I've been through our mitigating factors why we went downhill last season enough times on this site, but if you want to ignore the evidence and make them out the be excuses then that's your choice.

That’s all fair enough and we can wait and see. We are all hoping for the upturn in performances, this season there is no reason that shouldn’t happen. Back at WHL, full preseason for the squad etc etc

 

[Shadydan]

Ok but again compare to Liverpool they have a clear formation and set way of playing and a squad built for that if Henderson gets injured they have oxlaide chambermaide, if one of front 3 is out they put in origi etc etc. Our squad is great but does poch know how he actually wants to play with us anymore? Not on the evidence of last 2 games no but let’s see where we are Oct/Nov once European window has shut.

Poch is more versatile than Klopp, we can line up in various formations and change it if needs be, I don't see why this is seen as a bad thing?

Again the last two matches shouldn't be a barometer on how we will fare in the season, we still need to get Dele and Son on the pitch and Ndombele and Lo Celso fully integrated into the team.

I mentioned before Liverpool fell apart when Firmino didn't start against Chelsea, that's one key player, we've had 2 key players out already this season and our front 4 missed 28 league matches playing together which is ridiculous.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Poch is more versatile than Klopp, we can line up in various formations and change it if needs be, I don't see why this is seen as a bad thing?

Again the last two matches shouldn't be a barometer on how we will fare in the season, we still need to get Dele and Son on the pitch and Ndombele and Lo Celso fully integrated into the team.

I mentioned before Liverpool fell apart when Firmino didn't start against Chelsea, that's one key player, we've had 2 key players out already this season and our front 4 missed 28 league matches playing together which is ridiculous.

I’d say it’s a bad thing because klopp has got Liverpool to what 4/5 finals in charge of them and within 2 points of a title off Man City 98 points record total. Having a set system and squad to suit said system works. Sorry but Liverpool’s squad is no better than ours now and we are not currently flexible we are clueless. Poch is a good manager but klopp and pep are great ones who have a successful set way of playing which works and wins things.

Yes obviously we can’t compare to city’s resources but we can to Liverpool’s and he’s rebuilt their team and squad far better than poch has ours, sorry but that’s the absolute truth.

Once the summer window closes poch needs to work out our new identity and get us playing that way week in week out with an occasional plan B if needed.

 

[Giovanni]

I think things will sharpen and improve as far as sharpness and cohesion goes but i just hope it happens sooner rather than later if we are to try and challenge.

Poch has had no son and alli for the start and has needed to rely on lamela who is injury prone to date and an eriksen whos future is un certain. Its hard to build fluidity in such a situation.
I think this season we have incredible cm. N'dombele and lo celso will dice through other cm's and once they are upto speed and paired together more we will sky rocket. We seem to play out from the ball all the time which is great for stretching the pitch but we have lacked being able to make that pass forwards to a highly technical cm like lo celso or n dombele who then transitions us to attack with their quality of ball movement. Winks is quality but he is rather safe and will often play a pass back out to a fullback who then gets penned in and we lose it.

I actually do see what poch is trying to do. Essentially he is looking to make the pitch as big as possible from a gk and split the game into 2 5 aside games. We know that if we win the first 5 aside game and succeed in getting it forwards then we have the pace a quality to get a goal from it. We have thus far struggled to transition the ball.

Once we have our players back id expect poch to push them harder the press and exert more energy in pressing opposition as he will always have 2 or 3 top forward options to bring on later in the game. Defensively we need to tighten up and not leak goals each game.

 

[Shadydan]

I’d say it’s a bad thing because klopp has got Liverpool to what 4/5 finals in charge of them and within 2 points of a title off Man City 98 points record total. Having a set system and squad to suit said system works. Sorry but Liverpool’s squad is no better than ours now and we are not currently flexible we are clueless. Poch is a good manager but klopp and pep are great ones who have a successful set way of playing which works and wins things.

Yes obviously we can’t compare to city’s resources but we can to Liverpool’s and he’s rebuilt their team and squad far better than poch has ours, sorry but that’s the absolute truth.

Once the summer window closes poch needs to work out our new identity and get us playing that way week in week out with an occasional plan B if needed.

Yes exactly so let's not judge after 180 mins of football has been played. You're willing to use these two matches as evidence to say that Liverpool have built their team better than ours is quite simply knee jerk nonsense.

I'm not going through the last season debate again, Liverpool had a better squad than ours and they bought well, no one's disagreeing with that so I don't understand why that keeps being brought up?

As I keep saying but you keee ignoring, get our key players back on the pitch and our new ones up to speed then we can talk.

 

[Johnny J]

Our league form has been atrocious since last January.

But what really worries me is that when I watch us - admittedly not in person - is that we have so little movement and fluency in our play. I watched our players off the ball carefully in the Villa and City games, and a lot of the time they were standing still watching the ball carrier, seemingly waiting for something to happen.

Whereas when you watch Liverpool and City, their players are constantly on the move, creating space for themselves or others and angles for attack.

I also don't understand why Sissoko and Eriksen were played wide yesterday. It didn't work. I thought one reason for the setup was to give KWP protection against Sterling, but Sissoko offered nothing defensively or offensively. Eriksen was similarly anonymous.

I understand we are missing Son and Alli, but surely the absence of two players shouldn't mean our entire playstyle completely falls apart.

Like the OP, I've seen the lethargy and lack of fluency since last Christmas, and although Poch has been fantastic for us, I am concerned about us.

 

[dontcallme]

I have been impressed by Poch’s adaptability.

I was on the fence with regards to his hiring. I thought he might be a strict play systems based manager and install a system regardless of personnel.

When we had Walker and Rose as wing backs and had front four pressing we had a distinctive high pressing style.

We no longer have that but have continued to improve. This is a good thing.

 

[aRTy]

Have to give the new players time to settle, but it does feel like we don't have a style sometimes. We don't close down as a team like we did when poch first joined and we don't knock the ball around like i feel we should. Sometimes it just feels ponderous and then ends up going back to the keeper anyway.

 

[KILLA_SIN]

I think we don't press like we use to because the squad has been too thin and injured to maintain it. We had a strong first team out yesterday brought on Lo Celso and Moura and had Son, Ali, Dier, Verts all dropped. suspended or injured. Given a few weeks I think we begin to see style begin to shape again.

 

[Vincent30]

The hardest choice is the midfield 2, between Sissoko and Winks to partner Ndombele. I don't think we have the players or understand the tactics to go 4-3-3 like Liverpool / City.

For me the current best and most balanced midfield and attack would be the following:

Sissoko Ndombele
Dele/Moura Lo Celso Son
Kane

This is a little harsh on Winks, but i feel Sissoko's power and better defensive qualities will let Ndombele really shine. Also we can rotate against different opponents.

I think people will be hugely surprised at just what Lo Celso can bring in the middle and supporting the attack. So many Eriksen fans on here (don't get me wrong i rate him, but he is so far from world class in my eyes and yesterday again proved this), i think he was woeful and many times on the counter he completely lost the ball. I think with Son back in the team, Lo Celso in the middle in from of the 2CM but also added way more tenacious tackling than Eriksen from that position will be a big benefit to us.

It then leaves one more position that i would probably have Dele starting in, Moura as impact sub. Think that is a really exciting midfield/front line.

 

[theShiznit]

I think our build up play has been laboured for a long while.
Most of our good team play came from winning the ball high up the pitch or the counter attack (against teams that actually attacked us)

The evolution of Kane has meant he no longer charges around up front like his life depended on it to get game time. Also his worrying lack of running means it's difficult to get him into the game as he's usually in areas with 2/3/4 defenders around him.
Also teams know to limit space between the lines keeping narrow against us which leaves hit and hope crosses from the full backs as our main creative outlet and wide forwards creating via beating their man (men) as the other option

And when that space is so squeezed in the final third the movement and passing has to be very intricate and the appreciation of touch and space of some of our attacking players means this can look clumsy playing in the tight areas.

We need to get better at moving the ball quicker side to side having more available options for the man in possession and more dynamic movement and passing.

I am hopeful that Poch's notoriously hard pre season is still in our legs and more dynamism is on the horizon I am also hoping that Lo Celso will make a big difference with his sound touch and dribbling plus inventive passing. (He will still need movement around him though)

Next two or three games will see if we are going in the right direction

 

[shelfboy68]

Our league form has been atrocious since last January.

But what really worries me is that when I watch us - admittedly not in person - is that we have so little movement and fluency in our play. I watched our players off the ball carefully in the Villa and City games, and a lot of the time they were standing still watching the ball carrier, seemingly waiting for something to happen.

Whereas when you watch Liverpool and City, their players are constantly on the move, creating space for themselves or others and angles for attack.

I also don't understand why Sissoko and Eriksen were played wide yesterday. It didn't work. I thought one reason for the setup was to give KWP protection against Sterling, but Sissoko offered nothing defensively or offensively. Eriksen was similarly anonymous.

I understand we are missing Son and Alli, but surely the absence of two players shouldn't mean our entire playstyle completely falls apart.

Like the OP, I've seen the lethargy and lack of fluency since last Christmas, and although Poch has been fantastic for us, I am concerned about us.

Eriksen has many qualities but putting a foot in isn't one of them so I'm not sure why he was deployed out wide to offer protection because as we saw it didn't work.

 

[SteveH]

Style of play?

 

[ljinko888]

For me these were the key principles of Poch's style of play 2014-17:

• 4-2-3-1 Starting Formation
• High defensive line
• Athletic full backs providing width
• Balanced midfield pairing
• The whole team pressed
• Lots of movement in attack

The only aspect that has constantly stayed the same after the last season at the Lane is the high defensive line.

Poch didn't really change the formation in those early years because in his words a formation is just a basic structure when we don't have the ball but in possession can easily become 4-3-3 or 4-4-2 or 4-2-4. But in the last 18 months he has changed that basic structure with his sudden obsession with 3 at the back. That worked for a while initially when it was Dier alongside Vertonghen and Alderweireld because Dier pushed back when the full backs moved up, and pushed up when the full backs stayed back. That was a prime example of a formation changing within game naturally in possession. Dier did it naturally because he is a hybrid player. But Sanchez is a natural defender. He's not going to stroll into the midfield to join the play. When you start Vertonghen, Alderweireld and Sanchez in a 3 at the back shape it will only ever be a 3 at the back shape. And sometimes having that extra defender is a waste of space. It means one less forward for example. Now he is obsessed with the diamond formation.

We know about the full backs. Walker was sold and Rose has been plagued by injuries. In fairness Davies who I really rate as a fine player has done a good job since being elevated to first choice but he's a different style of player. I'd say he has a better final ball than Rose but the difference is Davies might get in a dangerous position to create a chance 2 times in a game and deliver 1 whereas Rose's aggressive style meant in his peak pre-injury he could get in that same position 5 times in a game and deliver 2. Rose being statistically more wasteful but more threatening also. Trippier was never like for like for Walker either but was useful until the last season whereas the one we expected to step in (Aurier) doesn't stay fit for long enough.

The midfield pairing is crucial for me because we used to win that battle in most games whereas now the games we are playing in are a lot more open. We give up a lot more chances on our goal. Peak Dembele was the one we all mesmerise over but 2016/17 Wanyama was a colossus as well. That was a pairing that saw us win the battle, run teams into the ground, transition from defence to attack and generally run the show. That was the zenith under Poch so far. But before that even when we had Dier screening in 2015/16 or Bentaleb and Mason zipping around right at the start, there was more energy and swiftness in our build up play. Admittingly back then we were not considered anywhere near a top side so teams showed less "respect" to us and tried to take us on more which obviously allowed more open spaces whereas now we play against many sides just parking the bus. But the two midfielders of last season who got a lot of praise - Sissoko and Winks - did play well in their respective roles but as a pairing they are not compatible. Sissoko is a bulldozer who does his job by having in effect a free role to drift out wide in attack and push on forward. Winks on the other hand plays within a smaller compartment of the pitch. It was not balanced at all but we got away with it for a long while and with injuries didn't have much else choice.

The lack of pressing is not something you can pin on Poch. We have had an unprecedented number of injuries and with the lack of transfer activity for reasons non-football related it put him in a position no other manager can really understand. Furthermore when players get older the effects of wear and tear are more prominent so he had to protect his players. He had to hold back on how much he demanded from them. Then there's the fact one or two might get demotivated or less inclined to agree and just lower their level by design. Younger and newer players who have something to prove and establish themselves are more inclined to run around like maniacs.

The lack of movement goes hand in hand with the lack of pressing. When you win the ball high there is a buzz of excitement from everyone in the stadium because you sense a chance. Then you want to do it again. And it becomes habit and your movements become habit. When you're not pressing and players are standing still it's hard to turn on that intensity. City have insane intensity because they sense a chance every time they go forward. And they sense it because they are conditioned into doing it.

When we stopped pressing as a team, stopped winning midfield battles, stopped having full backs running up and down the wing, we stopped having that sense of urgency. You can get that back but you need a series of big wins to produce morale, camaraderie and expectation again.

 

[LeParisien]

We have not had two passers of the ball like Ndombele and Lo Celso in the same midfield under Poch (or ever?). Once they settle, forwards will start running. You’re not gonna make runs all day if it’s Winks and Sissoko supplying the passes.

Get TN, GLC, TA, and CE on the same pitch and we can go long and short all day and the forwards will make defenders shit themselves

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Yes exactly so let's not judge after 180 mins of football has been played. You're willing to use these two matches as evidence to say that Liverpool have built their team better than ours is quite simply knee jerk nonsense.

I'm not going through the last season debate again, Liverpool had a better squad than ours and they bought well, no one's disagreeing with that so I don't understand why that keeps being brought up?

As I keep saying but you keee ignoring, get our key players back on the pitch and our new ones up to speed then we can talk.

I didn’t use two matches I’ve used 5 seasons mate. They’ve got to 5 cup finals, ran city within a point of the title 98 points and beat us in the CL final so not knee jerk at all, it’s just that so far the first 2 matches are not giving too much hope that poch knows our best team and formation etc which certainly won’t help with us achieving better consistency in the league again.

And as I said in my other post I do agree let’s see where we are at in Oct/Nov once summer window is shut for Europe and new players have settled in sure that will make a difference. And let’s see When we play city in the home fixtures if we get completely outplayed to a similar extnent again then that will be worrying.

The issue is though Eriksen is likely to leave so lo celso is just a like for like for him, sure we need son and dele back but poch needs to work out better ways of playing without 1-2 big attacking players, all top teams have injuries etc, city and lpool replace like for like, you just use excuses like oh wait until x z y are back and up to speed etc, no more excuses. I’m not saying we had to win yesterday but the extent we got dominated was embarrassing 30 shots to 2! We are supposedly the 3rd best team in the league not a bloody league one side hanging on for dear life.