The beginning of the end...

[shelfboy68]

Are we only capable in thinking in the negative? Everyone is just torturing themselves here today like SC is lacking a BDSM thread that I thought @Houdini would have set up by now. Let’s see how we feel this time next week, next month, instead of kidding ourselves that this isn’t a knee jerk pit of pessimism we’re intent on drowning ourselves in.

And to think, you’re all usually such a delight after a defeat.

What I'm saying is that the media will be all over this if we suffer a bad one which considering how shit we are playing is likely.
You know full well what happens once the press get their teeth in there will only one direction that it will head for poch sadly.

 

[shelfboy68]

When we lose I am staying off here for a week

You can see it coming though our player's will do their usual shit of telling the media we are title challenger's, only to do their usual of not turning up and getting overrun whilst poch make's changes in the 88th minute.

 

[Timberwolf]

How fucking foolish was it to cash in on Dembele!

Every dressing room to have a good culture needs that one player who is universally respected as a figurehead. That was Dembele for us. The guy who all the players cited as the best player at the club. The guy who Pochettino labelled a genius and one of the best he'd ever worked with (and he's played with Ronaldinho and some other big name stars). The guy when things were in trouble in the pitch you give the ball to because he had the presence and swagger to put out the fire.

We haven't replaced him on the pitch (hopefully Ndombele will prove to be in time) but we're missing his leadership. The fact is most of our senior players now with the exception of Lloris and Son seem to have problems. Alderweireld's situation has dragged for over a year, Eriksen is not committed beyond this season, Vertonghen has some unknown issue with the manager, Rose was effectively transfer listed in pre-season and Kane is half the player he was pre-injuries. At least with Dembele there was never any trouble in his commitment and relationship with players and manager.

No offence but is there any proof whatsoever to back that up? Dembele is a hell of a player but never seemed remotely like a leader to me - certainly not the galvanising, chest-thumping type who would bring a squad together. He was just a quiet, likeable pro who went about his business, and we've had plenty of those over the years. Just because all the players admitted he was the most talented in the squad doesn't mean he was the kernel of harmony and leadership within the dressing room. I think you're just looking for a simple answer to a complicated problem.

Also, by the end he was the walking wounded and we didn't really have any choice but to cash in.

 

[jurgen]

We know the score by now with managers under ENIC - channelling the Dark Knight... "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

 

[mrlilywhite]

If he has issues with certain players there is time to ship them out to bring unity back to the squad

I think we have shown time after time that trying to replace the players like Eriksen, Verts, etc isn't as easy as ABC.

 

[stevenurse]

Yeah I agree with that, hence the first line in my previous post. If things really are that bad, this must have been bubbling under the surface for a while. Bit weird considering how happy and together the squad seemed in the build up to the CL final. Creating squad harmony was always one of Poch's most effortless qualities after he rid the squad of Kaboul/Lennon/Ade when he arrived.

Winning generally eases any tensions in a dressing room. As much as I've hated him for years, Jose is a winner. I bet it wouldn't take him more than a year or two to win something with this squad. The talent is there, its currently being used incorrectly.

I hate the fact that it would seemingly be ending this way. Poch has given some of the best days supporting spurs in my 32 years. The problem we have is that now we have such financial risk associated with performance, we can't just go along on loyalty now. Which, to be fair is how a big club works. He's happy to ship out players who aren't working for him. This is no different for Levy

 

[John48]

Sorry but the quality of the players available means the likes of Allegri or Jose are simply not an option.

Personally, I'd rather we got Poch back onside & stick him for another 5 years, because he can work with the type of players we have, but we just need to add the quality players he wants, so he doesn't feel he's always travelling upstream without a paddle.

 

[g_harry]

However with all that is currently going on with Poch, the players reaction when Nodembele scored aganist Villa suggested a team who are very much together.

 

[Timberwolf]

We know the score by now with managers under ENIC - channelling the Dark Knight... "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain"

 

[Dougal]

What I'm saying is that the media will be all over this if we suffer a bad one which considering how shit we are playing is likely.
You know full well what happens once the press get their teeth in there will only one direction that it will head for poch sadly.

If.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I see some are countering this thread with it being posted after a defeat as if it devalues the thread. "Give it time, it was after a defeat".
But isn't it possible that time has been given? Isn't it possible that circumstances have been given thought for a long time. There were many reasons last season for why domestic performances didn't hit notable highs since Christmas, and people showed patience through that. But afterwards, we DID sign reinforcements. We DID move into our new home. We DID have a restful summer. We DID keep vital players and sell deadwood. But ALL of that has changed and we are still not playing good footie. So maybe this thread isn't a response to one defeat, but to an unbroken and persistent pattern that people already have been patient with.

 

[rossdapep]

Sorry but the quality of the players available means the likes of Allegri or Jose are simply not an option.

Personally, I'd rather we got Poch back onside & stick him for another 5 years, because he can work with the type of players we have, but we just need to add the quality players he wants, so he doesn't feel he's always travelling upstream without a paddle.

I think everybody wants that. However if the dressing room has been lost, it's usually a ticking time bomb. We would likely just ponder along until everyone can see it's not working.

We need this window to shut. Let's see if Poch can settle things down and improve performances after that. If we're into November and still having the same form and performances then you can't disagree with any decision that ends with a new coach. As incredibly disappointing that would be.

 

[pelayo59]

Sorry but the quality of the players available means the likes of Allegri or Jose are simply not an option.

Personally, I'd rather we got Poch back onside & stick him for another 5 years, because he can work with the type of players we have, but we just need to add the quality players he wants, so he doesn't feel he's always travelling upstream without a paddle.

I wouldn't say that Allegri had the better players in Juve in some seasons than he could have here.

 

[Gb160]

View attachment 54642

Jesus... Pfeiffer's let herself go a bit.

 

[Timberwolf]

I see some are countering this thread with it being posted after a defeat as if it devalues the thread. "Give it time, it was after a defeat".
But isn't it possible that time has been given? Isn't it possible that circumstances have been given thought for a long time. There were many reasons last season for why domestic performances didn't hit notably highs since Christmas, and people showed patience through that. But afterwards, we DID sign reinforcements. We DID move into our new home. We DID have a restful summer. We DID keep vital players and sell deadwood. But ALL of that has changed and we are still not playing good footie. So maybe this thread isn't a response to one defeat, but to an unbroken and persistent pattern that people already have been patient with.

Since all those things have been in place we've only actually lost one game. Is that being patient?

 

[mrlilywhite]

Sorry but the quality of the players available means the likes of Allegri or Jose are simply not an option.

Personally, I'd rather we got Poch back onside & stick him for another 5 years, because he can work with the type of players we have, but we just need to add the quality players he wants, so he doesn't feel he's always travelling upstream without a paddle.

1. Don't think he will last beyond this season, let alone another 5.

2. Didn't we do that already? Was N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sess his preferred choices?

I haven't seen the likes of Winks progress, nor have I seen players like Sanchez progress. You then have other bigger players like CE, JV & TA that have all fallen under the Poch wraith in recent times. My guess is that Poch doesn't need to be bought back onside. From what I can gather the players that have been frozen out by Poch need to be bought back onside. The question is, is that fixable under Poch? I don't think it is right now.

 

[yankspurs]

He could have done this last season, you can't overhaul a squad in one window! It happens over time. Even buying young potential could have been achieved last season; rather than buying instant first team challengers.

You cant overhaul a squad when you sign no one.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Since all those things have been in place we've only actually lost one game. Is that being patient?

What I've seen is that people are talking about the quality of the footie, and a perceived lack of or decline in motivation, which I think is fair to scrutinise. What I'm saying is, dismissing this thread because of timing, I wonder if that is as shallow as those dismissers are trying to say this thread is.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

It's never ending with Spurs, isn't it? When you finally think that all focus can turn to the football, the building of a squad and the possible glory and riches it brings and we end up with more drama that 'could' throw everything that's been built in the last few years into utter chaos and uncertainty.

 

[arunspurs]

Lets see some sequence of events & facts....

1) From start of 2018/19 season to middle of Feb 2019, our PL record : Played :26, Draw -0, Loss -6(Watford,pool,City,Arse, United, Wolves)...We won against low,mid table teams and lost against team which are tougher opponents.
2) We pummel Dortmund at home in Feb, without Kane who was recovering.
3) Then there is a 10 day winter break.
4) After winter break, Kane starts even though we have been doing brilliantly.
5) Kane coming back & starting could just be coincidence but all of a sudden for whatever reasons, we start performing terribly.
6) In the next 13 PL games, Played 13, Lost - 7, Draw - 2, won - 3. The 3 wins against Palace (home), Hudderfield (home), Brighton (home). All 3 wins against weaker opposition with the new stadium bounce. 2 of the 3 wins without Kane.
7) Before the Bournemouth home loss, Poch says 'When you talk about Tottenham, everyone says you have an amazing house but you need to put in the furniture. If you want to have a lovely house maybe you need better furniture' and says there has to be painful rebuild.
8) In mean time we are scrapping through CL round after round.
9)Moura semis happen & gets dropped for Kane again in CL finals

10) Then the summer break
11) Trippier sold
12) Danny Rose dropped for the tour
13) Rose back in radar.
14) Jan doesnt play much part even in tour. Previous tours, Jan build of game time is usually starts fro m45min to 60min to final preseason game 90min. For first time, he is not completing his minutes.
15) Levy tries to keep Poch happy with 4 players that were rumoured to get start of window. IMO, Levy is trying to take Poch's stand.
16) Eriksen stuff drags on & on.
17) Jan doesnt start the first game.
18) Nearly lose the Villa game, somehow lucky against City and lost against Newcastle....
19) In all of these draws & losses, we almost always concede first. No defensive organisation
20) Poch continues to moan & moan in press conference....


My Take :

i) If you put these 20 together, its blatantly obvious things arent right. From beating lower table teams start of last season, we are not even creating chances
ii) I firmly belive Levy has tried to please his manager with the signings he wanted. But for some reason, he cannot get all the players Poch wanted out.
iii) Jan Vertonghen is my Spurs role model. He has transcended managers & he is the senior pro in the club. If he is being sidelined for non-fitness reasons, then its big big trouble for Poch.
iv) This is my guess : I think Poch wants players to be committed at same time we are looking to sell them. I guess its not going well down with them. I have a feeling Players aren't amused to see him playing his favorites inspite of hardwork at training. Its a valid stand if this is the case. If players & Poch doesnt come to a amical solution, I can only see this sliding down even further.
v) A lot will be know next week in NLD. If we lose it with no fight, Poch is done. Time to cut the losses and look for another option.