The beginning of the end...

[Everlasting Seconds]

However, to my disappointment the team and mostly Poch, seem to have carried on the same negative mentality and looking absolutely exhausted and turgid
During all of this Poch has gone darker and moodier by the week.

This is a very worrying trend we're in

The heart of the problem IMO. As far as I understand, Levy doesn't do negative trends. He halts them whatever it takes.

 

[hakano]

Can't believe how many people are willing to tank Poch. The mind absolutely boggles. Got us into the CL 4 years running with a net spend of £10M and a wage bill less than Everton's. He's the most over-performing manager in world football. We're on a poor run, yes, but everyone knows there are clear reasons for that. And some of those are Poch's fault, but others are out of his control. But let's not return to the Tottenham basket case who sacked their manager every time performance levels drop a little, because we're so entitled that we feel we deserve to be seeing better football. Our standards are high because Pochettino put them there.

And talk of Mourinho is just absolute stupidity. The club has spent a long time trying to create an identity - that we are a club that leans heavily on its academy and develops young players. An identity that sees us play high energy, creative attacking football (yes it has lapsed recently but our identity is there). Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of everything that Tottenham is. Defensive football, a chequebook manager who relies completely on signing established, ready made players in their late 20s or early 30s for premium transfer fees, who are half decent for 2 / 3 years before their value plummets to zero. Every interview and press conference is Mourinho throwing his players under the bus because they didn't do what he told them to. He creates a war behind the scenes within 5 minutes everywhere he goes because that is how he operates - he is a conflict based manager. I literally couldn't think of a worse fit in world football than Tottenham Hotspur and Jose Mourinho.

Well said. Unbelievable knee jerk stuff on here. We have people who forget where we were before Poch. He should be questioned for the dire performances in 2019 for sure but those same people are putting the entire blame on the man who has propelled this team to heights no one expected and are now one of the most respected globally - all on a shoestring.

 

[stevenurse]

All of this 'don't hate on Poch' stuff is fair enough, and I can't stress enough that if I had the choice to have success with any manager it would be him. For what he's built with us, he deserves some success (even if he's had chances and failed before, but that's by the by).

I absolutely love the bloke, until about Xmas last season he was amazing. Since then it's been a slow decline in terms of performance/attitude/team cohesion etc. There comes a point where you have to stop the rot though. If we want to be a big club, we have to act like a big club.

We have the training ground, the stadium, a top squad and are just about starting to spend money like the big boys. What else can Poch want? If we want to be an elite club, we have to act like an elite club. 4 wins in 15 isn't good enough, irrespective of an amazing, yet admittedly flukey CL run.

I don't want to face the wrath of the admins by asking questions, but unless it comes out what information was passed on, we don't know how much to blame Poch is.

What I do suspect is that he won't be 100% innocent in whatever problems have arisen

 

[Cambridge Spur]

I have to admit it feels like the beginning of the end to me. I certainly hope not but things haven’t seemed right for a while now. If I didn’t know any better I would swear that Pochettinos behaviour and decisions are deliberate on his part to try and destabilise the squad and distant himself from the fans. I know it sounds ridiculous but I’m struggling to understand his recent actions. I used to love him and his passion for the club but over the last year it’s as if he has gone out of his way to create issues and upset people. How else do you explain it? He’s a good manager but he needs to be more humble and show greater respect to our club.

 

[John48]

As I said before I don't know whether it's the beginning of the end, but I've been around a long time & seen too many managers come & go & the runes don't look good.

Poch comments before the TW, his comments during the TW, his comments now it's closed all suggest he's not entirely happy as say he was 2 years ago. Add to that the teams performances to date & you have to wonder whether there are real problems behind the scenes. If so, there's a good chance this could be the beginning of the end, because in my experience these things never end well & very often it's the manager that pays the price.

I hope I'm wrong & things get ironed out because I'd like to see Poch do another 5 years or more, but that won't happen if he's not happy in his work.

 

[OPModric]

Can't believe how many people are willing to tank Poch. The mind absolutely boggles. Got us into the CL 4 years running with a net spend of £10M and a wage bill less than Everton's. He's the most over-performing manager in world football. We're on a poor run, yes, but everyone knows there are clear reasons for that. And some of those are Poch's fault, but others are out of his control. But let's not return to the Tottenham basket case who sacked their manager every time performance levels drop a little, because we're so entitled that we feel we deserve to be seeing better football. Our standards are high because Pochettino put them there.

And talk of Mourinho is just absolute stupidity. The club has spent a long time trying to create an identity - that we are a club that leans heavily on its academy and develops young players. An identity that sees us play high energy, creative attacking football (yes it has lapsed recently but our identity is there). Jose Mourinho is the antithesis of everything that Tottenham is. Defensive football, a chequebook manager who relies completely on signing established, ready made players in their late 20s or early 30s for premium transfer fees, who are half decent for 2 / 3 years before their value plummets to zero. Every interview and press conference is Mourinho throwing his players under the bus because they didn't do what he told them to. He creates a war behind the scenes within 5 minutes everywhere he goes because that is how he operates - he is a conflict based manager. I literally couldn't think of a worse fit in world football than Tottenham Hotspur and Jose Mourinho.

Agree it's hard to criticize Poch and he should have plenty of time to turn it around. Net spend and wage bill are fair arguments but you can also say that's a credit to Levy. What a squad we have assembled with less outlay than our opponents.

If we just look at our squad I don't think Poch is overperforming (in the league). I think we have better squads than United, Chelsea and Arsenal. Last season with the exception of central midfield.

 

[mattyspurs]

I think he’ll be back to normal when the window closes. He just wants to know what he’s going to be working with.

That doesn’t account for Sunday’s performance it was shit. No excuses for that. I was watching the match with Reid’s Belly, and we were both saying how much it reminded us of an AVB style.

I just hope VY’s info is wrong on this one

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

Agree it's hard to criticize Poch and he should have plenty of time to turn it around. Net spend and wage bill are fair arguments but you can also say that's a credit to Levy. What a squad we have assembled with less outlay than our opponents.

If we just look at our squad I don't think Poch is overperforming (in the league). I think we have better squads than United, Chelsea and Arsenal. Last season with the exception of central midfield.

When you analyse our squad how much of that is down to Poch's coaching ? Would Kane be the player he is without Poch ? Would Son ? Its all very well to credit Levy but a lot of the time it is Poch who has made a silk purse out of a sow's ear. No people want to throw that back in his face when his public comments are all about freshening up the squad, his squad. I'm stunned that people feel they know better than he does whether Verts is fit enough for the team.

 

[Matthew]

Start of that season

1st game - drew away 1-1 everton - drew level at 59' with a lamela goal.

2nd game - won at Home 1-0 palace, Wanyama scored 83rd-minute

whats your point? the point we are making is we are levels away from that over the past year, why do people just assume everyone is basing it on the opening 3 games for fuck sake.

 

[dagraham]

I have to admit it feels like the beginning of the end to me. I certainly hope not but things haven’t seemed right for a while now. If I didn’t know any better I would swear that Pochettinos behaviour and decisions are deliberate on his part to try and destabilise the squad and distant himself from the fans. I know it sounds ridiculous but I’m struggling to understand his recent actions. I used to love him and his passion for the club but over the last year it’s as if he has gone out of his way to create issues and upset people. How else do you explain it? He’s a good manager but he needs to be more humble and show greater respect to our club.

So, you’re saying he’s basically trying to get himself fired?

 

[dace]

Well this is it isn't it, it depends on the conversation, if Poch has laid it out there we need a rebuild and we have to go backward to go forward and they're both aware of a difficult season ahead but we will reap the rewards in the 2/3 seasons after then I think Levy will appreciate that. Problem is I don't know if that chat has happened.

You may be completely correct here, we really do not know.
However this does not explain the interviews he gives or the rubbish slow football we are playing.

 

[DJS]

It's just odd for me as I've loved having Poch as our manager and we have had some truly great results under him and excellent league finishes - I still remember with disbelieve the season when we finished second and were absolutely tonking teams like it was a football video game and Kane was scoring 3 or 4 goals per match.

But last two seasons we have been struggling performance wise very often and they have been due to some very odd and dare I say stubborn decisions by Poch (and also perhaps poor decision making at the club above and around him).

Poch hit onto a genius 3-4-2-1 formation where he dropped Dier back into the back three and had Wanyama and Dembele rampaging in midfield with Eriksen and Dele supporting Kane. Even one of the games where Son was in for Eriksen we absolutely spanked a team (it was either the Hull of Leicester game) so we didn't miss Eriksen for that game because the team was just clicking and players played to their strengths and in a system that suited them.

Then following season he continues with 3-4-2-1 but due to Wanyama being unavailable starts playing Dier there and continued doing so even though very clear for both England and us that Dier is not suitable in front of a back three in midfield (or at least requires a lot of work on him to get him to work there as wouldn't want to completely write him off).

Prior to this 3-4-2-1 phase Poch had he had successfully converted Dier into a defensive midfielder who worker really well in a 4-2-3-1 where he could drop between centre backs when needed and this gave us great shape and flexibility.

Poch has been unfortunate in that such an important player in Dembele had his injuring problems that became more and more prominent and that is poor club management that we have only just replaced him this summer in hopefully Ndombele, where it was clear Dembele was struggling and a replacement should have been in before we even let him go (this can either be down to Levy being slow off the mark or reports that Poch was being stubborn again and refusing players).

We've also been very unfortunate that Wanyama was basically knackered after only on brilliant season with us, but again club should have been on top of this and we have left our midfield engine room badly neglected for a couple of seasons now.

And lately Poch's latest stubborn thing is his crazy insistence in playing the poxy diamond midfield.

I really hope we see us playing a proper 4-2-3-1 again now (or maybe even 3-4-2-1) with Kane up top and us doing the best to get the best out of him again.

And in midfield engine room needs to be looked at the players and seeing which ones can perform the role there. I personally think Winks and Ndombele could do well there with Winks maybe being asked to clean up (as some of his best games have been in Champions league sitting) but cannot make a judgement on Winks in current team climate as our tactics seem a mess. If he cannot do it then Ndombele needs to be partnered with either a specialist defensive midfielder in Dier or ask Sissoko to sit and use his energy in that role (as he is much better driving us than being asked to be a creative source if you know what I mean).

As I've said I've absolutely loved Poch as our manager but he has made some stupid decisions with the team and I haven't liked the current evil chirpy version of Poch we've recently been having and Poch either needs to sort himself out and get the tactics right, or if he doesn't want to be here anymore he needs to go as we've got too many good players now to be wasting time putting in shit performances against struggling teams like Newcastle.

I'm hoping this is all a storm in a team cup and once we get our new boys fit they will freshen things up as I think we've gone a bit stale.

Maybe we could try:

Lloris

Alderweireld Sanchez VERTONGHEN

KWP Winks Ndombele Sessegnon

Dele Lo Celso

Kane


Or:


Lloris

KWP Alderweireld VERTONGHEN Rose

Winks (Dier) Ndombele

An attacking trio picked from Son, Dele, Lo Celso, Eriksen and Sessegnon (Moura impact sub)

Kane


But just pick a frickin' team that suits the players and allows them to express themselves... Not a diamond though.

 

[Norwayspurs]

Christ. Much of this noise is really on Poch. If he could just stfu about the cryptics in the press.

 

[spursfan77]

Well said. Unbelievable knee jerk stuff on here. We have people who forget where we were before Poch. He should be questioned for the dire performances in 2019 for sure but those same people are putting the entire blame on the man who has propelled this team to heights no one expected and are now one of the most respected globally - all on a shoestring.

But if he wants to be credited with it all going right then he probably has to be credited when it goes wrong.

I’m not saying it’s solely down to him, by the way, either way.

 

[dace]

You don’t think any of that is to do with the almost impossible task he was set by our owners, no squad improvements for 18 months and pretty pathetic purchases for 2 years before that and being told Wembley was for 1 year and then it being 2 ?

If he was silent many, not least me, would have said he was lacking ambition by failing to push our owners.

If there is an issue at the club you can look to one of 2 sources - Poch or Levy. You can choose to back one of 2 people - Poch or Levy. Of course who you back is irrelevant because Levy wins. For what it’s worth if Poch walks I blame Levy and I don’t see him hiring anyone worthy of shining Poch’s shoes. Thankfully, notwithstanding the hysteria in this thread I don’t think Levy is anyway close to stupid enough to get rid of Poch.

We have had proper itk that mentions Poch refused players. maybe it was best not to get a plan B in but lets be realistic we have a few Plan B players atm. Plus it would not of hurt to have used the players we had, GKN for one, he may not have been at the level we want but he would have been fresh and who knows what he could have beeb like after 4-6 games.
Plus a Plan B new face or two may have turn out to be spectacular.

 

[Matthew]

There’s being worried about our form and then there’s starting a thread titled ‘The beginning of the end’. Nobody is suggesting everything is rosy either. But it seems to some the only option is a change of management. Frankly I think that’s ludicrous but other people are entitled to their opinion. In the end it’s nothing more than opinions during a poor run and they are bound to be leaning towards pessimism.

that has been going on for 6 months, that's not a bad run, that's a downward spiral. if any other manager had 3 wins from 15 in the league his job would be under threat, let alone one supposedly challenging for titles.

i will add, i dont want him sacked.

 

[Cambridge Spur]

So, you’re saying he’s basically trying to get himself fired?

Not really, I’m just struggling to understand his behaviour over the last year. It all seemed to start when he was linked to the Man Utd job

 

[spursfan77]

It's just odd for me as I've loved having Poch as our manager and we have had some truly great results under him and excellent league finishes - I still remember with disbelieve the season when we finished second and were absolutely tonking teams like it was a football video game and Kane was scoring 3 or 4 goals per match.

But last two seasons we have been struggling performance wise very often and they have been due to some very odd and dare I say stubborn decisions by Poch (and also perhaps poor decision making at the club above and around him).

Poch hit onto a genius 3-4-2-1 formation where he dropped Dier back into the back three and had Wanyama and Dembele rampaging in midfield with Eriksen and Dele supporting Kane. Even one of the games where Son was in for Eriksen we absolutely spanked a team (it was either the Hull of Leicester game) so we didn't miss Eriksen for that game because the team was just clicking and players played to their strengths and in a system that suited them.

Then following season he continues with 3-4-2-1 but due to Wanyama being unavailable starts playing Dier there and continued doing so even though very clear for both England and us that Dier is not suitable in front of a back three in midfield (or at least requires a lot of work on him to get him to work there as wouldn't want to completely write him off).

Prior to this 3-4-2-1 phase Poch had he had successfully converted Dier into a defensive midfielder who worker really well in a 4-2-3-1 where he could drop between centre backs when needed and this gave us great shape and flexibility.

Poch has been unfortunate in that such an important player in Dembele had his injuring problems that became more and more prominent and that is poor club management that we have only just replaced him this summer in hopefully Ndombele, where it was clear Dembele was struggling and a replacement should have been in before we even let him go (this can either be down to Levy being slow off the mark or reports that Poch was being stubborn again and refusing players).

We've also been very unfortunate that Wanyama was basically knackered after only on brilliant season with us, but again club should have been on top of this and we have left our midfield engine room badly neglected for a couple of seasons now.

And lately Poch's latest stubborn thing is his crazy insistence in playing the poxy diamond midfield.

I really hope we see us playing a proper 4-2-3-1 again now (or maybe even 3-4-2-1) with Kane up top and us doing the best to get the best out of him again.

And in midfield engine room needs to be looked at the players and seeing which ones can perform the role there. I personally think Winks and Ndombele could do well there with Winks maybe being asked to clean up (as some of his best games have been in Champions league sitting) but cannot make a judgement on Winks in current team climate as our tactics seem a mess. If he cannot do it then Ndombele needs to be partnered with either a specialist defensive midfielder in Dier or ask Sissoko to sit and use his energy in that role (as he is much better driving us than being asked to be a creative source if you know what I mean).

As I've said I've absolutely loved Poch as our manager but he has made some stupid decisions with the team and I haven't liked the current evil chirpy version of Poch we've recently been having and Poch either needs to sort himself out and get the tactics right, or if he doesn't want to be here anymore he needs to go as we've got too many good players now to be wasting time putting in shit performances against struggling teams like Newcastle.

I'm hoping this is all a storm in a team cup and once we get our new boys fit they will freshen things up as I think we've gone a bit stale.

Maybe we could try:

Lloris

Alderweireld Sanchez VERTONGHEN

KWP Winks Ndombele Sessegnon

Dele Lo Celso

Kane


Or:


Lloris

KWP Alderweireld VERTONGHEN Rose

Winks (Dier) Ndombele

An attacking trio picked from Son, Dele, Lo Celso, Eriksen and Sessegnon (Moura impact sub)

Kane


But just pick a frickin' team that suits the players and allows them to express themselves... Not a diamond though.

I agree. I just don’t understand why he’s moved so far from that winning formula formation and tactics. Losing players or not. Just replace them as well as you can. Ndombele is here now for Dembele, play Aurier for walker and it’s virtually the same players in the other positions. Football is an easy game, sometimes people try and be too clever and forget the basics that brought them success in the first place.

 

[Mr Pink]

I love Poch but the timing of those comments before the CL final were really quite horrendous.

If it was a deflection tactic to take the pressure off the players he should of come up with something else.

Personally I think that was the moment he thought he'd had outgrown us, but should keep those feelings private IMHO.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I love Poch but the timing of those comments before the CL final were really quite horrendous.

If it was a deflection tactic to take the pressure off the players he should of come up with something else.

Personally I think that was the moment he thought he'd had outgrown us, but should keep those feelings private IMHO.

I think the CL presser on a segregated basis was fine, mainly because I agree with him. If I were to lead Tottenham to win a CL final, I would probably want to retire, too.
However, the presser that bug me are basically every single presser since the CL final. He is not a manager, he is not a scientist, he can't do anything about the current situation but to wait and train the players the best, the TW is wrong, the players are unsettled blah blah blah he comes across as a grumpy, negative guy of some arrogance without having the results to back up the arrogance. He is not representing the club very well these days, and I'm pretty certain Levy hates bad media ambassadors.