The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 4th January 2013

[bomberH]

All that twitters is not gold (can't believe I just made that up ).

Pretty sure Tim Vine said it first.

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

Yeah, my friend who's a Spurs fan and watches 50-60 live football matches a season, including 5-10 Schalke games, agrees with this. His view is that Holtby is vastly overrated and no better than Sigurdsoon, that Draxler is the real talent and that we've signed someone purely for his resale value. I haven't seen the kid play, so I'm not accepting his opinion as read, but equally I'm not preapred to be swept along with the "we've signed someone, he must be the new Eusebio" crowd either.

Yeah I'm with you. I don't quite know why as I've only seen him a handful of times alongside compilations; I just can't get that excited. Don't get me wrong he looks a good player with huge potential but quite similar in some respects to Sigurdsson.
I do feel Levy saw the free transfer and regardless if we had 20 midfielders on our books, he still would of taken it (for the resale value at the very least like you said).

Question is where does this leave Gylfi? If we persist in 4-2-3-1 it's going to be Dempsey, Gylfi and Holtby all fighting it out for one space - None want to benchwarm.

I don't know much for Draxler so I can't comment but going on what I've heard plus read it seems they aren't going to be left in the lurch minus Holtby.

I guess best case scenario he becomes the gem he has the potential to... Worst case we sell him off for a tidy profit guess we can't really go wrong.

 

[Mouse!]

Yeah, my friend who's a Spurs fan and watches 50-60 live football matches a season, including 5-10 Schalke games, agrees with this. His view is that Holtby is vastly overrated and no better than Sigurdsoon, that Draxler is the real talent and that we've signed someone purely for his resale value. I haven't seen the kid play, so I'm not accepting his opinion as read, but equally I'm not preapred to be swept along with the "we've signed someone, he must be the new Eusebio" crowd either.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

we've signed someone purely for his resale value.

I know he as on about Fryers but Sir Beetrootface isn't stupid when he says something has 'Levy's fingerprints all over it' he could equally have been talking about the Holtby deal as well.

 

[Snarfalicious]

Snarf I've been seeing you've been posting all week about Holtby and seem largely the most clued up here. I did a bit of whoring on Schalke's main fan forum which is in German so slightly hard to decipher. Anyway, the majority seem to feel Holtby has regressed a lot this season and I don't know whether its just bravado cos he's chose to leave but many feel Draxler can quite adequately if not better fill in the gap Holtby leaves?

That's difficult to say. And Julian Draxler is a fantastic player there's no doubt about that. It's a huge reason why they won't feel so worried about him leaving. However, it's really difficult to say Holtby has regressed simply because he's had such big shoes to fill with Raul leaving for the Q-League. A lot's been expected of him, and I think the expectations were so high simply because of the position and shoes he was expected to at least come close to filling.

That being said, he has had a pretty solid season to date. I think they'd like to see more goals, and I think he's definitely capable.

I've now watched the first 3 matches of the season in succession (as well as the Montpellier away match and Arsenal home match in the CL) for Holtby and he's got so many different styles of play. One moment he's dropping deep and taking the ball to move forward/gain more space on the pitch, the next he's playing way up the pitch almost as a partner to Huntelaar then the next he's out wide. He can go from taking the ball forward to simply playing one-touch balls and trying to hit teams on the counter quickly. He's a tough little shit that isn't scared to mix it up and will make challenges all over the pitch. He's got the whole "German" thing down in that he's really a direct player who when he goes down it's usually for good reason and he won't stay down for long.

I think the most valuable thing for him would be finding a position that suits him best. Personally, I see him either with a guy like Dembele sitting in front of Sandro in the more advanced role in the 4-3-3 or in the hole in the 4-2-3-1.

The only other issue I see with him is the tendency to fade out of a match for periods of time. He's always attempting to make himself available, but he's not necessarily screaming for the ball (which I'd prefer to see more). When he gets the ball he's usually got the vision to know where to go with it immediately and as a result he will put defenses on their heels. It's funny though, because when he has those lapses in his impact on the match, he suddenly will burst into the game and it almost catches you off-guard how great he can be because it almost comes out of nowhere.

He's the type of player that I think once he matures more, becomes a little more sure of the position he's playing, that he will really blossom. As it stands, he's a very very very (very) talented young guy who is showing the rare ability to see the whole pitch and what's unraveling around him and he can pick out dangerous, quick passes. He's capable of that 'wow' moment and when he exerts himself on a match and is being fed constant touches the whole attack of the side appears to become quicker, sharper and a little more lethal.

I posted a .gif of his first assist in the Arsenal match to Huntelaar in the Holtby Scouting Thread ( http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-lewis-holtby-scouting-thread.93552/ ) on here in the Spurs Chat section. Those are the types of moments I'm talking about. That's an incredibly technical pass that he makes and it's absolutely inch-perfect.

 

[EJWTartanSpur]

Snarf I've been seeing you've been posting all week about Holtby and seem largely the most clued up here. I did a bit of whoring on Schalke's main fan forum which is in German so slightly hard to decipher. Anyway, the majority seem to feel Holtby has regressed a lot this season and I don't know whether its just bravado cos he's chose to leave but many feel Draxler can quite adequately if not better fill in the gap Holtby leaves?

Draxler is the finite talent at the club, no doubt, but I don't think this should detract from the abilities of Holtby, more merely a case of Schalke have a good batch of players coming through. Draxler reminds me of Thomas Muller, he's rangy, tall, not got unbelievable acceleration, but has great pace, is two footed, and scores goals, playing off of either wing or at number ten.

Mata, Soldado, and many countless more, where moved on in the earlier parts of their careers, because they were other highly rated players at the club, but I'd take any of them, and would've at the time

 

[Spurger King]

Question is where does this leave Gylfi?

Good question. I've only watched youtube clips of Holtby but he does seem to be a similar player to Sig, though perhaps more defensive and capable of playing in the middle.

Nevertheless I'm looking forward to seeing how he does. A lot of people on other forums seem to rate him very highly, and one thing I've read in several places is his ability to assist the assist - something Modric was great at doing.

He looks very promising and he's on a free. I think this is one of those deals where there is nothing to lose and everything to gain.

 

[TheGreenLily]

That's difficult to say. And Julian Draxler is a fantastic player there's no doubt about that. It's a huge reason why they won't feel so worried about him leaving. However, it's really difficult to say Holtby has regressed simply because he's had such big shoes to fill with Raul leaving for the Q-League. A lot's been expected of him, and I think the expectations were so high simply because of the position and shoes he was expected to at least come close to filling.

That being said, he has had a pretty solid season to date. I think they'd like to see more goals, and I think he's definitely capable.

I've now watched the first 3 matches of the season in succession (as well as the Montpellier away match and Arsenal home match in the CL) for Holtby and he's got so many different styles of play. One moment he's dropping deep and taking the ball to move forward/gain more space on the pitch, the next he's playing way up the pitch almost as a partner to Huntelaar then the next he's out wide. He can go from taking the ball forward to simply playing one-touch balls and trying to hit teams on the counter quickly. He's a tough little shit that isn't scared to mix it up and will make challenges all over the pitch. He's got the whole "German" thing down in that he's really a direct player who when he goes down it's usually for good reason and he won't stay down for long.

I think the most valuable thing for him would be finding a position that suits him best. Personally, I see him either with a guy like Dembele sitting in front of Sandro in the more advanced role in the 4-3-3 or in the hole in the 4-2-3-1.

The only other issue I see with him is the tendency to fade out of a match for periods of time. He's always attempting to make himself available, but he's not necessarily screaming for the ball (which I'd prefer to see more). When he gets the ball he's usually got the vision to know where to go with it immediately and as a result he will put defenses on their heels. It's funny though, because when he has those lapses in his impact on the match, he suddenly will burst into the game and it almost catches you off-guard how great he can be because it almost comes out of nowhere.

He's the type of player that I think once he matures more, becomes a little more sure of the position he's playing, that he will really blossom. As it stands, he's a very very very (very) talented young guy who is showing the rare ability to see the whole pitch and what's unraveling around him and he can pick out dangerous, quick passes. He's capable of that 'wow' moment and when he exerts himself on a match and is being fed constant touches the whole attack of the side appears to become quicker, sharper and a little more lethal.

So could well be a £30 million plus sell on in the future?

If A&C is theory is correct about the comment from old whisky face, maybe Manure were looking at him too, as they have whole load of older players that need replacing and he sounds like he fits their bill.

 

[Mouse!]

If anyone can give Holtby a firm idea of what he should be doing on the pitch with regards to his position and style of play, it's AVB.

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

That's difficult to say. And Julian Draxler is a fantastic player there's no doubt about that. It's a huge reason why they won't feel so worried about him leaving. However, it's really difficult to say Holtby has regressed simply because he's had such big shoes to fill with Raul leaving for the Q-League. A lot's been expected of him, and I think the expectations were so high simply because of the position and shoes he was expected to at least come close to filling.

That being said, he has had a pretty solid season to date. I think they'd like to see more goals, and I think he's definitely capable.

I've now watched the first 3 matches of the season in succession (as well as the Montpellier away match and Arsenal home match in the CL) for Holtby and he's got so many different styles of play. One moment he's dropping deep and taking the ball to move forward/gain more space on the pitch, the next he's playing way up the pitch almost as a partner to Huntelaar then the next he's out wide. He can go from taking the ball forward to simply playing one-touch balls and trying to hit teams on the counter quickly. He's a tough little shit that isn't scared to mix it up and will make challenges all over the pitch. He's got the whole "German" thing down in that he's really a direct player who when he goes down it's usually for good reason and he won't stay down for long.

I think the most valuable thing for him would be finding a position that suits him best. Personally, I see him either with a guy like Dembele sitting in front of Sandro in the more advanced role in the 4-3-3 or in the hole in the 4-2-3-1.

The only other issue I see with him is the tendency to fade out of a match for periods of time. He's always attempting to make himself available, but he's not necessarily screaming for the ball (which I'd prefer to see more). When he gets the ball he's usually got the vision to know where to go with it immediately and as a result he will put defenses on their heels. It's funny though, because when he has those lapses in his impact on the match, he suddenly will burst into the game and it almost catches you off-guard how great he can be because it almost comes out of nowhere.

He's the type of player that I think once he matures more, becomes a little more sure of the position he's playing, that he will really blossom. As it stands, he's a very very very (very) talented young guy who is showing the rare ability to see the whole pitch and what's unraveling around him and he can pick out dangerous, quick passes. He's capable of that 'wow' moment and when he exerts himself on a match and is being fed constant touches the whole attack of the side appears to become quicker, sharper and a little more lethal.

Cheers for that really informative mate! I love that we are all creaming over getting him but only you and a handful probably have watched enough games to actually know what type of player we are getting.

My only other concern is (although I don't know for sure) why none of the big boys were knocking around for him. All I know was that is was reported Liverpool, Arsenal, Us and supposedly Everton were actively in for him. That was another point raised on I think a PL team forum. Maybe I'm just being pedantic!

Sidenote: I watched a full compilations and he seems to have a great ability to head the ball with power, something that wouldn't go a miss in our attacking players given the crosses we get in.

 

[Snarfalicious]

Cheers for that really informative mate! I love that we are all creaming over getting him but only you and a handful probably have watched enough games to actually know what type of player we are getting.

My only other concern is (although I don't know for sure) why none of the big boys were knocking around for him. All I know was that is was reported Liverpool, Arsenal, Us and supposedly Everton were actively in for him. That was another point raised on I think a PL team forum. Maybe I'm just being pedantic!

I watched a full compilations and he seems to have a great ability to head the ball with power, something that wouldn't go a miss in our attacking players given the crosses we get in.

It's the consistency factor. He needs to find the position that suits him best (as I stated above) and simply grow into it. There's no doubt he's got that potential to grow into a top-tier talent, he's just going to need to be coached up a bit.

The mental stuff is all there. Tough, Captain's attitude, works his ass off every match, and I think if he's on a side that attempts to put a bigger emphasis on playing through him instead of around him (Schalke plays a TON through their wingers in Afellay and Farfan) than he will begin to show more and more why he is so highly regarded when he's playing at his capacity.

 

[Snarfalicious]

If anyone can give Holtby a firm idea of what he should be doing on the pitch with regards to his position and style of play, it's AVB.

See: Aaron Lennon.

I think it's a very valid point. AVB is a teacher of the game, and I bet that was one of those reasons why Holtby stated he was convinced by AVB. I'm sure AVB made it very clear to him that he can get the most out of him. I'm so excited to see what he can do for his overall game. It should be a sight.

 

[spivmaster]

We cannot go wrong here. He's basically playing for free anyways since we can easily sell him at a decent profit which would cover whatever wages he had made up to that point (if he's not quite good enough).

 

[the yid]

@jetsetyid
@Nick90Rollinson @neileatson @spurssauce Ade is quality and needs to be retained IMHO but AVB prefers Llorente & others.#bothstubborn

Thats replying to me! I see it on here before twitter!

 

[Snarfalicious]

We cannot go wrong here. He's basically playing for free anyways since we can easily sell him at a decent profit which would cover whatever wages he had made up to that point (if he's not quite good enough).

I agree completely. The reward here FAR outweighs the risk. Even if it takes Holtby a full season to really find his feet. He'd be going into his age 24 season with a good understanding of what is expected and realistically could be hitting his stride as a 24-25 year old and if he's doing that, his value will absolutely sky-rocket.

 

[Snarfalicious]

Since my full-game cut up of Holtby was removed by YouTube, any awesome moments I see from Holtby in matches I'll just make gifs and post them to the Holtby scouting thread.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

We cannot go wrong here. He's basically playing for free anyways since we can easily sell him at a decent profit which would cover whatever wages he had made up to that point (if he's not quite good enough).

Daniel, is that you?

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

I hope he's not benched for rest of season due to his decision or pressure from the Schalke fans - That would really stunt his progress. I'm definitely going to be cheering on Schalke in the CL now - Get him as much big match experience as possible (and rub his talent in the faces of those who didn't get him )

 

[GetSpurredOn]

I have to admit the Damaio stuff is interesting. Usually everyone comments how it's hard to buy in the January window because the value for money isn't there. However, due to the season overlap, January probably is the best time to buy from Brazil, as every summer window Internacional boost their price dye to losing him midway through their own campaign.
Not sure I buy into the Ade leaving thing, but in terms of Damaio timing, makes a little bit if sense, especially with Gomes being back in Brazil currently, and being touted as part of the deal.
Beyond him, the links to Facundo Ferreyra earlier tonight sounds like an interesting one. Young, reasonable record, don't imagine he'd be overly expensive. Could be the ideal third striker.
Going back to Damaio, I don't see us shelling out for both him and Moutinho in the same window, at least not without us recouping a decent amount first in sales.
Possibly Moutinho and cheap striker.
Or cheaper/loan midfielder and Damaio.

 

[Snarfalicious]

I hope he's not benched for rest of season due to his decision or pressure from the Schalke fans - That would really stunt his progress. I'm definitely going to be cheering on Schalke in the CL now - Get him as much big match experience as possible (and rub his talent in the faces of those who didn't get him )

Schalke are a very attractive team to watch when they play quickly on the counter. They have such quality attacking options and their defense is actually a pretty solid group as well. I really like Benedikt Howedes and it's nice to see him having a pretty healthy season.