The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 8th July 2017

[Hercules]

Exactly this. I posted yesterday about a story where a Rossi deal was all agreed then the next day Levy tried to change terms and the whole thing blew up

On the other hand he sells Tainio, Chimbonda and Malbranque to Sunderland for 22m, or buys Mido who proceeds to not play at all and do nothing but get fat, then sells him at profit to Middlesbrough.

Classic

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Sue for breach of contract, damages, the works.

A contract exists as soon as the parties agree it does. The written contract is simply post-fact evidence.

If one party then refuses to honour that agreement without legally solid reason before the document is signed, they are in breach and can be sued.

Having spent the majority of my legal career drafting and redrafting multi £bn alternative investment contracts I'm very happy to state that this is a massive load of bollocks. Sorry.

 

[aliyid]

I'm surprised it took so long for Bale to get poopoo'd knew it was inevitable but shame. I wonder why a few ITk's heard it was a possibility.

I think it's linked to the 'first refusal' clause we have in that we can match any offer accepted by Real (this will be twisted as Levy turning down the opportunity by the anti-Levy brigade)

There are three main stumbling blocks in this though:

• Can't see Madrid selling him as both Zidane & Perez have said many times how central Bale is in their plans
• Any bid would be astronomically high
• Wages to go with it would probably be around triple our top earners

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

Having spent the majority of my legal career drafting and redrafting multi £bn alternative investment contracts I'm very happy to state that this is a massive load of bollocks. Sorry.

Why do you apologise for something you're very happy to do?

But more constructively, would you explain in what way it is bollocks?

Thank you.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

 

[SDogg]

So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

Chelsea are in the process of signing 3 new players, there is always room for improvement, in this league you cannot afford to standstill

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Why do you apologise for something you're very happy to do?

But more constructively, would you explain in what way it is bollocks?

Thank you.

It's simple, until the black and white is signed by all relevant parties, no business transaction is binding, and generally the larger the finance involved the greater the amount of paperwork needing signature (and often witness to signature) will be. Even after signing there will often be a form of cooling off period during which amendments can be suggested and minds changed, though not sure if that would be possible in football contracts.

 

[SpursDave88]

So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou are not of sufficient quality. We probably have 16 players of first team quality, our first 11 plus, Trippier, Davies, Son, Lamela and Winks. Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou all need to be improved upon if we are to challenge next year, we are also, probably short of a centre back, and that is assuming noone is sold.

 

[DCSPUR]

So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

broadly agree with all of this. Because of Lamela's injury issues (and possibility of Son's military service) I would like Barkley to join. If Walker goes then Veltman works as he covers two spots. Otherwise the only regret is for the future....wanted Sessegnon

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Chelsea are in the process of signing 3 new players, there is always room for improvement, in this league you cannot afford to standstill

How do you know we aren't? Berbatov, Son, Modric, none of these were in the press until they were done or almost done.

Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou are not of sufficient quality. We probably have 16 players of first team quality, our first 11 plus, Trippier, Davies, Son, Lamela and Winks. Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou all need to be improved upon if we are to challenge next year, we are also, probably short of a centre back, and that is assuming noone is sold.

So, given that Lamela and Son are behind Eriksen and Dele for two positions, and Onomah and Edwards are coming through, why not just ship out Nkoudou and Sissoko and not replace? We'd be left with 4 class players and 2 exciting youths for 2 positions, sometime 3.

Disagree on Janssen, needs another season in my opinion, same as Lamela, Son. We'd have to spend £40m in this market on someone who'd be second fiddle to Kane, better to coach and improve what we have which thankfully is Pochettino's speciality.

 

[DCSPUR]

Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou are not of sufficient quality. We probably have 16 players of first team quality, our first 11 plus, Trippier, Davies, Son, Lamela and Winks. Sissoko, Janssen and N'Koudou all need to be improved upon if we are to challenge next year, we are also, probably short of a centre back, and that is assuming noone is sold.

11 + the 5 you reference + Vorm/ or Pau + Wimmer (who showed real quality in his extended run and would start for Everton and below easily). Minus Walker. Gets you to 17 v good players....add in a RB replacement and probably Barkley and a host of young talent that Poch rates including CCV and 2 U20 WC winners....that is a strong group

 

[coys200]

Chelsea are in the process of signing 3 new players, there is always room for improvement, in this league you cannot afford to standstill

Fact is Chelsea is much easier to upgrade than us.costa leaving and matic.Alonso and Moses are obvious upgrades .Apart from dier in a 343 we really don't have any obvious upgrade .And many would even argue about dier.

 

[King of Otters]

So much painc about transfers.

I for one am delighted that Utd have bought a striker for £75m who wouldn't make our first xi and a centre back for £30m who wouldn't make our first xi.

I'm also delighted to see Arsenal breaking their transfer record for a striker who wouldn't make our our first xi, or if he would have to be unnaturally shunted into a wide position.

It's great to see Liverpool spending £35m on a winger who wouldn't make our first xi and who in fact has already failed in this league.

Only Bernardo Silva signing for City is a player who would threaten our first xi, but it's not as if attack is where they needed to improve anyway and regardless, we can't exactly complain about Ali, Eriksen and Son's output.

Guess which club has been as quiet as us... Chelsea! The club who were our biggest rivals last season. They've only signed Caballero for free to back up Courtois.

It's very hard to improve when you have little room to do so, especially without being financially doped. Of course we could improve on certain first teamers but only by spending ludicrous amounts for genuinely fractional improvements which would be far from guaranteed anyway.

If you take our generally accepted first choice 343, the players on the fringes are Vorm, Trippier, Davies, CCV, Wimmer, Winks, Onomah, Son, Lamela, Sissoko, Janssen. Only place we're obviously light is an alternative strong DM, but that's where Dier's versatility comes in anyway. To upgrade on any of these, even the full backs, we would probably have to approach our transfer record... how on earth do you do that for someone not as good as you already have in the first team?

For me, a loner term deals for Toby and Son, trimming some deadwood and progressing Winks, Onomah, KWP and Edwards is key, if we can do that then I'd accept no new signings. It may not be the most exciting approach but we managed to assemble a world class team all over before transfer prices went totally mental, the ability not to be held to randsom for even mediocre players is our reward.

A few wonderful anomalies aside, 99% of the Spurs players I grew up watching would not get near our best 25 now, never mind bench or first team. And it's great seeing our rivals throw crazy money at players who will never be as good as the lads alredy wearing our shirt!

Whether or not any of our rival's summer signings would make our first team (your conclusions are all highly debatable btw) is entirely beside the point.

Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal, City have all improved their first xi, and Cheslea surely will soon enough.

Meanwhile, we stand still. And anyone who thinks that a club which won the square root of fuck all last season, and crashed out of the CL in the group stages, can't possibly improve on their first xi needs to have a word with themselves.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

How do you know we aren't? Berbatov, Son, Modric, none of these were in the press until they were done or almost done.



So, given that Lamela and Son are behind Eriksen and Dele for two positions, and Onomah and Edwards are coming through, why not just ship out Nkoudou and Sissoko and not replace? We'd be left with 4 class players and 2 exciting youths for 2 positions, sometime 3.

Disagree on Janssen, needs another season in my opinion, same as Lamela, Son. We'd have to spend £40m in this market on someone who'd be second fiddle to Kane, better to coach and improve what we have which thankfully is Pochettino's speciality.

Except Lamela will be out for at least half a season and Son will likely miss the first month. I think Poch is looking for a speedy WF, but so far it hasn't worked with N'Jie, GNK or Sissoko.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

It's simple, until the black and white is signed by all relevant parties, no business transaction is binding, and generally the larger the finance involved the greater the amount of paperwork needing signature (and often witness to signature) will be. Even after signing there will often be a form of cooling off period during which amendments can be suggested and minds changed, though not sure if that would be possible in football contracts.

Evidently you missed the context in which this came about (it's been a long thread) and reached an inappropriate conclusion.

Levy was accused of acting illegally by shaking hands on deals and then breaking the deal when it came to negotiating the contract.

So the point is: either it is a simple contract that exists on the shake of a hand, in which case it can be breached before a written contract exists and therefore the breach is actionable, or, as I explained in posts you've not referred to but appear to agree with, if it is a complex transaction like a transfer that requires a written contract that contains all the necessary conditions of the deal, it can't be breached until the written contract has been completed.

Since neither case applied, I was arguing that Levy hadn't acted illegally.

Do you agree with that?

 

[DCSPUR]

Whether or not any of our rival's summer signings would make our first team (your conclusions are all highly debatable btw) is entirely beside the point.

Liverpool, Utd, Arsenal, City have all improved their first xi, and Cheslea surely will soon enough.

Meanwhile, we stand still. And anyone who thinks that a club which won the square root of fuck all last season, and crashed out of the CL in the group stages, can't possibly improve on their first xi needs to have a word with themselves.

Ok so serious question who would you suggest Levy buys and who would they replace in the first X1?

 

[King of Otters]

Ok so serious question who would you suggest Levy buys and who would they replace in the first X1?

I don't have the expertise to make those decisions. That's for our scouting department, Poch, Levy and presumably Pleaty to determine.

 

[DCSPUR]

I don't have the expertise to make those decisions. That's for our scouting department, Poch, Levy and presumably Pleaty to determine.

In the opinion laden world of SC, after your patronzing tone to @BringBack_leGin 's sensible post, you have nothing.
Good to know. Moving on.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Evidently you missed the context in which this came about (it's been a long thread) and reached an inappropriate conclusion.

Levy was accused of acting illegally by shaking hands on deals and then breaking the deal when it came to negotiating the contract.

So the point is: either it is a simple contract that exists on the shake of a hand, in which case it can be breached before a written contract exists and therefore the breach is actionable, or, as I explained in posts you've not referred to but appear to agree with, if it is a complex transaction like a transfer that requires a written contract that contains all the necessary conditions of the deal, it can't be breached until the written contract has been completed.

Since neither case applied, I was arguing that Levy hadn't acted illegally.

Do you agree with that?

Yes, I do.

Fwiw I was fine with everything else you were saying in other posts, just wanted to address the assertion that a binding multi million pound contract could exist without a signed paper trail.

 

[npearl4spurs]

I feel like I've halfway earned my MBA in today's ITK thread.

Also quite bored of posters and ITK having a go at each other, but at least has stayed respectable for the most part.