The high press...

[Strikeb4ck]

i like the way dortmund press. they wait until the ball reaches a certain area and then all swarm at them, rather than doing it right from the front. i think that way they conserve their energy better whereas others start to die out around the 60 minute mark.

Dortmund and Salzburg (2 standout examples) play an evolution of the high pressing game called counterpressing. That is, they actually give the ball away purposefully at times, kicking it into an area where they have already accumulated players for the defensive phase. So for instance, players slowly swarm the right side, a defender clears/hoofs it to the right, and they are in position to press with crazy intensity, win the ball and attack as quickly as they can. It's pretty fascinating actually, here's a good bit on it.
http://jamieadams3.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/red-bull-salzburg-pressing-vs-ajax-tactical-analysis/

 

[hodsgod]

It is also entirely possible that defenders mark you more tightly in the Premier League, and are also allowed to get away with a lot more here than defenders are allowed to get away with in La Liga. I think this is most evident at set pieces where the 'jostling' in the box in the EPL is far more physical than in Spain.

You only have to look at the youtube videos people use to justify Soldado being a good player, the defending is bloody awful. The top of La liga is good but the bottom is shite.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

You only have to look at the youtube videos people use to justify Soldado being a good player, the defending is bloody awful. The top of La liga is good but the bottom is shite.

I would agree with some of that. La Liga's top 5-6 could give most if not all Premier League teams a run for their money, but our other 15 teams shit on theirs.

Last season's Southampton would post a cricket score against Rayo Vallecano

 

[StartingPrice]

You only have to look at the youtube videos people use to justify Soldado being a good player, the defending is bloody awful. The top of La liga is good but the bottom is shite.

That's not really true, though. What folk need to do is watch vids of our games last season. Watch for when Soldado is playing on the shoulder of the defence, we get possession and he points to exactly where and when he wants it. Then watch the number of times when he did that the player in possession stopped, slowed play, looked round and then either played the ball sideways or backward. Watch for the frustration on Soldado's face. Then watch the number of times, this opportunity to play him in quickly, playing to his strengths, has been squandered, the second ball either comes in to the box in a manner that would suit a totally different type of striker, or (particularly in Townsend's case - not that I'm picking on him), a shot is blasted toward the goal, usually with very little accuracy, and surrendering possession. Again, watch for the frustration on Soldado's face.

If you can see all of this, then you have to conclude that it doesn't really matter if the defending in La Liga is awful - because Soldado is still getting into exactly the same positions against EPL defenders and, we must assume, if he had been played in in a manner benefiting his strengths, then, prospectively, at least, he would have scored a fair few of them.

And that is the point Shea is making (I believe): the stats, without human analysis, may show the same number of chances in the same parts of the penalty area, or whatever, but there is no context to them. There is a huge difference between a chance that is constructed to maximize a player's strengths and one he is trying to force from unfavourable position because he isn't getting any chances playing to his strengths. It is no different to a striker who scores 99% of his goals from headers having the ball played to his feet while he is surrounded by oppos players and then saying he has had the same number of chances in the same areas.

And if you watch Soldado in Spain, without fussing over how good, bad or indifferent the defenders are, just what positions he takes, what his movement is, how and when he wants/receives the ball, and how he finishes from that position, you will see why he was always taking up those positions and pointing to where he wanted the ball - and, maybe, understand why he was getting so frustrated. Further (and, again, I'm not saying this to have a go at Defoe), if you watch the number of times Defoe tries this and is offside, and then the number of times Soldado does it and isn't, you will see that this is, indeed, a deliberate movement by Soldado and a definite strong point.

 

[tottenmal]

@StartingPrice if I could rate that post a hundred times I would.

The play last season was so slow and lethargic under AVB, there is a reason that stat about us having the most shots on goal was so popular. We just weren't playing those clever passes that Soldado was getting into space for and getting nowhere (that I think he eventually gave up trying).

And Tim didn't help the situation, reverting to a "give it to Erikson (occasionally Soldado) and let him cross it in for Ade to header in" tactic.

 

[robertgoulet]

Dortmund and Salzburg (2 standout examples) play an evolution of the high pressing game called counterpressing. That is, they actually give the ball away purposefully at times, kicking it into an area where they have already accumulated players for the defensive phase. So for instance, players slowly swarm the right side, a defender clears/hoofs it to the right, and they are in position to press with crazy intensity, win the ball and attack as quickly as they can. It's pretty fascinating actually, here's a good bit on it.
http://jamieadams3.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/red-bull-salzburg-pressing-vs-ajax-tactical-analysis/

Here's another article on that...ran across it while looking at the post-match stuff for Fire/Spurs.

http://www.hottimeinoldtown.com/201...bout-shapes-mls-cup-mommy-whats-gegenpressing

 

[hodsgod]

That's not really true, though. What folk need to do is watch vids of our games last season. Watch for when Soldado is playing on the shoulder of the defence, we get possession and he points to exactly where and when he wants it. Then watch the number of times when he did that the player in possession stopped, slowed play, looked round and then either played the ball sideways or backward. Watch for the frustration on Soldado's face. Then watch the number of times, this opportunity to play him in quickly, playing to his strengths, has been squandered, the second ball either comes in to the box in a manner that would suit a totally different type of striker, or (particularly in Townsend's case - not that I'm picking on him), a shot is blasted toward the goal, usually with very little accuracy, and surrendering possession. Again, watch for the frustration on Soldado's face.

If you can see all of this, then you have to conclude that it doesn't really matter if the defending in La Liga is awful - because Soldado is still getting into exactly the same positions against EPL defenders and, we must assume, if he had been played in in a manner benefiting his strengths, then, prospectively, at least, he would have scored a fair few of them.

And that is the point Shea is making (I believe): the stats, without human analysis, may show the same number of chances in the same parts of the penalty area, or whatever, but there is no context to them. There is a huge difference between a chance that is constructed to maximize a player's strengths and one he is trying to force from unfavourable position because he isn't getting any chances playing to his strengths. It is no different to a striker who scores 99% of his goals from headers having the ball played to his feet while he is surrounded by oppos players and then saying he has had the same number of chances in the same areas.

And if you watch Soldado in Spain, without fussing over how good, bad or indifferent the defenders are, just what positions he takes, what his movement is, how and when he wants/receives the ball, and how he finishes from that position, you will see why he was always taking up those positions and pointing to where he wanted the ball - and, maybe, understand why he was getting so frustrated. Further (and, again, I'm not saying this to have a go at Defoe), if you watch the number of times Defoe tries this and is offside, and then the number of times Soldado does it and isn't, you will see that this is, indeed, a deliberate movement by Soldado and a definite strong point.

That's a lot of words trying to say he isn't pony, well he was for the second half of last season, he was bloody awful as a goal scorer and I think most would agree. I also think Defoes average goals per game ratio will be better than Soldados at Spurs. He was offside a lot, and I was never a fan, I preferred Keane, however he could score.

Soldado needs to score goals, no analysis, good or bad, will change the record book.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

That's a lot of words trying to say he isn't pony, well he was for the second half of last season, he was bloody awful as a goal scorer and I think most would agree. I also think Defoes average goals per game ratio will be better than Soldados at Spurs. He was offside a lot, and I was never a fan, I preferred Keane, however he could score.

Soldado needs to score goals, no analysis, good or bad, will change the record book.

The team needs to score more goals. If Soldado can help make that happen by playing a ball wide for Lamela to run onto, or playing a ball through so Lennon can run onto, then I am happy with his contribution. Everyone needs to take their chances well, but as has been mentioned numerous times here - the quality of the chances are just as critical.

The thing that excites me most about seeing Spurs implement Pochettino's philosophy is that it looks designed to create as many chances against players who are out of position as possible. If the front four are clicking, we will be counting the team goals, and not worrying about individual goal counts. I actually expect Lamela to be the leading goal scorer by the end of the season - but Lamela, Soldado, Adabayor, Eriksen, Kane, (hopefully Rodriguez), Chadli, Lennon will all see better opportunities than we saw last season.

 

[beats1]

You only have to look at the youtube videos people use to justify Soldado being a good player, the defending is bloody awful. The top of La liga is good but the bottom is shite.

I would agree with some of that. La Liga's top 5-6 could give most if not all Premier League teams a run for their money, but our other 15 teams shit on theirs.

Last season's Southampton would post a cricket score against Rayo Vallecano

Sure you aren't confusing him with flat track bully negredo. Soldado in the last 2 seasons at valencia has goals against:
Seville 4 goals in 4 games, Always have a lower goals conceded
Malaga 4 in 3 games, CL quarter finalists
Real Madrid 2 in 4 games, CL semi finalist and La liga winners
Atletico Madrid 2 in 3 games, won Europa league and finished 3rd
Real Sociedad 3 in 2 games, qualified for CL
Atletic Bilbao 5 in 4 games, Europa league finalists

20 goals in 20 games against the top teams in La Liga

 

[Gilzeanking]

Getting back on topic . There's interesting stuff in all these stats and examples of high pressing . One factor not highlighted so much is the sheer effort required of the players to make these pressing systems work . It would be revealing to know how many Ks Poch's Soton team/Salzburg's team were putting in .

So , at its heart , the centrepiece of effective pressing is effort from the players . Poch will need enthusiastic endorsement of his system and a shedload of work from our boys . It seems possible that at a 'smaller' team , players may be more open
to the idea of extra graft to achieve success .

Our history of hard working teams is patchy , this pressing won't work if 30% of our players aren't into it . There has already been observed an incident where Poch was shouting match instructions to Kaboul who just laughed at him . You can't read too much into one -offs like this of course , but motivating our players will be a mix of carrot and stick . I hope Poch can effectively use the stick rather than just marginalising errant players by training them with the kids/or alone .

 

[myhartlane]

What these simplistic statistical analyses tend not to take into account are the psychological factors affecting performance.

I think that the time it takes to settle into a new environment, new team, social dynamic can all have a significant impact on performance. When things don't start as well as expected then that adds further pressure.

I suspect many of the 'mysteries' hinted at in the article will be solved next season.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Sure you aren't confusing him with flat track bully negredo. Soldado in the last 2 seasons at valencia has goals against:
Seville 4 goals in 4 games, Always have a lower goals conceded
Malaga 4 in 3 games, CL quarter finalists
Real Madrid 2 in 4 games, CL semi finalist and La liga winners
Atletico Madrid 2 in 3 games, won Europa league and finished 3rd
Real Sociedad 3 in 2 games, qualified for CL
Atletic Bilbao 5 in 4 games, Europa league finalists

20 goals in 20 games against the top teams in La Liga

I never said he didn't score against good teams, just said that the EPL's mid table and lower is better than La Liga's.

 

[eddiebailey]

Getting back on topic . There's interesting stuff in all these stats and examples of high pressing . One factor not highlighted so much is the sheer effort required of the players to make these pressing systems work . It would be revealing to know how many Ks Poch's Soton team/Salzburg's team were putting in .

So , at its heart , the centrepiece of effective pressing is effort from the players . Poch will need enthusiastic endorsement of his system and a shedload of work from our boys . It seems possible that at a 'smaller' team , players may be more open
to the idea of extra graft to achieve success .

Our history of hard working teams is patchy , this pressing won't work if 30% of our players aren't into it . There has already been observed an incident where Poch was shouting match instructions to Kaboul who just laughed at him . You can't read too much into one -offs like this of course , but motivating our players will be a mix of carrot and stick . I hope Poch can effectively use the stick rather than just marginalising errant players by training them with the kids/or alone .

Great post. I have no doubt that when Tim was coach he wanted a high press, he spoke about it often enough and that is how his Nextgen and U21 teams always played; perhaps his failure to carry this out successfully in the Premiership was due to deficiencies of coaching, but when he took over the squad he commented that they were not fit enough to press for 90 minutes (under AVB that he had not needed to be, because we prioritised possession), and in the months that followed there seemed to be a reluctance from the players to maintain discipline and put in the work. Tim would tell a player what he needed to do to get back into the team, and the player would come back in and run his socks off for 90 minutes in order to make a point, then lapse back into old habits.

Poch is going to have to either win hearts and minds or grab them by the balls and not let go.

 

[michaelden]

That's why I worry Sandro and certainly Dembele aren't going to be quite right for Poch. I'm not sure if players that pick up so many niggles will see much playing time. To play a high line like that you really need all your players to be 100% fit.

I think he meant fit as in stamina not fit as in uninjured

 

[Good Doctor M]

I think he meant fit as in stamina not fit as in uninjured

They may as well be one and the same. Sandro isn't ever going to have the stamina he would (should have) if he can't stay injury free for long periods. And I don't think there was any stage last season that Dembele, although not injured was ever fully fit.

To have good levels of stamina you can't be dropping out of training for weeks at a time intermittently throughout the season.

 

[SpurSince57]

So actually I do not agree that the EPL being more physical is a "myth" at all. It can't be if you are being challenged 3x as much both on the floor and in the air, being pressured more, and being required to run more. In actual fact I would say that it is pretty solid evidence that the Premier League is certainly more physical than La Liga

The Bundesliga is often said to be much more like the EPL in terms of pace and physicality, yet I clearly recall Berbatov saying that he had far less time on the ball than in Germany.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

The Bundesliga is often said to be much more like the EPL in terms of pace and physicality, yet I clearly recall Berbatov saying that he had far less time on the ball than in Germany.

Indeed, a lot of players talk about how adjustment to the physicality of the EPL is required - Cazorla, Hazard, Aguero etc

 

[StartingPrice]

That's a lot of words trying to say he isn't pony, well he was for the second half of last season, he was bloody awful as a goal scorer and I think most would agree. I also think Defoes average goals per game ratio will be better than Soldados at Spurs. He was offside a lot, and I was never a fan, I preferred Keane, however he could score.

Soldado needs to score goals, no analysis, good or bad, will change the record book.

It was just the right amount of words to explain:

1) why your contention (that folk just need to watch La Liga defenders in order to understand how poor they are, and thus understand why Soldado didn't score as much as we would have liked) was wrong.

2) why are amount of statistics comparing how many chances he had, and where those chances were, with both us and Valencia, is wholly insufficient as an explanation of his poor goal return last season.

He was not great as a goal-scorer in the second half of the season. I think you are mistaken if you believe anyone is trying to argue otherwise. What some of us are arguing that a combination of tactics and, by that stage, total loss of confidence/belief that any tactics beneficial to his skill-set were ever going to be played, together with the actuality of being dropped, go further to explaining his poor goal return than saying he's crap, or he just isn't suited to English football (because La Liga defenders are crap).

Despite me going out of my way to state explicitly that I wasn't attacking Defoe, you have made it about a direct comparison between him and Defoe Defoe was good at certain things and not good at certain things, the same applies to Soldado. Defoe's habit of being caught off-side when he was on the shoulder of the defence and a through-ball was played became a truism among Spurs fans. Soldado is very good at reading this situations, staying onside, timing his run, getting in front of the defence and hitting the target. Which is why he was always pointing where and when to play the ball, and getting frustrated when play was slowed and then moved wide or back. Hence the irony I felt, after seeing Soldado doing this, to see defoe, in his first start, receive two perfect through balls, mis-time his run and be caught off-side Defoe did score a decent GPG ratio. he was also notorious for blasting the ball in the direction of the net (usually to zero avail) when a simple pass would have put a colleague through for a relatively easy chance. I, myself, personally, once watched him run across the outside (left to right) of a mass defended area (where a laser beam would have had squeezing through, let alone a football), get to the far age and run back the whole same way to the other corner, such was his determination that he personally was going to get a shot on goal, and then blast the ball into the legs of the massed defence - when on more than one occasion he could have slotted a pass through for a better placed team-mate (I am sure I am hardly the only one to remember this or similar incidents). I will be making my judgments on something less deceptive

A striker (Soldado) needs to score. No-one has said otherwise. He also needs to interact with his colleagues to help with build-up play, creation of assists and defending from the front/pressing (which, ironically, what this thread was supposed to be about before it metamorphosis-ed into yet another poorly reasoned let's slag Soldado off thread). When United first came to the fore neither Brian McClair nor Mark Hughes was particularly prolific - but the percentages were vastly improved by having them in the team. Only in the most basic and simplistic of tactical set-ups is the amount of goals a striker scores the be-all and end-all.

And sadly, in your short, terse and, therefore almost pre-determinedly poorly explicated response, have you actually addressed the arguments made in my post. Rather than addressing poor team play, leading to failure to play to Soldado's strengths as a(partial, at least) explanation of his lack of goals, and hence the inadequacy of the statistics replied, you have merely asserted that he didn't score many goals and that isn't good enough. Try to address the arguments made...please