Where would we be

[ItsBoris]

What a load of flannel.

Then we disagree, no need to be hostile about it.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Then we disagree, no need to be hostile about it.

I just cant believe a poster of your calibre came up with it in the first place mate.

 

[ItsBoris]

I just cant believe a poster of your calibre came up with it in the first place mate.

I made two assertions, 1.) The team we had in 2010 is better than the team that has been starting games for us recently. 2.) This will change when our injured players return.

I don't see what I've said that you think is so ridiculous.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

I made two assertions, 1.) The team we had in 2010 is better than the team that has been starting games for us recently. 2.) This will change when our injured players return.

I don't see what I've said that you think is so ridiculous.

It was more the 'we would be in shitsville'.

"AVB is a better manager with worse players."

Both, horrific statements judging by what we've seen so far, that's what I disagreed with. We're not going to agree so probably best to move on eh.

 

[ItsBoris]

It was more the 'we would be in shitsville'.

"AVB is a better manager with worse players."

Both, horrific statements judging by what we've seen so far, that's what I disagreed with. We're not going to agree so probably best to move on eh.

It's not an easy thing to analyze, there are way too many variables to be confident in any conclusion but that is my opinion based on what I've seen so far. I may well be wrong, but you may be wrong as well. Obviously I think I'm right or else I wouldn't be posting it.

 

[werty]

In the season we finished 4th, Modric and Lennon were the players who made the most starts on the wings. Our midfield back then was also effective and Hudd was playing better then that he is now.

I would argue that the midtable of the league has improved significantly since that season so it is now harder to take points. In 2010, 2 teams that got relegated in the coming years finished in 9th and 10th (Birmingham and Blackburn). Now the midtable teams have become pretty strong - Everton, Newcastle, Liverpool, Swansea, West Brom, Fulham, Norwich, Stoke, West Ham - most of those teams are playing well and they are going to be pretty tough games home or away.

When Harry was our manager we were usually dominated by bigger teams anyway, with AVB I feel like we are not getting dominated as badly. The game against Chelsea for instance, I think we created a lot of chances but they won because they took their chances. Still we didn't get dominated. Against Arsenal we didn't get dominated even with 10 men, we came out in the 2nd half and gave it a real go, and we created chances. Against City and United in the second half we got dominated. However in all of those fixtures last season we were dominated, except maybe for the Chelsea home game. Against these 4 teams last season we won 1 game in all competitions, so AVB's already matched that even if we lose/draw every other game.

The reason I say I don't think Harry would be doing better is because I remember what happened last season at Old Trafford and at home to City when we didn't have Modric, either completely absent or mentally absent. Even then we still had VDV. When we played without them in the cup competitions we were absolutely horrendous (Stevenage away comes to mind), so I really don't think he would have had us anywhere near 4th but that's just me. I still think we are suffering the after effects of last season's meltdown.

Don't have the exact figures for that season on me now, but I think Modric only started 21 games and Lennon 19. That's still half of a season missing two of our best and most creative players, plus games were they played when they were getting back their fitness. Lennon, for instance, played the last couple of game that season, but wasn't any where near as good as he was before his injury

I don't think the midtable teams are better than they were that season. Certainly not significantly and half of the teams you mentioned above aren't any better than average.

I also disagree on you notion that Harry's team were usually dominated by bigger teams. Against City, the year we finished 4th we won 3-0 at home and 1-0 away and deserved both wins. The following season we battered them at home, especially in the first half, but Hart pulled off world class save after save and we drew. We were as good as them away from home and only lost because of a freak OG. The next season we gave a good account of ourselves up there and should have won it in the end. The only game they dominated us in was the 5-1 at home and we didn't have a midfield that day. Arsenal we, in general, were pretty poor against, but still managed two wins (and should have won the season before we finished 4th when it was 0-0). He done brilliant against Chelsea at home, but not so good away. The 5-1 in the cup was the only game I'd say we didn't turn up in, but I think that score flattered Chelsea on the day. We done very good home and away (especially home) against Liverpool (when they were top 4 challengers too). United are the only team where I'd say we never played a good game in, but we rarely did in 20 years. Add in great performances against both Milan teams I'd say he's done as good as any manager would have done in the big games.

And I think we're getting dominated more by big teams now (3 games have been away in AVB's defence). Bar 15 minutes at the start of the second half against Chelsea were the second best team. They should have won by more. City dominated us from start to finish, not just the first half. We had a good start with XI against Arsenal, but 20 minutes doesn't make a match so it's hard to guage how we would have done over 90. I do think we were dominated from then on out though. We gave a good account in the second half, but Arsenal completely took their foot off the gas. We done well in the first half against United by taking our two chances, but we couldn't get out our own half in the second half against them and were dominated, although quite comfortably at times, for most of the game.

We had a few poor performances without them two last year, but we had poor performances with them too. The Stevenage game had a completely disjointed team and formation that I don't think he would ever play in the league. I think motivation was a factor then too, similar to what the players are going through in the Europa League this season. In fact, we were better we our second string last year than we have been with our first XI this year.

I don't think last season's "meltdown" has anything to do with what's happening this season. We've sold and bought enough players that alot of the 1st teamers now had nothing to do with it so they should be effected. Add in new management and coaches and it's a poor excuse. Plus, we had a similar poor end to the season before and started last season better than any other season.

 

[ItsBoris]

Don't have the exact figures for that season on me now, but I think Modric only started 21 games and Lennon 19. That's still half of a season missing two of our best and most creative players, plus games were they played when they were getting back their fitness. Lennon, for instance, played the last couple of game that season, but wasn't any where near as good as he was before his injury

I don't think the midtable teams are better than they were that season. Certainly not significantly and half of the teams you mentioned above aren't any better than average.

I think all the teams I listed are pretty tough places to go play at. I certainly think the midtable teams are more impressive this season but you may disagree.

I also disagree on you notion that Harry's team were usually dominated by bigger teams. Against City, the year we finished 4th we won 3-0 at home and 1-0 away and deserved both wins. The following season we battered them at home, especially in the first half, but Hart pulled off world class save after save and we drew. We were as good as them away from home and only lost because of a freak OG. The next season we gave a good account of ourselves up there and should have won it in the end. The only game they dominated us in was the 5-1 at home and we didn't have a midfield that day. Arsenal we, in general, were pretty poor against, but still managed two wins (and should have won the season before we finished 4th when it was 0-0). He done brilliant against Chelsea at home, but not so good away. The 5-1 in the cup was the only game I'd say we didn't turn up in, but I think that score flattered Chelsea on the day. We done very good home and away (especially home) against Liverpool (when they were top 4 challengers too). United are the only team where I'd say we never played a good game in, but we rarely did in 20 years. Add in great performances against both Milan teams I'd say he's done as good as any manager would have done in the big games.

That year was against Mark Hughes Man City. The 1-0 was just after he was sacked and Mancini took over. Since then we haven't beaten them once.

In the last 2 seasons how many 'big games' did we win under Harry? We never beat United (lost 3, drew 1), we never beat Chelsea (lost 2 drew 3), we never beat City (lost 3 drew 1), and we did beat Arsenal (won 2, lost 2, drew 1 - still with a -4 goal difference though) - that includes cup games. So out of 18 "big games", we won 2 - and in both those games against Arsenal we certainly weren't controlling the game. So you still contend that we didn't get dominated in big games?

And I think we're getting dominated more by big teams now (3 games have been away in AVB's defence). Bar 15 minutes at the start of the second half against Chelsea were the second best team. They should have won by more. City dominated us from start to finish, not just the first half. We had a good start with XI against Arsenal, but 20 minutes doesn't make a match so it's hard to guage how we would have done over 90. I do think we were dominated from then on out though. We gave a good account in the second half, but Arsenal completely took their foot off the gas. We done well in the first half against United by taking our two chances, but we couldn't get out our own half in the second half against them and were dominated, although quite comfortably at times, for most of the game.

Don't be ridiculous, they didn't take their foot off the gas. We were good, even with 10 men. The only game we haven't been significantly weakened by injuries was the United game, which we won. AVB's been very unlucky with injuries so far. In the 18 big games that Harry played, I doubt you could find 3 in which Modric and VDV weren't available.

We had a few poor performances without them two last year, but we had poor performances with them too. The Stevenage game had a completely disjointed team and formation that I don't think he would ever play in the league. I think motivation was a factor then too, similar to what the players are going through in the Europa League this season. In fact, we were better we our second string last year than we have been with our first XI this year.

Come on you can't be serious, we didn't get out of the group last season with an easier group.

I don't think last season's "meltdown" has anything to do with what's happening this season. We've sold and bought enough players that alot of the 1st teamers now had nothing to do with it so they should be effected. Add in new management and coaches and it's a poor excuse. Plus, we had a similar poor end to the season before and started last season better than any other season.

To me it feels like there is still some of it carrying over, but I may be wrong about that.

 

[King of Otters]

Don't know. It's very hard to say but I think we'd probably a bit better off, which is to be expected really.

The thing that worries me is not so much the points tally, which, although not great, isn't that bad either, but the depressing football we've been playing. I largely put that down to us not replacing Rafa and Rateface but even so I was hoping for a little more from AVB on that front to be perfectly honest.

Still, I guess it's early days yet.

 

[dontcallme]

We might be a little better off. There would possibly have been better continuation if the same manager stayed and HR usually got us off to a decent start.

Any manager would struggle with the loss of King, Modric and VDV. Whoever you replace them with will not do the job to do the same calibre straight-away and the change in dynamic would have to change.

But long-term I believe we needed a change. Whether AVB is the right change remains to be seen.

 

[werty]

I think all the teams I listed are pretty tough places to go play at. I certainly think the midtable teams are more impressive this season but you may disagree.



That year was against Mark Hughes Man City. The 1-0 was just after he was sacked and Mancini took over. Since then we haven't beaten them once.

In the last 2 seasons how many 'big games' did we win under Harry? We never beat United (lost 3, drew 1), we never beat Chelsea (lost 2 drew 3), we never beat City (lost 3 drew 1), and we did beat Arsenal (won 2, lost 2, drew 1 - still with a -4 goal difference though) - that includes cup games. So out of 18 "big games", we won 2 - and in both those games against Arsenal we certainly weren't controlling the game. So you still contend that we didn't get dominated in big games?



Don't be ridiculous, they didn't take their foot off the gas. We were good, even with 10 men. The only game we haven't been significantly weakened by injuries was the United game, which we won. AVB's been very unlucky with injuries so far. In the 18 big games that Harry played, I doubt you could find 3 in which Modric and VDV weren't available.



Come on you can't be serious, we didn't get out of the group last season with an easier group.



To me it feels like there is still some of it carrying over, but I may be wrong about that.

I think Liverpool and Villa wereas good as any of the Top 4 contenders this season. Everton finished 8th with 61 points, which suggests there were at least 8 very good teams that year. Fulham made it to the UEFA Cup final that season, which again suggests that the midtable teams were pretty good. Mancini was in charge for a a good few months when we played them, so I don't think you should underestimate that game. Plus, it was probably the biggest game we've played in Harry's tenure, and we were the better team and should have won by more. We may not have the greatest results against the other top teams in the last two years, but there were plenty of games against them were we should have won (like Chelsea away last year and a few other examples I gave) which suggested we weren't dominated in every game. Losing and being dominated are two different things. No one is going to go through 4 years of games and not be dominated by teams with better players and more resources. You conviently didn't mention the big Champions League games two years ago, and why just mentioned the last two years? He was in charge for longer than that.

Arsenal definitely took their foot off the gas. As soon as they went 4-1 up they stopped attacking. If they kept playing the way they did in the first half it would have been 6 or 7. We probably could have scored couple more ourselves. It's not a fair game to judge either way becuase we were going well with XI. I don't know how often Modric and VDV have been unavailable together, but as I showed in my first post, we played half a season without a lot of key players and won some big games. It's not as if Harry hasn't had injury problems, but he's still had his side play much better than we are now.

We may have had a tougher group (Rubin Kazan are pretty good (they've just topped their group with Inter in it) and other than Lazio this year the teams are poor. Panathinaikos were as bad as anything we faced last year (well, maybe not Shamrock Rovers). Birmingham even beat Maribor last year!) this year, but we end up with 10 points last year with mainly a second string. That's the maximum we can get this year.

 

[ItsBoris]

The situation was the same before they went 4-1 up. We were still bossing it from the beginning of the second half and they nicked one on the break.

It seems like you don't want to see reality on this. There is no way that Arsenal would take their foot off the gas at home in a derby. Believe me they would want to put as many past us as possible.

 

[werty]

The situation was the same before they went 4-1 up. We were still bossing it from the beginning of the second half and they nicked one on the break.

It seems like you don't want to see reality on this. There is no way that Arsenal would take their foot off the gas at home in a derby. Believe me they would want to put as many past us as possible.

We got a bit of control of the game, but I'd hardly say we were bossing the start of the second half.

The game was over at 4-1. The scoreline was already embaressing. Most of their players were on international duty a few days before and they had a big CL game in a few days time. Going for more would have just wasted their energy on a game they had already won.

 

[danielneeds]

Ultimately it's a total punt surmising how Harry would be doing with this bunch of players, but I don't see much difference in defensive cohesion, pattern of play and work rate from AVB's side yet, maybe Harry is a better motivator, but with injuries to key players and no Luka and Rafa, we've had I don't see how he could have done any better.

The disappointing thing is that AVB's coaching and methodology is supposed to achieve more with similar resources, but at the moment there aren't any signs of that happening.