The anti-Stratford protests begin!

bigturnip said:

Does anyone know when/if the OPLC's recommendation will be announced, or do we have to wait for Boris, Eric and Jeremy to make the final decision and announce it?

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I believe OPLC will make their recommendation, then it goes to Boris and the Government to ratify it (or not).

bigturnip said:

Does anyone know when/if the OPLC's recommendation will be announced, or do we have to wait for Boris, Eric and Jeremy to make the final decision and announce it?

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Preferred bidder is announced next Friday. Final decision on 31st March

Eek

sloth said:

On this, we weren't interested in the OS as long as we thought the running track was a pre-requisite. Once it was indicated to us (possibly via AEG) that an athletics legacy didn't have to mean at the OP and we had this confirmed by Boris Johnson (who, it's rumoured, may have been the prime instigator is our involvement anyway) and thus, that were a bid to be made by us which precluded retention of the running track it would be given serious consideration, we made our move.

As for the NDP and the obstacles put in our way by the council. Clare Kober (leader of Haringey council) points out that:

"Such negotiations and agreements are entirely normal and an accepted part of the country’s planning system and a scheme of this scale will always be subject to a planning obligation (s.106 agreement)."

And that

The S106 and 278 (which covers some highway improvements) agreements amount to a total of around £15-£16million.

S106 is a relatively small proportion of the total predicted £450million cost of the development – around 3.5 per cent. Note also that the cost is an investment that will bring returns to THFC."

And her point is that it's not much, it's standard for council's to charge developers like this and that it represents an investment rather than a cost to Spurs.

Which is well and good as far as it goes.

But what hasn't been weighed against this is the council's evaluation of the cost to the neighbourhood if Spurs leave.

Let's take this away from football for a moment and look at how it works in other walks of life.

When major investors consider where to invest their money they look at who wants their investment the most. If Honda are considering to keep a plant in the UK, or Tata to invest over here, the government moves heaven and earth to persuade them.

They don't come along and say we really want your business now pay us for the privilege, because what's inherent in the idea of the investment proposal is the concept of future revenue through increased taxes and decreased welfare payments.

Think of it like this, two shops competing for business, but one decides to charge you a door fee to come in, where are you going to spend your money?

Unfortunately for the council they believed they were the only shop in town and for that reason they thought they could get away with charging a fee to us for the privilege of spending money in their store. Not only that, but they also prevented or didn't try to stop a bunch of other chancers also trying to take a bit of us.

Once CABE and EH decided that we would only be allowed to build half the number of flats we wished the council, Lammy and co should have been press releasing the hell out of anyone who they could persuade to listen that these narrow, unelected, unaccountable quangos were jeopardising the only chance of investment Haringey had or was likely to have in generations.

We heard nothing from them. This is because they thought they had us by the short and curly's.

The sad thing is, we know they can make a noise when motivated to do so, but they were complacent. When we said hang on, these additional restrictions are in real danger of making this unaffordable or at least an unacceptably high risk, they said... nothing. They did... nothing. They said this is how it works in standard planning applications so stump up or eff off.

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So many facts! Where does one start?

Yes, it is standard practice for councils to charge developers for S106 and S278. Spurs will probably find Newham doing the same. I'm sure Haringey would have loved to cover the cost themselves, but unfortunately there's the small matter of a 20% budget cut this year, some £63m, with another £40m-odd to follow over the next three years. Added to that, there's a well-founded fear that the rent cap will see families who can no longer afford to live in inner London boroughs flooding into Haringey. Still, I'm sure Haringey could have made a few more cuts to help Spurs out. What would you suggest?

As for the nonsense about 'chancers' CABE and English Heritage, where does one start? CABE liked the basic plan but thought there were elements that didn't quite work. Guess what. They were right. You didn't need to be a trained architect to see that, you just needed to use your eyes and brain. And if there are now only half the number of flats, what does that tell you about the size of the originals?

Not only EH, but a fair few Spurs fans, including several on here, were concerned that the Red House in particular was to be demolished.

You have no idea whatsoever of what Lammy and the council actually did or did not do regarding these issues.

bigturnip said:

If you'd have been writing this time last week we would be just inside the CL places, the teams around us, with the exception of Man City, have all fallen back in the last few years, so maybe their model isn't working.

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and at any other time during the season we would have been outside the top 4.

I'm not quite sure it is time to write off Chelsea, United and Arsenal just yet.

sloth said:

Yes it is.

There's usually at least a couple of strata on SC. Those who argue from the hearts and those that argue from their heads. We all know the passion and I don't have to agree but I don't expect less from people arguing from their hearts, but I do expect more from some people who are usually from the "thinker" group, but who are pretending to argue rationally but are being deliberately skewed and I'd say intellectually dishonest.

The poster I was replying to has been patiently replying to many people like this, whereas I find I can't be bothered any more.

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The issue as I see it, is that there are people who seem to be advocating staying at all costs.

Personally I believe that if they actually think about it, they will realise that there is a point at which staying could be too costly. For example, the unrealistic extreme of bankrupting the club, would I'm sure, lead some of those people to consider the move.

If that is the case, then they may realise that there is a cost that is too high to pay for staying put, and some consideration might be given to what a realisitic trade-off actually is.


I think discussions like this can actually have a wider impact, becuase an idea grows the more it is given away. I've had to stop myself from writing some inflammatory remarks in some cases, because it will only serve to derail the discussion, and I think this is a critical issue in the clubs history - and the reaction of the fans could have a real impact.


I share the passion of most people on this issue, and I would absolutely love if the NDP was the best option in this case, because I do value our history and think that it is always, always preferable to stay true to ones roots. I just don't believe it should come at any cost.


I think people are right in wanting to maintain the connection to our history, but I think they may not be giving enough credence to writing what will become our history.



I would really like to know do those who outright oppose the stratford move, beleive that we should stay at all costs? If so, then it there really is no discussion to be had.

@those opposed to the stratford move

Do you favour the NDP at all costs - even at the cost of Bankruptcy (which I'm not saying is realisitic)?

tottenham_til_i_die said:

and at any other time during the season we would have been outside the top 4.

I'm not quite sure it is time to write off Chelsea, United and Arsenal just yet.

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I'm not writing them off, just saying the argument of them pulling away from us with their big stadiums or sugar daddys just doesn't hold water when you look at the last few seasons. With more and more money pouring into the game from sponsorship and TV deals along with games becoming more accessible to watch on TV or online maybe a big stadium could actually end up being a burden in a few years time.

So why would you mention it then?

Levy and the board obviously felt that the NDP would allow us to grow and continue competing - which is why it was proposed.

Attempts to brand favouring the NDP as regressive are just disingenuous or stupid.

I favour staying in Tottenham even at a higher financial cost. Which is the difference between the two bids.

jj87 said:

So why would you mention it then?

Levy and the board obviously felt that the NDP would allow us to grow and continue competing - which is why it was proposed.

Attempts to brand favouring the NDP as regressive are just disingenuous or stupid.

I favour staying in Tottenham even at a higher financial cost. Which is the difference between the two bids.

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the point of mentioning it is to set an upper limit on the cost people are willing to pay in order to stay put.

When you say you favour staying in Tottenham even at a higher financial cost, how much higher? At the extreme end of the scale is bankruptcy.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

The issue as I see it, is that there are people who seem to be advocating staying at all costs.

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Yep, and the issue as I see it is their are people who are advocating going to Stratford without any concrete facts.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

Personally I believe that if they actually think about it, they will realise that there is a point at which staying could be too costly. For example, the unrealistic extreme of bankrupting the club, would I'm sure, lead some of those people to consider the move.

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This could well be the case with a move to Stratford, unless you have some numbers to show us.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

If that is the case, then they may realise that there is a cost that is too high to pay for staying put, and some consideration might be given to what a realisitic trade-off actually is.

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The costs of moving are far too high, and I'm not talking financial costs.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

I think discussions like this can actually have a wider impact, becuase an idea grows the more it is given away. I've had to stop myself from writing some inflammatory remarks in some cases, because it will only serve to derail the discussion, and I think this is a critical issue in the clubs history - and the reaction of the fans could have a real impact.

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Let's hope the reaction of the fans has a real impact, after all it is their football club, without the fans their would be no Tottenham Hotspur.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

I share the passion of most people on this issue, and I would absolutely love if the NDP was the best option in this case, because I do value our history and think that it is always, always preferable to stay true to ones roots. I just don't believe it should come at any cost.

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:rofl: So not 'always, always' then.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

I think people are right in wanting to maintain the connection to our history, but I think they may not be giving enough credence to writing what will become our history.

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I want to maintain our history, not a connection to it. More than that I want to maintain the values, community and spirit of the club.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

I would really like to know do those who outright oppose the stratford move, beleive that we should stay at all costs? If so, then it there really is no discussion to be had.

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Yes, but there is discussion to be had, because there seem to be a lot of pro-Stratford people misrepresenting the facts, I would hate for any fans to be swayed to the dark side because of constant misreporting in the media and miscommunication on forums such as this.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

@those opposed to the stratford move

Do you favour the NDP at all costs - even at the cost of Bankruptcy (which I'm not saying is realisitic)?

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No, I favour staying in Tottenham at all costs.

bigturnip said:

I'm not writing them off, just saying the argument of them pulling away from us with their big stadiums or sugar daddys just doesn't hold water when you look at the last few seasons. With more and more money pouring into the game from sponsorship and TV deals along with games becoming more accessible to watch on TV or online maybe a big stadium could actually end up being a burden in a few years time.

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and these weren't subject to the FFP rules which are due to be enforced

michaelden said:

and these weren't subject to the FFP rules which are due to be enforced

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Rules that we would quite easily comply with looking at our recent accounts, and rules that would actually put us at an advantage over the likes of Man City and Chelsea.

tottenham_til_i_die said:

the point of mentioning it is to set an upper limit on the cost people are willing to pay in order to stay put.

When you say you favour staying in Tottenham even at a higher financial cost, how much higher? At the extreme end of the scale is bankruptcy.

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The cost id be willing to pay is the cost of the NDP, which was set out and agreed upon by Levy and the board. A cost that was deemed to be reasonable enough to proceed with the development and all the subsequent benefits that it would bring to the club.

That cost has not suddenly become unreasonable, or financially unsustainable now there is a cheaper option in place. People need to be reminded of this, presenting the NDP as not a viable option is deliberately skewing the terms of the debate. And is wrong.

Just a side point re bankruptcy; at the extreme end of saving money is a free stadium, but we all know thats not going to happen, so following things to their illogical extreme has nothing to do with anything.

NDP was going to go ahead. We can afford it. Somehow people seem to have forgotten this. Added to the fact we don't even know where the extra money potentially saved by Stratford is even going to go. This potential saving is not worth what it would mean to me if the club left Tottenham.

This is the best time in my living memory to be a Spurs fan. Winning, and not only winning, playing in the rich tradition for which our club is famous. Beating a fake club like Man City to the 4th spot, in the way that football should be played is something that will stay with me forever. Just as it seems that we are on the cusp of doing great things, and doing it in the right way, not buying our way to success with some mercenaries playing for some billionaire playboy who doesnt know or care about the club, moving to Stratford would undermine all of that. It really would be a tragedy and people will realise it when it's too late.

JUST SAY NO!!

Hope you have all visited www.WeAreN17.co.uk and signed the Petition??

Paxtonette said:

Hope you have all visited www.WeAreN17.co.uk and signed the Petition??

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I won't be joining the West Ham fans signing that until we have some financialistics.

Incidentally does anyone think the petition will be recognised at all? Unfortunately these things tend to get completely ignored and I'm not sure why this one would be different.

I had a quick look and there are a lot of unverified signings on there, along with posts from Harry, Keane, Defoe and VDV. Im sure i saw Garry Glitters name on there as well.

The 6509 signatures they have will be reduced a lot when these get taken out.

Paxtonette said:

Hope you have all visited www.WeAreN17.co.uk and signed the Petition??

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A dozen times :up:

bigturnip said:

Yep, and the issue as I see it is their are people who are advocating going to Stratford without any concrete facts.

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This I think is the primary issue. I don't think anyone is advocating a move to stratford without any facts, what people are saying is that a move to Stratford should not be ruled out without any concrete facts.

The discussion has been based largely on the figures reported in the papers, which may not be accurate, but they offer a reference point for discussion, and the possibility that one development might cost nearly double the other, and offer lower revenue streams. This of course may not be true, equally, it might.

So in the absense of the facts, all we can do is discuss the possible scenarios, based on the limited information we have, until we get the facts - if we get them.

The possible scenario under which people are advocating a move to stratford, is the scenario where the cost of development would be have that of the NDP, with increased revenue streams, meaning greater future prospects for the club.

If it transpires that we don't get a look at the figures, or that the figures show that NDP and stratford are much closer, overall, than is being speculated, then the choice is (I would say for everyone) to stay put.

bigturnip said:

This could well be the case with a move to Stratford, unless you have some numbers to show us.

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It could indeed be the case, and if it is, then we should stay put. But in the eventuality that the NDP is far costlier, and stratford makes a lot more financial sense, then the move to stratford should at the very lease be considered.

bigturnip said:

The costs of moving are far too high, and I'm not talking financial costs.

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There is no price that can be put on the empotional attachment we have to the area, and what it means to us, but staying because of it will [potentially] incur a financial cost, whch could affect the future chances of success of the club.

As Spurs fans a question we may be forced to ask ourselves, depending on what the figures turn out to be, is which we would prefer; A spurs team in N17 almost being able to compete with the big boys; or a Tottenham team in Stratford, regularly challenging for the permiership and Champions League.

Of course, it could be that we have a Tottenham team in N17 winning all round them, which would be everyones ideal, but whether we move or not could potentially affect our future chances of success. To simply ignore this, regardless of the facts, could potentially (not definitely) hold spurs back.

bigturnip said:

Let's hope the reaction of the fans has a real impact, after all it is their football club, without the fans their would be no Tottenham Hotspur.

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Fully agreed, but lets remember that without Tottenham Hotspur there would be no one to support. Let hope that the fans, when voicing their opinion are not dogmatic in their stance, and actually consider the future of the club, as well as its history.

bigturnip said:

:rofl: So not 'always, always' then.

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you're right, not always, always, particularly if the interests of the club are better served in moving.

bigturnip said:

I want to maintain our history, not a connection to it. More than that I want to maintain the values, community and spirit of the club.

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That's absolutely fair, although I'm not sure how the value and spirit of the club will be compromised.

What price are you willing to pay for that though, or rather, what price are you willing to allow the club to pay for that? I'm not talking financially, I'm talking in terms of what will become our history? If it means not realistically challenging for the title or the champions league again in your lifetime, would that be ok?

I'm not saying that we won't be able to compete, but if the cost is significant, then it could materially hamper us.

bigturnip said:

Yes, but there is discussion to be had, because there seem to be a lot of pro-Stratford people misrepresenting the facts, I would hate for any fans to be swayed to the dark side because of constant misreporting in the media and miscommunication on forums such as this.

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Again, this is the issue. I don't think anyone is entirely pro-Stratford. Most of those saying they would consider the move, would only do so if the figures stacked up, and are discussing on the basis that they might. If they don't, then no one will be pro-Stratford.

I think it would be worse for fans to be led by a mob mentality, without at least some rational consideration of the facts, while allowing for the emotive issue of our historical home.