The anti-Stratford protests begin!

[spursphil]

I didn't think the post would cause this much fuss i must say. As SS57 has reported it, i don't know what to do other than leave it with the forum moderators to decide.

 

[stevenqoz]

Samson, agree with much of what you say. One thing I would add is that for most the negotiation period the groups / people on the other side believed that we had no alternative. If you are sure of that in a negotiation, it can make a big difference. This may have brought about ENIC's perception that things were made tougher than necessary in both time and money. Once the OS alternative was known it probably altered the whole basis of discussion.....Haringey like most people involved would be ruing the way things had progressed in negotiation imo

 

[sherbornespurs]

The Harin-gay islamist vegan lesbian single mothers association might be a tad worried about their future funding.
All the pubs will close of course, that wouldn't affect Lammy to much, there is some decent boozers near his second home in south london. Or he could always pop into the subsidized House of Commons bar for a drink with Red Ken and the other Champagne Socialists.

Christ, for an 'orrible minute I thought I'd stumbled onto the Daily Mail's website by mistake.

You're not Richard Littlejohn by any chance?

 

[SpurSince57]

Samson, agree with much of what you say. One thing I would add is that for most the negotiation period the groups / people on the other side believed that we had no alternative. If you are sure of that in a negotiation, it can make a big difference. This may have brought about ENIC's perception that things were made tougher than necessary in both time and money. Once the OS alternative was known it probably altered the whole basis of discussion.....Haringey like most people involved would be ruing the way things had progressed in negotiation imo

The OS option has always been there; it's only AEG's involvement that's made it a serious one. Things have not been made tougher than necessary for the NPD—why would they have been? I'm sure, however, that ENIC are delighted that some of our supporters are under that impression.

 

[talkshowhost86]

The OS option has always been there; it's only AEG's involvement that's made it a serious one. Things have not been made tougher than necessary for the NPD—why would they have been? I'm sure, however, that ENIC are delighted that some of our supporters are under that impression.

I'm not sure anyone thought that particularly until Lammy went flapping his mouth all over the shop saying that our plans were a disgrace and that he'd sue the club if necessary. Until then I'm not sure the Haringey delays were even an issue.

That's top politicianing that is :grin:

In fact if anything has come from this it's that Tottenham seriously needs a new MP.

 

[michaelden]

Samson, agree with much of what you say. One thing I would add is that for most the negotiation period the groups / people on the other side believed that we had no alternative. If you are sure of that in a negotiation, it can make a big difference. This may have brought about ENIC's perception that things were made tougher than necessary in both time and money. Once the OS alternative was known it probably altered the whole basis of discussion.....Haringey like most people involved would be ruing the way things had progressed in negotiation imo

It definitely sounds like the shoe is on the other foot, however helpful or not any of the parties were. If you are the sole provider/ option you can get much and appear reasonable. If you are 1 option of many (or just 2) you tend to be a whole lot more reasonable.

So as put forward by SG above, both sides might be correct, Lammy, TFL, EH, CABE etc... thinking they did enough to facilitate a very complex project. And Spurs thinking well since we now have a 2nd option lets see how much more reasonable they can be now since we really didn't want to redesign the site 3 times or drop capacity to 56000.

 

[stevenqoz]

Ok SS57, theoretically the OS option has always been there...as has using Wembley. Do you believe that Haringey...representing all their stakeholders in the negotiations, progressed in these talks the same way that they would if a genuine AEG backed alternative had been known from the start? The politics of development in Haringey would be perculiarly different to anything I have ever experienced if that was so.

 

[bigturnip]

Aresenal are going to grow in strength financially, City and Chelsea have a blank Chequebook and United are probably going to grow in strength financially, given that the Glazers covered most of the debt (didn't they?).

Like it or not, how we perform financially into the future will have a bearing on our level of success.

Even look at it at the moment, we are just falling short of the CL places and City are only going to improve. At the moment we are in a battle for 4th with the defending champions, and one of the main reasons we couldn't get a striker, or so we've been lead to believe, is because we cannot risk the financial stability of the club.

It has taken us a very long time to get to where we are now, but the teams around us are not going to stand still. If we take on a much bigger financial burden than we need to, we could restrict our future progress.

If you'd have been writing this time last week we would be just inside the CL places, the teams around us, with the exception of Man City, have all fallen back in the last few years, so maybe their model isn't working.

 

[bigturnip]

Eastenders :shrug:

:rofl:

 

[SpurSince57]

I'm not sure anyone thought that particularly until Lammy went flapping his mouth all over the shop saying that our plans were a disgrace and that he'd sue the club if necessary. Until then I'm not sure the Haringey delays were even an issue.

That's top politicianing that is :grin:

In fact if anything has come from this it's that Tottenham seriously needs a new MP.

It was certainly being said by some in the sticky thread, and whilst Lammy has made a complete arse of himself over this issue he's been a pretty decent constituency MP on the whole. And whilst I wish he'd actually thought his case through rather than run his mouth off the idiot way he did, I go along with the basic sentiment. After all, having seen the project given the OK by Haringey and Bojo after barely two years (and just a year after the original planning application was submitted) it's a real slap in the face to hear that Plan A is now Stratford.

Who was it that said:

'As a club, we are proud of our roots in Haringey, and the Northumberland Development Project has the real potential to act a a powerful catalyst for the uplift of the wider area and I am personally delighted to have reached this stage.'

Not that proud, it would seem.

 

[sloth]

what the united fans think of the Glazers is irrelevant to what their financial position is, although their perception of them may have improved since they decided to repay a large chunk of the contentious debt, from their own privately arranged finances.

It is clear that Abramovic isn't splashing the cash like he used to, but he still has the cash there should he decide to inject it, and converting massive debt into equity, in a club he owns, is just one of the ways he can help them financially.



Our ability to pay a large transfer fee and our ability to offer competetive wages were played a significant part in making it that much more difficult






To be taken in the context of his earlier comment





No one really does know the exact figures, except for, perhaps a number of spurs executives. What we can do though, is discuss the possibility that the NDP will saddle us with double the level of debt that stratford would, based on the figures that we have available to us. This would not be an inconsiderable amount, given that it could amount to almost the cost of two football stadia.

The question is, if the figures are accurate, would you be happy to see the club saddled with that extra debt, and potentially reduced revenues to service that debt - given the comments above about the Glazers - just to remain where we are?

Of course, if the figures are not accurate, and there isn't that much of a difference, then there is no argument from pretty much any other spurs fan.

But if they are, is it worth that much to stay where we are, given that it could adversely affect our future prospects.




The issue is, that we require a bigger stadium to compete. NDP was the only game in town, and with respect to the alternative - no stadium development - it was the winner.

However, a second option became available, that potentially could be a lot more cost effective than NDP, as well as potentially offering an improved revenue base, with a quarter of the hassle and almost none of the non-core extras.

Basically, we only had one option, so it had to suffice. Then we came across a potential second option, that could potentially make a lot more financial sense - which, in the current environment, means that it makes a lot more footballing sense too.



Again, however, the figures might be inaccurate. Stratford may not be that much more attractive an option, but if it is, is it worth potentially holding the club back.

It really is a question of sentimentality at what cost?

I admire your indefatigable rationality mate, in the face of (often deliberate) obtuseness from people arguing the other side.

The problem is that what you point out is already understood by some of the people you're pointing it out to. It's not that they haven't the insight, it's that it's inconvenient to the issue they wish to argue so they try and tangle it up, or confuse it, or just not quite see it. I'm not sure if it's just others they're trying to deceive or if by the end of it they're fooling themselves too!

The OS option has always been there; it's only AEG's involvement that's made it a serious one. Things have not been made tougher than necessary for the NPD—why would they have been? I'm sure, however, that ENIC are delighted that some of our supporters are under that impression.

On this, we weren't interested in the OS as long as we thought the running track was a pre-requisite. Once it was indicated to us (possibly via AEG) that an athletics legacy didn't have to mean at the OP and we had this confirmed by Boris Johnson (who, it's rumoured, may have been the prime instigator is our involvement anyway) and thus, that were a bid to be made by us which precluded retention of the running track it would be given serious consideration, we made our move.

As for the NDP and the obstacles put in our way by the council. Clare Kober (leader of Haringey council) points out that:

"Such negotiations and agreements are entirely normal and an accepted part of the country’s planning system and a scheme of this scale will always be subject to a planning obligation (s.106 agreement)."

And that

The S106 and 278 (which covers some highway improvements) agreements amount to a total of around £15-£16million.

S106 is a relatively small proportion of the total predicted £450million cost of the development – around 3.5 per cent. Note also that the cost is an investment that will bring returns to THFC."

And her point is that it's not much, it's standard for council's to charge developers like this and that it represents an investment rather than a cost to Spurs.

Which is well and good as far as it goes.

But what hasn't been weighed against this is the council's evaluation of the cost to the neighbourhood if Spurs leave.

Let's take this away from football for a moment and look at how it works in other walks of life.

When major investors consider where to invest their money they look at who wants their investment the most. If Honda are considering to keep a plant in the UK, or Tata to invest over here, the government moves heaven and earth to persuade them.

They don't come along and say we really want your business now pay us for the privilege, because what's inherent in the idea of the investment proposal is the concept of future revenue through increased taxes and decreased welfare payments.

Think of it like this, two shops competing for business, but one decides to charge you a door fee to come in, where are you going to spend your money?

Unfortunately for the council they believed they were the only shop in town and for that reason they thought they could get away with charging a fee to us for the privilege of spending money in their store. Not only that, but they also prevented or didn't try to stop a bunch of other chancers also trying to take a bit of us.

Once CABE and EH decided that we would only be allowed to build half the number of flats we wished the council, Lammy and co should have been press releasing the hell out of anyone who they could persuade to listen that these narrow, unelected, unaccountable quangos were jeopardising the only chance of investment Haringey had or was likely to have in generations.

We heard nothing from them. This is because they thought they had us by the short and curly's.

The sad thing is, we know they can make a noise when motivated to do so, but they were complacent. When we said hang on, these additional restrictions are in real danger of making this unaffordable or at least an unacceptably high risk, they said... nothing. They did... nothing. They said this is how it works in standard planning applications so stump up or eff off.

 

[SpurSince57]

Ok SS57, theoretically the OS option has always been there...as has using Wembley. Do you believe that Haringey...representing all their stakeholders in the negotiations, progressed in these talks the same way that they would if a genuine AEG backed alternative had been known from the start? The politics of development in Haringey would be perculiarly different to anything I have ever experienced if that was so.

Very used as I am to the habitual incompetence of Haringey Council, I can tell you the project went through astonishingly quickly by any standards, let alone theirs.

 

[bigturnip]

as has been pointed out elsewhere, 35 million of committed funding that would be spent at Stratford under West Ham's proposal goes to Crystal Palace under ours

Might go towards Crystal Palace under ours.

 

[bigturnip]

I admire your indefatigable rationality mate, in the face of (often deliberate) obtuseness from people arguing the other side.

The problem is that what you point out is already understood by some of the people you're pointing it out to. It's not that they haven't the insight, it's that it's inconvenient to the issue they wish to argue so they try and tangle it up, or confuse it, or just not quite see it. I'm not sure if it's just others they're trying to deceive or if by the end of it they're fooling themselves too!

I think it depends on which side of the fence you sit, personally I think this is a good summing up of a few people on the other side of the argument.

 

[sloth]

I think it depends on which side of the fence you sit, personally I think this is a good summing up of a few people on the other side of the argument.

Yes it is.

There's usually at least a couple of strata on SC. Those who argue from the hearts and those that argue from their heads. We all know the passion and I don't have to agree but I don't expect less from people arguing from their hearts, but I do expect more from some people who are usually from the "thinker" group, but who are pretending to argue rationally but are being deliberately skewed and I'd say intellectually dishonest.

The poster I was replying to has been patiently replying to many people like this, whereas I find I can't be bothered any more.

 

[si_yidarmy]

i love spurs fans. we are immense

 

[michaelden]

i love spurs fans. we are immense

and we love you :hug: :quickHETREObrushoff:

now go on your way and never speak of this again

:wink:

 

[michaelden]

Yes it is.

There's usually at least a couple of strata on SC. Those who argue from the hearts and those that argue from their heads. We all know the passion and I don't have to agree but I don't expect less from people arguing from their hearts, but I do expect more from some people who are usually from the "thinker" group, but who are pretending to argue rationally but are being deliberately skewed and I'd say intellectually dishonest.

The poster I was replying to has been patiently replying to many people like this, whereas I find I can't be bothered any more.

Only 8 sleeps to go until decision time :up:

 

[bigturnip]

Yes it is.

There's usually at least a couple of strata on SC. Those who argue from the hearts and those that argue from their heads. We all know the passion and I don't have to agree but I don't expect less from people arguing from their hearts, but I do expect more from some people who are usually from the "thinker" group, but who are pretending to argue rationally but are being deliberately skewed and I'd say intellectually dishonest.

The poster I was replying to has been patiently replying to many people like this, whereas I find I can't be bothered any more.

In general I'm a head rules the heart kind of thinker, but when it comes to Tottenham the very entrenchment it has in my soul seems to rule them both.

 

[bigturnip]

Only 8 sleeps to go until decision time :up:

Does anyone know when/if the OPLC's recommendation will be announced, or do we have to wait for Boris, Eric and Jeremy to make the final decision and announce it?