OmarsComing
Mentally Disturbed Individual!
- Jan 2, 2011
- 7,255
- 7,665
Always hated the ****, fucking CRB.
Smear campaign against Baddiel
- Thread starter Yid121
- Start date
spud
Well-Known Member
- Sep 2, 2003
- 5,850
- 8,794
There is no 'debate'. There is blanket coverage of one man's opinion with little or no regard to the songs about Hitler or hissing that so-called 'fans' of other clubs direct at us. The only concession to the latter's existence is that our chanting 'yids' or 'yid army' is said to cause it. It's pathetic. It employs a twisted logic, and - with apologies to your sensibilities and your 'relevant questions' - it has a huge 'PC bandwagon' behind it.
spud
Well-Known Member
- Sep 2, 2003
- 5,850
- 8,794
Then he should perhaps try again, now that the media is lapping up his every word. I don't suppose that he will though.
Dov67
Well-Known Member
- Jul 1, 2005
- 3,375
- 10,484
I actually find his "you bring it on yourself" reasoning deeply offensive, as well as deeply flawed.
Deeply offensive because it is blaming the victim and giving excuse to the perpetrator. When called a "f****g Jew bastard" walking to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah acouple of years ago, did I bring it on myself by wearing a Yamulka? Was I asking for it? Should I now keep my Yamulka firmly in my pocket so as not to provoke anyone? This line of reasoning itself is antisemitic in my view.
Deeeply flawed because the type of individual who is capable of singing songs about Hitler and make hissing sounds does not need an excuse or stimulus to do so. This seems self evident to me.
Deeply offensive because it is blaming the victim and giving excuse to the perpetrator. When called a "f****g Jew bastard" walking to synagogue on Rosh Hashanah acouple of years ago, did I bring it on myself by wearing a Yamulka? Was I asking for it? Should I now keep my Yamulka firmly in my pocket so as not to provoke anyone? This line of reasoning itself is antisemitic in my view.
Deeeply flawed because the type of individual who is capable of singing songs about Hitler and make hissing sounds does not need an excuse or stimulus to do so. This seems self evident to me.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
There is a debate.
So far our only responses to the debate have been to smear a small-time celebrity speaking our about it and attack anyone who speaks out against the term and give an original definition of the term.
Why are people so desperate to use the terms?
If part of our argument is we started singing it to stand up for members of the Jewish community then surely we should be asking if the Jewish community feels like we are standing up for them.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
Spurger King
can't smile without glue
- Jul 22, 2008
- 43,881
- 95,149
As long as Baddiel continues to stay quiet about the fact that his own supporters are the worst perpetrators of actual racist uses of the word, he'll only cause more damage to the cause and his own reputation.
There may be a general media focus on Spurs, but literally everyone I know who follows football knows that the chelsea and west ham supporters are responsible for the racist abuse...and that Spurs fans use the word in an inclusive and positive sense. Everyone I've spoken to (mainly gooner, Liverpool, Bristol City, and United mates) think Baddiel comes across as an ignorant, hypocritical, washed up moron of the highest order.
It's as if he's a kid being beaten up by his parents but would rather try to accuse his neighbours instead of making his home life more uncomfortable by reporting it. Grow a pair you fucking shrimp of a man and shift your focus to your own collective of knuckle dragging oxygen stealing primitive grunts.
There may be a general media focus on Spurs, but literally everyone I know who follows football knows that the chelsea and west ham supporters are responsible for the racist abuse...and that Spurs fans use the word in an inclusive and positive sense. Everyone I've spoken to (mainly gooner, Liverpool, Bristol City, and United mates) think Baddiel comes across as an ignorant, hypocritical, washed up moron of the highest order.
It's as if he's a kid being beaten up by his parents but would rather try to accuse his neighbours instead of making his home life more uncomfortable by reporting it. Grow a pair you fucking shrimp of a man and shift your focus to your own collective of knuckle dragging oxygen stealing primitive grunts.
Dov67
Well-Known Member
- Jul 1, 2005
- 3,375
- 10,484
other than Baddiel who believes our behaviour "legitimises" the antisemitic references to Hitler etc than are hurled back?
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
A few quotes from Baddiel's recent Guardian article:
Our film was sparked by the behaviour of a Chelsea fan who, sitting a few seats behind me and Ivor one Saturday, decided to upgrade the chant – regularly heard at Stamford Bridge whenever anything Spurs-related comes up – to a more pointed one of "Fuck the fucking Yids! Fuck the fucking Jews!".
However, there is of course a particular issue with Tottenham, some of whose fans passionately feel the Y-word is part of their identity and that their chanting of it is wholly positive. I respect and acknowledge that.
Many Chelsea fans who I have challenged feel they are justified because "the Yids is what Spurs call themselves".
Second, any campaign aimed at stopping the chanting of antisemitic abuse at football matches can't then say: "But of course it's OK for this one set of fans because they mean it nicely." It's simply not workable.
Third, most Spurs fans are not in fact Jewish: the club's "Jewishness" is just a historical association with the area. It's doubtful that more than 5% of those in the ground at home games are actual Jews (only 0.4% of the UK is Jewish, so 5% is way above average). So the reclamation argument does not apply.
Our film was sparked by the behaviour of a Chelsea fan who, sitting a few seats behind me and Ivor one Saturday, decided to upgrade the chant – regularly heard at Stamford Bridge whenever anything Spurs-related comes up – to a more pointed one of "Fuck the fucking Yids! Fuck the fucking Jews!".
However, there is of course a particular issue with Tottenham, some of whose fans passionately feel the Y-word is part of their identity and that their chanting of it is wholly positive. I respect and acknowledge that.
Many Chelsea fans who I have challenged feel they are justified because "the Yids is what Spurs call themselves".
Second, any campaign aimed at stopping the chanting of antisemitic abuse at football matches can't then say: "But of course it's OK for this one set of fans because they mean it nicely." It's simply not workable.
Third, most Spurs fans are not in fact Jewish: the club's "Jewishness" is just a historical association with the area. It's doubtful that more than 5% of those in the ground at home games are actual Jews (only 0.4% of the UK is Jewish, so 5% is way above average). So the reclamation argument does not apply.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
No he doesn't believe that.
There is a big difference between something fuelling a response and legitimising a response.
Dov67
Well-Known Member
- Jul 1, 2005
- 3,375
- 10,484
His own words, not mine - "it legitimises and sustains" antisemitic abuse.
It "legimises" - ie to make legitimate. Is this where we've got to? He and others may disagree but as far as I am concerned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING "legitimises" songs about Hitler and Auschwitz.
Apart from being a deeply deeply offensive thing to say it has also give these scumbags an alibi that they don't deserve. Thanks to Baddiel the only arrest on sunday was of a Spurs fan, and you have the spectacle of some of the most racist supporters in football anywhere chanting that WE are "racists racists" (right after "we can't say his name, but he'sare coming to get you").
Well done Baddiel - good work.
MarcusG
Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 58
- 32
That third point is just plain ignorance, he doesn't know what % of our fan base is Jewish and anyway that is not the point. It is exactly the historical association that has to be taken into context, the same with Ajax. Also the argument that "it's what we call ourselves" is complete hogwash, does he really think the association in the knuckle draggers minds will magically disapear? They will shout antisemitic abuse and hiss at us regardless of what we do. Again, he's got the wrong (but easier) target.
He needs to actively stand up against the racists in his own support and then maybe we can have a proper debate.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
Fair point. I must have missed the part where he said it legitimises it.
Very poor choice of words.
I think the problem here is, partly, that there is a debate here despite some from both sides of the spectrum being small-minded and dismissive about the whole thing.
There are questions to be asked but many intelligent people without any celebrity association simply can't get their views heard. Baddiel as a minor celebrity can and he often says really stupid things, like the above, which moves debate away from the issue.
I don't believe our usage of the term legitimises what are truly disgusting songs. But I do believe we are fuelling the songs. If we were a Jewish club then fair enough but we're not.
Our absolute insistence that we will continue with the chants seems like stubbornness. I can't think of any good reason for us to continue the songs.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,360
- 83,712
I think how Jewish we are is a relevant point. Why are we so insistent on singing songs about an identity that isn't really ours?
I think the best way forward is for Baddiel to disappear. It's not about him. He has started a debate and had the tools to get it into the media.
Now it's time for the debate to move away from a celebrity and onto the issue itself.
Words don't have owners.
Can we tell the French not to use the word "le weekend"? Can they tell us not to use the word "cul-de-sac"?
Of course not. The idea is preposterous.
Spurs fans have as much right to use the word "yid" as anyone else. Like any other word, it is just a noise that is formed in our vocal cords and shaped in and expelled from our mouths. Or it is a collection of symbols in a specific order that is displayed on a page, another surface or computer screen.
That is all.
There is no copyright on it. It can't be banked for safe keeping from others. It is just a word.
It was never "reclaimed" by Spurs fans, as is often erroneously imagined. It was adopted. Or donned like a new suit.
Adopted and donned for a very good reason - to show solidarity; to draw the sting from the taunts of anti-semites. And it fucking well worked.*
The word subsequently came to mean something else altogether. Just as many other words have done in the past and, undoubtedly, will do in the future.
What is sad is that the word was originally a Jewish word but Baddiel and other similarly ignorant commentators on this matter don't want to return it to Jewish people. Oh no..........they insist that the only owners of the word should be anti-semites. Why, for crying out loud? It's an utterly brainless notion.
There is so much that is wrong about Baddiel's Guardian article that I barely know where to start. So I will restrict myself to pointing out that the entire premise of his argument is flawed. The word "yid" is no more a race hate word than the word "Jew". They mean one and the same. Context is everything. Everything.
As I said, a word is just a noise or a collection of symbols. It only has meaning within a context.
And anyone who wilfully ignores context is, by definition, wilfully ignorant.
Over to you, Baddiel and Herbert.
* At least, it did until two bob Baddiel and ulterior motive Herbert started sticking their unwanted oars in.
That would be because his argument is that Spurs fans using the word "Yid", regardless of intent, acts to legitimise it's use by others.
That standard, "well if they can say it so can we" defence. A defence which is of course bollocks but which crops up on here continuously in various guises. The amount of posts on the Adebayor and Campbell chants suggesting ways of legitimising them was ridiculous or claiming that they weren't racist or homophobic anyway because the words "nigger" and "poof" weren't included.
Football fans can be utterly moronic at times in defending their own idiocy and his suggestion that if nobody says it then it has no legitimacy at all is a fair enough point.
He's simply saying, you can clamp down all you want on fans using it as a term of abuse but until Spurs fans stop using it then someone will always see it as valid to say to Spurs fans/players. Go look on a West Ham forum to see the exact argument some of them make that if Spurs fans use it so can they.
THIS A MILLION TIMES
Baddiel is a spineless worm who is more concerned with blending in with racist monkeys at Chelsea then tackling the real problem - namely that lots of people just dont like Jews. However we behave that is always going to be the case. Why should I do anything to appease a bunch of knuckle dragging fucks because David feels uncomfortable at football??
Whats the Yiddish for Uncle Tom?
At no point has he ever suggested that.
MarcusG
Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 58
- 32
Agree that it's time the debate moved on, however I honestly believe that we will always be associated with our Jewish roots simply because of our history and where we are situated and that it will also be an excuse for the knuckle draggers to hurl anitsemitic abuse
spud
Well-Known Member
- Sep 2, 2003
- 5,850
- 8,794
Leaving aside what 'workable' means, why isn't it?
Black people can call themselves 'nigger' without mass media campaigns - and threats of arrest - against it. Others are, rightly, not allowed to do so. Is that 'workable' David? If not, why aren't the black offenders threatened with arrest? He would no doubt argue that it isn't jews calling themselves 'yids' and it is therefore a different situation. That is pure sophistry, as it is the principle with which he is supposed to be concerned.
The bottom line on this is that Baddiel couldn't give a flying fuck about general anti-semitism or racism at football matches. This whole crusade of his is simply to create an environment at Stamford Bridge where he and his brother don't feel uncomfortable. The easiest way to do this isn't to attack his own fans for their blatent hate-filled anti-semitism, because that would result in personal discomfort. Far better to get the knuckle-draggers onside by instituting a campaign against the hated Tottenham. If all goes well, he might even become a hero at Stamford Bridge.
Baddiel is a hypocrite and a coward.
