The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 23rd June 2015

Joshua · Jun 23, 2015

SHaRD said:
Honestly - Stambouli is a better player than Imbula.
Better positional sense and a better passer.

Stambouli is the French Holtby, he tries hard but the talent isn't there. There's a reason he was behind Mason, Bentaleb, Dembele and even Paulinho last season. Imbula is an upgrade on him at least imo.

Everlasting Seconds · Jun 23, 2015

Xeeleeyid said:
I don't actually think Kramer and Imbula are too dissimilar in one key aspect: From what i've read and watched they both have a very high work ethic and very high stamina/physical stats. I'd say in Pochettino's midfield this aspect is valued above many others.

Also, we've got to consider most of the targets seem to be 25 yrs old or younger, so even if they're slightly out in terms of style, presumably they are able to be coached, or that is the idea. We have seen players adapt and develop under Poch from even how they were playing under previous management.

We also had Trix I think it was explaining yesterday that choice of player can be guided by total number of generally desirable qualities, rather than looking at a more narrow specific range of qualities. Which means that if player A has X qualities which at first glance are important, and player B has X + 3 qualities but maybe a skill set which differs from what you'd expect, player B may be preferred due to total amount of useful skills.

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

Joshua said:
Stambouli is the French Holtby, he tries hard but the talent isn't there. There's a reason he was behind Mason, Bentaleb, Dembele and even Paulinho last season. Imbula is an upgrade on him at least imo.

Still not the right upgrade IMO. will struggle against sides who sit deep against us which is about 95% of the time.

jbstarr14 · Jun 23, 2015

atoubasrightfoot said:
A grand national situation? So you could back Imbula at 10/1, Kramer 12/1, MS at 50/1 or Sandro returning at 60/1?

Sandro could injure himself just sitting on a chair, let alone trying to jump one.

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

Everlasting Seconds said:
We also had Trix I think it was explaining yesterday that choice of player can be guided by total number of generally desirable qualities, rather than looking at a more narrow specific range of qualities. Which means that if player A has X qualities which at first glance are important, and player B has X + 3 qualities but maybe a skill set which differs from what you'd expect, player B may be preferred due to total amount of useful skills.

True but this is no good. There is one main underlying issue that's been troubling us for a few years and MS has the ability to solve that. We should be looking at players with that particular attribute if we can't get MS. Which we can't by the way.

Joshua · Jun 23, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
Still not the right upgrade IMO. will struggle against sides who sit deep against us which is about 95% of the time.

Oh yeah, I'd definitely prefer MS or Kramer to him still

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

Joshua said:
Oh yeah, I'd definitely prefer MS or Kramer to him still

Yep

As someone who goes to the Lane at least 5-6 times a season, the same issue keeps repeating itself. We become stuck and incredibly frustrated against sides that sit deep against us. our central midfield options over the last couple of seasons is a massive reason to why we still struggle. We keep buying the same sort of player and the problem does not resolve.

TheAmerican · Jun 23, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
On all the videos I've watched of Imbula, he dwells on the ball for far too long just like Dembele. He seems a bit chaotic and tries to dribble out of trouble but it seems very last ditch to me. He'd struggle to find space playing for us against most teams and would end up passing it back or sideways. Failing that he'd loose the ball in a dangerous area and we'd instantly be put under pressure, playing right into the opposition's hands.

Our main problem (has been for years) is how slow we move the ball from defence to attack. Granted this isn't helped with our lack of pace and runners in behind, but what is the point of buying more of the same in such a key area we continue to go wrong in? Despite his positional weaknesses, why do you think Poch went with Mason over Dembele/Paulinho?

Have you watched an entire game of his? Marseille set up the same exact way that we do, as Poch's system is based on Bielsa's. Imbula is at the center of most play. He wins the ball and begins the drive forward. Marseille often attack very quick, Imbula in no way impairs their counter-attack speed (he often starts these attacks).

Have you based your opinion entirely on highlight videos? It's not really an effective way to judge a player like a CDM, as the best players often have to do the least amount of work due to their positional intelligence and lack of mistakes. Those youtube videos will of course show him shielding the ball and driving past players like Dembele does. But, they will not show how Romao was in trouble, so he dumped the ball to a well covered Imbula who then dribbled his way out of trouble and passed the ball on, continuing the play. His teammates trust him and he carries the middle of the field. He shows incredible football intelligence and leadership for a 22 year old. He is also very tactically responsible, which is why he has flourished under Bielsa. He presses well and tracks players through the midfield. He is also, in fact, a very good passer. He's not the sideways passing nightmare that Dembele is. The weak part of his game is finishing, but in a system that relies on goals from the wingers and striker, it is not all that great a loss.

He is very different from any player that we have. While he is not all that similar to Schneiderlin (Kramer is more-so), he is similar in the right ways. I would say he ticks all the appropriate boxes, and trust our scouting team that he does as well. He knows where to sit in the midfield, he knows how to keep the play moving, he is defensively responsible and he isn't mistake prone. He isn't a deep lying playmaker, but we aren't looking for one. He is, however, a damn better option to pair next to Bentaleb than any of our current lot.

@Bobby__Lucky · Jun 23, 2015

SHaRD said:
Honestly - Stambouli is a better player than Imbula.
Better positional sense and a better passer.

Quicker?

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

TheAmerican said:
Have you watched an entire game of his? Marseille set up the same exact way that we do, as Poch's system is based on Bielsa's. Imbula is at the center of most play. He wins the ball and begins the drive forward. Marseille often attack very quick, Imbula in no way impairs their counter-attack speed (he often starts these attacks).

Have you based your opinion entirely on highlight videos? It's not really an effective way to judge a player like a CDM, as the best players often have to do the least amount of work due to their positional intelligence and lack of mistakes. Those youtube videos will of course show him shielding the ball and driving past players like Dembele does. But, they will not show how Romao was in trouble, so he dumped the ball to a well covered Imbula who then dribbled his way out of trouble and passed the ball on, continuing the play. His teammates trust him and he carries the middle of the field. He shows incredible football intelligence and leadership for a 22 year old. He is also very tactically responsible, which is why he has flourished under Bielsa. He presses well and tracks players through the midfield. He is also, in fact, a very good passer. He's not the sideways passing nightmare that Dembele is. The weak part of his game is finishing, but in a system that relies on goals from the wingers and striker, it is not all that great a loss.

He is very different from any player that we have. While he is not all that similar to Schneiderlin (Kramer is more-so), he is similar in the right ways. I would say he ticks all the appropriate boxes, and trust our scouting team that he does as well. He knows where to sit in the midfield, he knows how to keep the play moving, he is defensively responsible and he isn't mistake prone. He isn't a deep lying playmaker, but we aren't looking for one. He is, however, a damn better option to pair next to Bentaleb than any of our current lot.

I appreciate your analysis, and I hope you are right if we do end up with him. I just go by what I've seen and he tends to hold onto the ball quite a lot.

Also on a side note, do you think it will be a bit of a mis-match as Bentaleb is left footed, so is Imbula?

Khilari · Jun 23, 2015

Joshua said:
Stambouli is the French Holtby, he tries hard but the talent isn't there. There's a reason he was behind Mason, Bentaleb, Dembele and even Paulinho last season. Imbula is an upgrade on him at least imo.

Clearly, Pochettino and his coaching staff agree with you.

I'm surprised though, he hardly played and when he did I thought defensively he was really good at retaining possession, getting out of tight spots and getting the ball to one of our creative players.

But he didn't add much to our forward play and was very much a sideways passer and a breaker-up of play (like Parker was for us).

It seems Poch likes both CMs to be involved in our defensive and attacking play (the "double pivot" people talk about).

But I don't think Schneiderlin is particularly good at picking out forward passes - he does get forwards but does he contribute to Southampton's attacking play often? I don't know the answer.

dk-yid · Jun 23, 2015

WiganSpur said:
Whilst I agree, I would definitely rather Imbula than no one. He is still better than what we have, and has great scope for improvement at 22.

But again, if we signed Imbula then it would really make you question why we aren't going 4-3-3 anytime soon. It's perfect for our team bar one player in Eriksen who still wouldn't be in that unfamiliar of a position on the left.

Undoubtedly though for me Kramer or MS would probably be our best buy since Lloris.

I am not sure that I would rather have Imbula than no-one. He may have scope for improvement, but so do our own lot of young players. So unless we believe that Bentaleb, Mason, Delle Alli etc. cannot step up and develop to fill our gaps then I don't see the rationale for adding another midfielder to the heap. Again though, Imbula might be exactly what Poch deems necessary ...

And to your second point on the 4-3-3, I personally do not see it being much different to a more fluid functioning 4-2-3-1. I think that going 4-3-3 right now with the same players would give us the same end result. Ponderous, cramped, static attacking football. I watched two great performances at the under-21 last week; Denmark - Germany and Denmark - Serbia. The performances of Denmark (vs. Serbia) and Germany vs. (Denmark) where virtually the same with the fluidity coming from dynamic and mobile attacking players interchanging constantly. Behind them midfielder who retained possession, passed with accuracy and urgency and did not make mistakes. They play 4-3-3 and 4-3-2-1 respectively yet the similarities were striking. Either way. IMO Imbula does not fit for me in this given his style - he is well suited for Bielsa's insanely high pressing style, turning it over and marauding forward from interception and then giving it to the strikers. Poch relies more on possession than Bielsa does, and for that creating space in possession/absorbing and dealing with pressure to protect the defence and making things tick as a lynchpin is more important.

But please do not read this as me saying he is not a good player.

dk-yid · Jun 23, 2015

crokey said:
Just cannot see us being the best team going for Kramer

Booooooooooooooooohh.......

Sadly, you are right I think.

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

Khilari said:
Clearly, Pochettino and his coaching staff agree with you.

I'm surprised though, he hardly played and when he did I thought defensively he was really good at retaining possession, getting out of tight spots and getting the ball to one of our creative players.

But he didn't add much to our forward play and was very much a sideways passer and a breaker-up of play (like Parker was for us).

It seems Poch likes both CMs to be involved in our defensive and attacking play (the "double pivot" people talk about).

But I don't think Schneiderlin is particularly good at picking out forward passes - he does get forwards but does he contribute to Southampton's attacking play often? I don't know the answer.

Schneiderlin is incredibly good at picking out players with long forward passes

Joshua · Jun 23, 2015

Khilari said:
Clearly, Pochettino and his coaching staff agree with you.

I'm surprised though, he hardly played and when he did I thought defensively he was really good at retaining possession, getting out of tight spots and getting the ball to one of our creative players.

But he didn't add much to our forward play and was very much a sideways passer and a breaker-up of play (like Parker was for us).

It seems Poch likes both CMs to be involved in our defensive and attacking play (the "double pivot" people talk about).

But I don't think Schneiderlin is particularly good at picking out forward passes - he does get forwards but does he contribute to Southampton's attacking play often? I don't know the answer.

Scored 5 goals and created 20 chances. Not too bad I'd say?

longtimespur · Jun 23, 2015

Joshua said:
Scored 5 goals and created 20 chances. Not too bad I'd say?

I can't understand why Stambouli get's as much stick as he does. I know he's very slow but he's had a few decent games for us and has been having special coaching as we've seen pre-match when not playing.

I'm hopeful MP has got some more speed in his legs for next season cos I 'd hate us to just buy for the sake of it again.

TheAmerican · Jun 23, 2015

mikeeegreen said:
I appreciate your analysis, and I hope you are right if we do end up with him. I just go by what I've seen and he tends to hold onto the ball quite a lot.

Also on a side note, do you think it will be a bit of a mis-match as Bentaleb is left footed, so is Imbula?

I don't think it's all that important for a midfield pairing. Modern footballers are good with both feet (Imbula and Bentaleb both are). There are plenty of examples of successful midfield pairings with the same strong foot, as well (Modric and Parker, Matuidi and Rabiot, etc).

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

TheAmerican said:
I don't think it's all that important for a midfield pairing. Modern footballers are good with both feet (Imbula and Bentaleb both are). There are plenty of examples of successful midfield pairings with the same strong foot, as well (Modric and Parker, Matuidi and Rabiot, etc).

Very true

SpursSvedala · Jun 23, 2015

am_yisrael_chai said:
Good luck with that. The truth is we all know how this summer will progress because we've seen the movie before with the same director. The script never changes only the actors do. So expect a long summer of being linked to players the manager wants and the team needs only to end up signing a bunch of dross that fits neither objective. ITK is like a light relief to try and alleviate the tedium of the repeated script. The really important things at the club this summer are happening off the pitch; stadium sponsorship and an NFL franchise. Get those and then in a few years time maybe we will actually buy some of the players we need. In the interim, enjoy our youth players.

If you are going for this really bitter cynical view, you totally forgot about us selling our best players also. Would have made it complete (n)

. Like selling Lloris to ManU, them selling De Gea to RM and then RM selling Casillas to..... Arsenal

mikeeegreen · Jun 23, 2015

TheAmerican said:
I don't think it's all that important for a midfield pairing. Modern footballers are good with both feet (Imbula and Bentaleb both are). There are plenty of examples of successful midfield pairings with the same strong foot, as well (Modric and Parker, Matuidi and Rabiot, etc).

How about CB pairing? You see a lot of right footers paired together but never really Lefties. I'm asking mainly due to the possibility of Vertonghen and Wimmer being played together.

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