Buy "ordinary" Experience or Coach what we have debate

if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it then does it make a sound? just because you haven't seen whether a player is "ready" yet doesn't mean that they aren't. case in point - nabil bentaleb.

Blake Griffin said:

if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it then does it make a sound? just because you haven't seen whether a player is "ready" yet doesn't mean that they aren't. case in point - nabil bentaleb.

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But the club felt nabil was ready. Just cause you feel a player is ready doesn't mean they are.

barry said:

Milos is not ready, he might be one day but not now. It wasn't like he was tearing up trees at boro.
Your one game review on McCarthy and mason is ludicrous. I can show you games where an inferior player out peforms a more notably player. Does that make them better. Ludicrous.
Our academy is good but if the coaches feel a player from outside could add something to the team on a more consistent basis than an untried academy player. I'll go with them. We take punts on cheap players. If the club are willing to spend big on McCarthy they obviously feel he can add a lot to the first team. He was the best of his generation in Scotland and been playing regular premiership football since he was a teenager.
Not every player, not matter what potential you belive they have, can be coached into a world beater.
I like mason, but he's had his fair share of poor games and mistakes this season. I don't know if McCartney is better but someone obviously does.
Many prem teams have decent youngster. How many actually make the step up.

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Many who have seen them play would argue that Veljkovic and Winks are more ready for the first team then Bentaleb was when we signed Paulinho & Capoue, yet 6 months (and a new manager later) later and Bentaleb gets his debut and doesn't look out of place at all and 1 year after that and Bentaleb is out 1st choice CM.

Also, excuse us for not having faith in our recruitment team in regards to McCarthy, but when our 2nd choice for CB, if we couldn't get Alderweireld is Evans and we are looking at Hernandez as back up for our loan striker, it is difficult to. Are you confident that Evans and Hernandez can add something to the team because our recruitment team do?

barry said:

But the club felt nabil was ready. Just cause you feel a player is ready doesn't mean they are.

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No the "club" didn't, Sherwood did, because he knew the youth team. He also felt Veljkovic was close to ready, as he brought him on as sub a couple of times.

barry said:

But the club felt nabil was ready. Just cause you feel a player is ready doesn't mean they are.

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sherwood felt he was ready .. and likewise just because the club feel a player isn't ready doesn't mean they aren't. why do fans back the coaches' judgment when it comes to whether a young player is ready or not but things like signings, team selections, formations, tactics, substitutions etc are all fair game to analyse and criticise?

Veljkovic was ready to make appearances 18 months ago. He should be getting minutes under his belt.

mpickard2087 said:

Veljkovic was ready to make appearances 18 months ago. He should be getting minutes under his belt.

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And nobody has said he won't.

barry said:

Milos is not ready, he might be one day but not now. It wasn't like he was tearing up trees at boro.
Your one game review on McCarthy and mason is ludicrous. I can show you games where an inferior player out peforms a more notably player. Does that make them better. Ludicrous.
Our academy is good but if the coaches feel a player from outside could add something to the team on a more consistent basis than an untried academy player. I'll go with them. We take punts on cheap players. If the club are willing to spend big on McCarthy they obviously feel he can add a lot to the first team. He was the best of his generation in Scotland and been playing regular premiership football since he was a teenager.
Not every player, not matter what potential you belive they have, can be coached into a world beater.
I like mason, but he's had his fair share of poor games and mistakes this season. I don't know if McCartney is better but someone obviously does.
Many prem teams have decent youngster. How many actually make the step up.

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'Best of his generation in Scotland' - so have you watched much Scottish football ? Or read press reports, or spotted how many Scottish footballers are in PL ? If that's part of the best accolade he warrants, I'm very worried.

Yes he's a decent PL player,. but at £20m ?? Not worth it. I'm not certain how much better he actually is to that which we have, although he clearly has more experience.

I'd prefer Mitchell to find a better player for £20m or more likely a better value player who offers experience to complement our younger CM:s, remembering that Mason/Bentaleb are likely to have learned a lot from their first PL season and likely to improve from last season.

Veljkovic played at aged 15 in his first team friendly - made a few mistakes but looked a very accomplished player. Last pre-season he looked good in the pre-season friendlies , and would no doubt have stayed at Spurs were it not for the expensive dross CM's in the squad. Shame he got a bad loan at Boro where he hardly played - but got very good reviews from Boro fans when he did - they were not expecting the quality of passing. A wasted 14/15 season for him - he was ahead of Bentaleb 2 years ago in youth football, commonly called a 26 year old in a 19 year olds body due to his composure and reading of the game, so hope that he gets the chance this season to show that he too can step and emulate Bentaleb's progress.

I think there is no simple answer, but there is no point spunking 15 mil on a 'decent player', or even 30m on a very decent player. We need to sign the right type of player. If there is a Naybet/Davids/VDV to be had then get him in, if not let's not panic buy. Weve got Velkijo... that serbian fellow and Dele Alli as options in the centre of the park and even Alderwiereld.

The one player I would go for is that Australian guy at Palace, he is a beast or Ki from Swansea, but only because they are upgrades (IMO) on what we have and have premiership experience and only at the right price.

Also as for McCarthy, when Everton finished 5th had Barry next to him the whole season. I would be honestly happier with signing Barry than McCarthy (well maybe not now) but the more experienced midfielder with class.

I just really hope we don't gamble on a run of the mill CM like James McCarthy.

Spursidol said:

'Best of his generation in Scotland' - so have you watched much Scottish football ? Or read press reports, or spotted how many Scottish footballers are in PL ? If that's part of the best accolade he warrants, I'm very worried.

Yes he's a decent PL player,. but at £20m ?? Not worth it. I'm not certain how much better he actually is to that which we have, although he clearly has more experience.

I'd prefer Mitchell to find a better player for £20 or more likely a better value player who offers experience to complement our younger CM:s, remembering that Mason/Bentaleb are likely to have learned a lot from their first PL season and likely to improve from last season.

Veljkovic played at aged 15 in his first team friendly - made a few mistakes but looked a very accomplished player. Last pre-season he looked good in the pre-season friendlies , and would no doubt have stayed at Spurs were it not for the expensive dross CM's in the squad. Shame he got a bad loan at Boro where he hardly played - but got very good reviews from Boro fans when he did - they were not expecting the quality of passing. A wasted 14/15 season for him - he was ahead of Bentaleb 2 years ago in youth football, commonly called a 26 year old in a 19 year olds body due to his composure and reading of the game, so hope that he gets the chance this season to show that he too can step and emulate Bentaleb's progress.

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I'm not saying Mccarthy is the answer. The club are. I haven't watched nearly enough of him to form am opinion,but people who have seen him seem suitably impressed.
Milos could be gods gift to football. I don't know. Let him do what pritchard did then bring his name into the debate.
The problem is I think some of you put too much faith in the youth setup. More often I'm seeing this dude's shit let's replace him with someone from the academy. This position is a problem, but this academy graduate tore up that position for the u21 let's try him.
It's just not feasible
Due to social media and youtube everyone seems to think they know as much as our couches in regard to our players.
We have a coach who takes risks on youth, if he thinks they're ready he'll play them.

Blake Griffin said:

if a tree falls in the woods and no one's there to hear it then does it make a sound? just because you haven't seen whether a player is "ready" yet doesn't mean that they aren't. case in point - nabil bentaleb.

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No it doesn't make any sound. It is our brains that convert the vibrations our ears pick up into what we percieve as sound.

I think the simple answer is we need both. The programme 'suits' - one experienced been there done it won it guy, one top of the class new kid who learns from experienced guy and has that edge to make a difference now - dream team.

We need this through the middle of the Pitch.
Gk - tick
Cb - tick
CM - need 1x experienced
CF - need 1x experienced 1xprospect

WF - 1×prospect

I'm all for Suarez and Llorente for experience to help the youth develop and to come into big games with a calm head - experience through the middle would push us closer to top 4

SamR said:

I think the simple answer is we need both. The programme 'suits' - one experienced been there done it won it guy, one top of the class new kid who learns from experienced guy and has that edge to make a difference now - dream team.

We need this through the middle of the Pitch.
Gk - tick
Cb - tick
CM - need 1x experienced
CF - need 1x experienced 1xprospect

WF - 1×prospect

I'm all for Suarez and Llorente for experience to help the youth develop and to come into big games with a calm head - experience through the middle would push us closer to top 4

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what youth does llorente help to develop? i really don't understand this link, poch wants a high energy, high pressing team and he's going to sign one of the most immobile strikers around? i find that hard to believe.

Blake Griffin said:

what youth does llorente help to develop? i really don't understand this link, poch wants a high energy, high pressing team and he's going to sign one of the most immobile strikers around? i find that hard to believe.

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Come end of a match though and your chasing the win you want a big man up top who can hold up play, win a header, use his body to bully through. The guys a unit. Also if leading you want that height in our box when the other team is playing direct - he'd be second choice anyway I'd assume.

I'm sure Kane can learn a bit of hold up player from Llorente. We clearly need a mobile and quick option too which fits the youngster purchase.

I'd like Kane, Llorente(other wise head who is mobile as you mentioned would be better but who?) and a pacy direct option as our 3 for next season. I'd keep Soldado if we can't find a decent replacement for him.

SamR said:

I think the simple answer is we need both. The programme 'suits' - one experienced been there done it won it guy, one top of the class new kid who learns from experienced guy and has that edge to make a difference now - dream team.

We need this through the middle of the Pitch.
Gk - tick
Cb - tick
CM - need 1x experienced
CF - need 1x experienced 1xprospect

WF - 1×prospect

I'm all for Suarez and Llorente for experience to help the youth develop and to come into big games with a calm head - experience through the middle would push us closer to top 4

Click to expand...

See I think we're all in agreement. The issue is, when we can't get that top experienced player (subjective) should we look to our academy and coach them into the first team or buy average players to further block their path, who will never get any better.

Out of curiosity how many of the following 16 players would people prefer to buy before looking to our youth, I just chose a random selection of CM/DMs. Say all of them were quoted for 15m and 40k wages. It's either pay that or we are 'stuck' with what we have. Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Sissoko, Jedinak, Livermore, Huddlestone, Fer, McArthur, Delph, Ki, Sanchez, Larsson, N'Zonzi, Gardner, Adam.

I think it is an interesting question and don't mean to take 'shots' at anyone

Coach what we have, unless we can sign someone considerably better.

McCarthy is ho-hum and in no way an upgrade on what we have already. I'd have hoped that we'd learned our lessons from last summer.

Samson said:

If you were Lloris or Vertonghen, would you be pleased the club had saved £20 million on a 7/10 player in a needed position because there's a 19 year old 5/10 who has the potential to be a 9/10, but may well end up a 7/10 anyway?

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Firstly yes if it means then putting money aside to srenghten an even more urgent position i.e. winger and striker.

Secondly, the top players in our academy are not 5/10 they could arguably be 7/10s at the moment but they have been given no chance to prove it so I will say they are 6s. I would don't think the top players would mind, at the end of the day they see them in training and know their quality, they probably look over at other clubs and from what I know of other professional sportsman who play for lower teams they will sometimes not think that highly of them. I think the experienced players we have would be happy to play our best talent. Look at Chadli for example when Oduwa was going to make his debut on Sky for Luton he tweeted 'Good luck Nathan show them all what you can do'. I bet Oduwa has obviously impressed him in training and he is supporting him. Now come this season if we had the option of buying Victor Moses for 15m or playing Oduwa I would bet that Chadli would happily see Oduwa get his chance.

Different sport but same theory when I captained my clubs 2nd XL in cricket and we needed players people used to try and push ringers on me who were apparently 'top' players. I however coached the colts and would fill any squads with the best 15/16 year olds we had. I no longer captain but at least 2 of them now play for teh 1st team while a couple more are mainstays in the 2nd team. The chances of a player coming in and socring a ton each match and taking 5 wickets was slim and more than likely my youngsters wouldn't perform any worse and the club may actually gain more in the future which we now have done.

The other reasoning behind my decision was that ringers/journeyman usually join clubs as they want to play at a high level. They block the path of a young player, an when they don't perform and the club get into trouble they are 100% the first people to leave the club looking for the standard they think they're entitled to play. They have no real connection and do not want to fight it out as they have done this before. Which means when they leave you now have gaps to fill with either more journeyman or younger plays as the the previous young generation have left as they feel they have been treated unfairly. This has all happened at my club and is analogous with football and the professional game.

Top players will join us as they see us as a stepping stone and eventually will want to leave for CL football. That's fine the difference is we need to buy the players that actually have the ability to do that. Chiriches came here openly admitting to using us to get to Chelsea but look what's happened and all he has done is block the path of another young player. Capoue is the same he was hailed and highly rated, for each one of these players they are given a minimum of a year maybe 2 by the fan base before they are fully judged before we realise they are not good enough and have done no more than a young player could have done. The young player however, acctually has desire and wants and opportuntiy to prove themselves, tehy also havve more of a conneciton with the club and you would assume they won't jump ship at the first sight of a struggle or success. However, every youngster, EVERY YOUNGSTER, that has come through with us and pulled us through last season has received criticism from the fans in their first few months or season.

Mason who outplayed Paulinho and Capoue in his FIRST season with us after being knackered, is now defensively poor not good enough for where we want to be, he was even on at least one persons to sell list for this transfer window

Rose he played poorly for half a season on his return but had absolutely vile things written about him and assumptions that he would not handle the competition of Davies, but worked and stepped up his game to become one of the best LBs in the league

Townsend started off really well for us before the fans got on his back for trying to make things happen for the club he supports

Bentaleb stepped in seamlessly as a 19 year old, played better or as good as our internationals and your standard PL midfielder in his first half a season straight from the academy and was called 'teachers pet' and moaned about 'what does he do?' etc. Now he is one of the first names on the teamsheet and of course

Kane who will never make the PL. L1 player Championship if he is lucky. Slow, cumbersome etc etc.

Other than Townsend who had a hard season the rest all contributed massively to us finishing the 2nd highest we've ever finished. It was unanimous when they were all introduced we all felt a positive vibe round the club, they were playing for the badge with passion let alone the ability they showed, yet they were all judged so much harshly and instantly than any of our signings. Some of the signings like Soldado people are still willing to give time to, which is fine, some people still thought Capoue would come good, some still thought there was a player in Paulinho but they all played so much worse than those above and got at least a years worth of leeway before they were judged. Why can't we do the same to our own.

As the same people are saying now, we may see much more of a benefit if we show them patience - constant signings do not always help. I can already see with the MV v JM split that if JM wasn't bought or even if he was and MV was played, if MV had a bad game he would be gotten onto a lot sooner than if JM had some bad games.

The last thing we need is another manager.

IGSpur said:

See I think we're all in agreement. The issue is, when we can't get that top experienced player (subjective) should we look to our academy and coach them into the first team or buy average players to further block their path, who will never get any better.

Out of curiosity how many of the following 16 players would people prefer to buy before looking to our youth, I just chose a random selection of CM/DMs. Say all of them were quoted for 15m and 40k wages. It's either pay that or we are 'stuck' with what we have. Besic, Barry, McCarthy, Sissoko, Jedinak, Livermore, Huddlestone, Fer, McArthur, Delph, Ki, Sanchez, Larsson, N'Zonzi, Gardner, Adam.

I think it is an interesting question and don't mean to take 'shots' at anyone

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Smart reply. I'd probably take just McCarthy. He is still youngish remember and would improve our squad. Jedinak is decent but would he suit our play?

On the face of it I actually think Suarez would be a decent signing - wouldn't play every game but that bit of bite when we need it would do us wonders. Bentaleb, Mason and Alli are a decent 3 if we have to stick.

If no first team improving players available stick and promote.

barry said:

Milos is not ready, he might be one day but not now. It wasn't like he was tearing up trees at boro.
Your one game review on McCarthy and mason is ludicrous. I can show you games where an inferior player out performs a more notably player. Does that make them better. Ludicrous.
Our academy is good but if the coaches feel a player from outside could add something to the team on a more consistent basis than an untried academy player. I'll go with them. We take punts on cheap players. If the club are willing to spend big on McCarthy they obviously feel he can add a lot to the first team. He was the best of his generation in Scotland and been playing regular premiership football since he was a teenager.
Not every player, not matter what potential you belive they have, can be coached into a world beater.
I like mason, but he's had his fair share of poor games and mistakes this season. I don't know if McCartney is better but someone obviously does.
Many prem teams have decent youngster. How many actually make the step up.

Click to expand...

barry said:

I'm not saying Mccarthy is the answer. The club are. I haven't watched nearly enough of him to form am opinion,but people who have seen him seem suitably impressed.
Milos could be gods gift to football. I don't know. Let him do what pritchard did then bring his name into the debate.
The problem is I think some of you put too much faith in the youth setup. More often I'm seeing this dude's shit let's replace him with someone from the academy. This position is a problem, but this academy graduate tore up that position for the u21 let's try him.
It's just not feasible
Due to social media and youtube everyone seems to think they know as much as our couches in regard to our players.
We have a coach who takes risks on youth, if he thinks they're ready he'll play them.

Click to expand...

First and foremost I assume you didn't either watch him at boro or don't know what happened at boro, for you to say it's not like he was tearing up trees. Secondly, apparently performances in the Championship are now important and he needs to do a Pritch but I bet none of you would be content with Grant Hall being 4th CB for us next season despite him playing in the Championship all last season. Yet he is ranked lower than Veljkovic in our list of prospects and most likely CCV, so what is important Championship peformances or ability?

Surely what he has done at International level should bring his name into the debate and his few performances in the Championship not to mention last years preseason.

And that is exactly how an academy should work especially a World Class one and it is exactly how it happened last year for us with the players we already went out and bought, then the shit ones were replaced by the academy ones, what people want is for us to stop wasting our money again and to trust them in the first place, before we are stuck with the sell before we buy policy

Regarding your last comment I'm sure you would like to pass judgement on our first team players as much as Poch so why can't anyone who watches the youth. They aren't just watching youtube highlights, some go to the games and stream them. Poch doesn't even go to all the games, so surely they should be able to pass as much judgement as we already do on the first team