Buy "ordinary" Experience or Coach what we have debate

[bigfrooj]

I think Veljkovic has played himself into Pochettino's plans after that WC performance. Which position is debatable.

 

[bryanabutler]

i don't see why we couldn't have gone into the season with:

stones Put it right for you GB
dier
fazio
veljkovic
ccv

or if you're really insistent on alderweireld then replace fazio with him.

 

[Doomchicken]

I think Veljkovic has played himself into Pochettino's plans after that WC performance. Which position is debatable.

He was playing at CB in the WC, but Poch has bought two new players in that position.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

i don't see why we couldn't have gone into the season with:

vertonghen
dier
fazio
veljkovic
ccv

or if you're really insistent on alderweireld then replace fazio with him.

Agree.

 

[Barry Mead]

I don't think it's ever that simple, first what type of coach and how pragmatic/dogmatic. No point coaching a square peg for a round hole. Even allowing that when you look at a coach and say he got x out of that player you have to look at others and ask why he couldn't get the same out of them. I have always thought balance in a team is the best option, age, experience, achievement along with youth, energy and desire to achieve.
Is a coach a good coach because he gets a certain amount out of young players but can't get enough out of more proven players? Is a coach good only if he gets players that fit his style and shape of choice or is someone a better coach because he can take a squad of players look at their strengths and weaknesses and develop a shape and style that maximises their strengths whilst minimising their weaknesses. Have we really had lots of great young players that simply never got a chance or do we have a few all of a sudden coming through that are better suited to what the current coach wants.
There are too many variables for me, reality is no squad is necessarily strong in all areas and you have to strengthen with players from other teams, when you need to strengthen it really comes down to options available and how well they'll fit into the team

 

[Nebby]

We need both; experienced professionals training, playing and leading alongside those that will hopefully develop given time and the right coaching. Never underestimate the value of experience, especially when a younger player might be struggling with form.

 

[IGSpur]

We need both; experienced professionals training, playing and leading alongside those that will hopefully develop given time and the right coaching. Never underestimate the value of experience, especially when a younger player might be struggling with form.

But it needs to be good experience, not any old joker. We can't buy Titus Bramble who has 11 years of top flight experience, and point to that as being a reason why he is firstly a better player but also one that can seemingly help and inspire the young players. He is as much of a liability as anyone and no youngster would learn off him. PL experience is meaningless if the player is no good but it seems that that is all that matters above and beyond anything especially talent.

The sad thing is the majority of fans would rather buy Bramble for 3m as a 4th choice CB than give Carter-Vickers/Veljkovic a chance.

It's a valid argument on Livermore & Caulker. I didn't say Townsed was a failure, just that he didn't work out and I stand by that, as I think he is a good player but don't think he fits the system and also I think him being a Spurs fan is holding him back as he is trying too hard to make a difference (not saying this happens to all Spurs fans playing for us, just how I see it effecting Andros).

I didn't mean to imply you were calling him a failure. You said that not all youth products work out and I was just saying that tbf I would say all 3 of the players while 'not working out' still worked out a lot better than our failed signings. Towsnend while he hasn't found his old form is sitll a good player for England and will go for good money.

There are 50-60 games to be played with a CM stable of Bentaleb, Mason, Dembele, Alli and Carroll. We need an experienced, first xi quality DM to pair with Bentaleb. I think Carroll will eventually be sold this window, which leaves us with 4 CM's. There is room for both that first XI quality DM and Veljkovic, especially considering Velkovic can play CB and there will, hopefully, be occasions where Poch realizes a 433 would be a better formation to use. So what I think the crux of this argument is, if we dont sell Carroll would you rather sign McCarthy for £20m or play Veljkovic. At £20m, I'd rather play Veljkovic because I dont think McCarthy is worth that much. At £20m, I think we can find someone of better quality somewhere around Europe. Hell, we can porbably find a better player than him for less than £20m around Europe! The main draw for McCarthy is that he is experienced in the Premier League. That's where scouting comes in. If we find a better player who we think can adapt very well to the Prem, we should bring him in immediately so he can bed into the team and get used to the football in training.

IMO, we need a nice balance of experienced quality and young quality in the side.

Are you trying to say that we need to buy a CM/DM and either buy McCarthy or play Veljkovic. As it stands we only need to buy one CM/DM imo providing it is the correct player

I remember when Defendi was the best player at u20's and limbersky looked like a world beater. I am certain veljkovic and CCV are a different class but if they are good enough they'll beat out the likes of Fazio, Wimmer, Toby et al. Not worried.

Not always the case and also misses the point. We may have a 6/7 out of 10 player that puts in decent performances and is not worth dropping s he doesn't make any glaring mistakes, however we have in our academy a player who may currently be a 6 but has the potential to be a 9 or 10. The fact is the first player will never play bad enough to warrant being dropped and so we waste a potentially considerably better player. One we would aspire to buy in the future but always claim they are out of our reach as we aren't a top 4 club.

Massive difference between U20 teams and PL teams. Just saying.

I think people know this, but people don't suddenly lose the ability to pass, head, shoot or control the ball as they go up a level. u20 World Cup is FIFA's 2nd most prestigious tournament. I see no more risk buying one of the best players from there than a top player from the Romanian League

 

[THFCSPURS19]

The sad thing is the majority of fans would rather buy Bramble for 3m as a 4th choice CB than give Carter-Vickers/Veljkovic a chance.

That's just absolute nonsense.

 

[mpickard2087]

That's just absolute nonsense.

We've had people try and argue for signing the likes of Jonjo Shelvey this summer, I wouldn't be so sure.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

We've had people try and argue for signing the likes of Jonjo Shelvey this summer, I wouldn't be so sure.

How many? 2? 3? Not 'the majority'.

 

[mpickard2087]

How many? 2? 3? Not 'the majority'.

Far more than that, I was seriously worried for the sanity of some. And there are countless other examples across many threads, over many years.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Far more than that, I was seriously worried for the sanity of some. And there are countless other examples across many threads, over many years.

I just looked in the Shelvey thread and about 5 or 6 were mildly for the transfer. Many more were against it.

 

[yankspurs]

Are you trying to say that we need to buy a CM/DM and either buy McCarthy or play Veljkovic. As it stands we only need to buy one CM/DM imo providing it is the correct player

No. I am saying we need to buy a first team quality DM, provided it is the right player. But if it comes down to either McCarthy at £20m for that spot, I'm staying away from it and giving Veljkovic more games than planned.

I also said I expect Carroll to be sold and if Poch would play a 433 in a few games like he should, that would open up another need for a CM. However I highly doubt Poch will ever use a legitimate 433. So it is a moot point. We need 1 DM leaving us with that DM, Bentaleb, Mason, Alli, Dembele and Veljkovic at CM if Carroll is sold like I expect him to be.

 

[mpickard2087]

I just looked in the Shelvey thread and about 5 or 6 were mildly for the transfer. Many more were against it.

It was one example. This type of mentality definitely exists, where signings always need to be made. It's changing a bit with the likes of Kane (who got his fair share of abuse) and co. coming through, but still it's there.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

It was one example. This type of mentality definitely exists, where signings always need to be made. It's changing a bit with the likes of Kane (who got his fair share of abuse) and co. coming through, but still it's there.

Yes, but nobody would want Bramble FFS. It was a silly example to use.

 

[IGSpur]

It was an extreme example to prove the point that it seems people would generally be happier and feel comfortable with a player regardless of ability to fulfill a squad role over a talented player just because one has experience in the PL.

TBH while you believe it is a stupid example I bet deep down some would still go for it.

It was one example. This type of mentality definitely exists, where signings always need to be made. It's changing a bit with the likes of Kane (who got his fair share of abuse) and co. coming through, but still it's there.

I've seen people want us to sign all kinds. Examples before our players broke through, I had seen people at different points want us to buy Hughes, Ward-Prowse and Hoilett when we had we Ventured, Carroll and Townsend ready and now each player has shown they are at the very least as good as the ones previously wanted.

 

[Blake Griffin]

bramble's a bit of an extreme example but i agree that most fans would prefer an average player that they know will do an average job rather than a youngster that they've had no exposure to - despite recent history telling us that not only will they not let us down but a lot of the time they outperform these so called more experienced players anyway.

 

[Samson]

If you were Lloris or Vertonghen, would you be pleased the club had saved £20 million on a 7/10 player in a needed position because there's a 19 year old 5/10 who has the potential to be a 9/10, but may well end up a 7/10 anyway?

 

[scat1620]

I have seen nothing of Veljkovic play, but if it's a choice between playing the tea lady or paying £20m for McCarthy then the tea lady is making my team sheet.

 

[barry]

Milos is not ready, he might be one day but not now. It wasn't like he was tearing up trees at boro.
Your one game review on McCarthy and mason is ludicrous. I can show you games where an inferior player out peforms a more notably player. Does that make them better. Ludicrous.
Our academy is good but if the coaches feel a player from outside could add something to the team on a more consistent basis than an untried academy player. I'll go with them. We take punts on cheap players. If the club are willing to spend big on McCarthy they obviously feel he can add a lot to the first team. He was the best of his generation in Scotland and been playing regular premiership football since he was a teenager.
Not every player, not matter what potential you belive they have, can be coached into a world beater.
I like mason, but he's had his fair share of poor games and mistakes this season. I don't know if McCartney is better but someone obviously does.
Many prem teams have decent youngster. How many actually make the step up.