WINDOW WRAP - SUMMER TRANSFER WINDOW 2015 — from OS

spurs9 · Sep 10, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
I'm still really annoyed and baffled that Veljkovic wasn't the immediate choice if Pochettino wanted a more defensive player to play the insurance man.

He's a slicker operator than Dier in most ways as a CM. Reads the game well, has a great brain and is a much better passer of the ball than Dier. He's also more dynamic and mobile.

I just think it's really tactically lazy and a little bit cowardly to stick Dier there. We heard all this glowing stuff from Schneiderlin about how Pochettino taught him how the press etc. In Bentaleb, Mason and Veljkovic we have the raw materials, they just need to be taught - and that teaching needs to be harmonised with those around them being taught better too.

For all we know, they might all be in the process of being taught this in training but Dier might be learning the quickest or the others might just not be taking it on board yet. People learn at different speeds and different ways and some people just won't have the ability to learn certain things to a certain standard, so you can't just say "teach player x how to do it and job done".

Bus-Conductor · Sep 10, 2015

spurs9 said:
For all we know, they might all be in the process of being taught this in training but Dier might be learning the quickest or the others might just not be taking it on board yet. People learn at different speeds and different ways and some people just won't have the ability to learn certain things to a certain standard, so you can't just say "teach player x how to do it and job done".

I hope it is, but buying players (especially the likes of McCarthy and Wanyama) just strikes me as seeking a "bought" solution rather than a coached one.

I honestly don't think Dier has been that great or shown signs of learning the role (in our CM2) better than others have or can play it.

spurs9 · Sep 10, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
I hope it is, but buying players (especially the likes of McCarthy and Wanyama) just strikes me as seeking a "bought" solution rather than a coached one.

I honestly don't think Dier has been that great or shown signs of learning the role (in our CM2) better than others have or can play it.

I think Dier has shown better positioning, tracking of runners coupled with tenacity and aggression than Bentaleb or Mason have. I agree with you on McCarthy & Wanyama, but I think the idea was to bring someone in that can take the pressure off them whilst they learn, as I think Poch wants all of his CMs to have these defensive qualities eventually as well as their attacking qualities. I also think Poch will have Dier (or another more defensive orientated player) as an option for games when we will see less of the ball and playing a higher quality team, but he can't just save him for those games from the outset, he needs him to learn the role and get get used to playing it first.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 11, 2015

spurs9 said:
I think Dier has shown better positioning, tracking of runners coupled with tenacity and aggression than Bentaleb or Mason have. I agree with you on McCarthy & Wanyama, but I think the idea was to bring someone in that can take the pressure off them whilst they learn, as I think Poch wants all of his CMs to have these defensive qualities eventually as well as their attacking qualities. I also think Poch will have Dier (or another more defensive orientated player) as an option for games when we will see less of the ball and playing a higher quality team, but he can't just save him for those games from the outset, he needs him to learn the role and get get used to playing it first.

I'm not convinced of that (bold). I really don't think a 21yo CB playing out of position is taking much pressure off Mason and Bentaleb. And I don't think he's got more tenacity either - he's just a bit more robust in the tackle - and he's certainly less dynamic.

spurs9 · Sep 11, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
I'm not convinced of that (bold). I really don't think a 21yo CB playing out of position is taking much pressure off Mason and Bentaleb. And I don't think he's got more tenacity either - he's just a bit more robust in the tackle - and he's certainly less dynamic.

Really? For me, he has added a much needed "fire" to our midfield. I'm also finding it a bit strange you are putting his dynamism down, yet earlier refer to Capoue as exactly what we are looking for?

Bus-Conductor · Sep 11, 2015

spurs9 said:
Really? For me, he has added a much needed "fire" to our midfield. I'm also finding it a bit strange you are putting his dynamism down, yet earlier refer to Capoue as exactly what we are looking for?

I said I don't think he's as dynamic as Mason and Bentaleb. And for the record what I actually said about Capoue was:

Bus-Conductor said:
Capoue, is close (of course not perfect but pretty close) to the type of midfielder we spent all summer pursuing. Maybe defensively not quite as tenacious and diligent as Schniederlin without the ball but a good reader, much more mobile than players like Hudd, and his distribution for a DM type was excellent (at least as good as Schniederlin's) and the guy would get through shitloads of ball and use it well and not give it away 25% of the time like Hudd used to, despite attempting and completing a high degree of longer passes.

Real_madyidd · Sep 11, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
I'm not convinced of that (bold). I really don't think a 21yo CB playing out of position is taking much pressure off Mason and Bentaleb. And I don't think he's got more tenacity either - he's just a bit more robust in the tackle - and he's certainly less dynamic.

I think his positioning and composure are way beyond what Bentalab and Mason offer.
so far so good I reckon.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 11, 2015

Real_madyidd said:
I think his positioning and composure are way beyond what Bentalab and Mason offer.
so far so good I reckon.

So we weigh one decent performance against a tactically poor Everton at home, against 25 odd games each from Bentaleb and Mason that saw us finish fifth and declare his positioning and composure way beyond what Mason and Bentaleb offer ?

Being less mobile isn't the same as having good positional awareness.That's the sort of woolly rubbish people used to come out with about Huddlestone. he didn't look so positionally aware when Stoke outplayed us for 45 mints at home.

Donki · Sep 11, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
So we weigh one decent performance against a tactically poor Everton at home, against 25 odd games each from Bentaleb and Mason that saw us finish fifth and declare his positioning and composure way beyond what Mason and Bentaleb offer ?

Being less mobile isn't the same as having good positional awareness.That's the sort of woolly rubbish people used to come out with about Huddlestone. he didn't look so positionally aware when Stoke outplayed us for 45 mints at home.

While I am not willing to come out here and say that Dier has shown more ability at DM than Mason or Nabel I will say I think at his age with clearly real footballing ability he can and should develop into this position. You said that he is playing out of his usual position, which is true but surely at 21 he could make DM his "natural position", he certainly wouldnt be the first player to move from CB to DM.

Also do you think we should have kept Capoue and gave him a chance?

whitesocks · Sep 11, 2015

In MP's world, you cannot have enough defenders on the pitch,
but I imagine Dier will be dropped from his DM role when the pressure mounts for a few goals and a few wins.

I think he is a very versatile player and perhaps he is a little wasted at CB at his age.
But for a player who is not established in the premiership, MP is not doing him any favours by continually changing his position. I can't see this ending well.

andyp8080 · Sep 11, 2015

Trix said:
Plenty of world class players started out in a different position to the one they end up excelling in. I'm not sure whether this will be the case with Dier but off the top of my head.....

Lahm FB to CM
Ramos RB to CB
Bale LB to RWF
Mascherano CM to CB to CM to CB etc etc
Schweinsteiger RM to CM
Beckenbauer CM to Sweeper
Henry LW to CF
Kompany CM to CB
Ivanovic CB to RB

Everyone of those excelled once they had changed position.

you forgot Paul Stewart ;-)

dudu · Sep 11, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
So we weigh one decent performance against a tactically poor Everton at home, against 25 odd games each from Bentaleb and Mason that saw us finish fifth and declare his positioning and composure way beyond what Mason and Bentaleb offer ?

Being less mobile isn't the same as having good positional awareness.That's the sort of woolly rubbish people used to come out with about Huddlestone. he didn't look so positionally aware when Stoke outplayed us for 45 mints at home.

Neither Did Mason or Bentaleb in numerous games last year - and that is their natural position.

In the first half vs stoke i thought our whole teams positioning was pretty sound as i have done in a few periods of play in the few games we have played.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 11, 2015

Donki said:
While I am not willing to come out here and say that Dier has shown more ability at DM than Mason or Nabel I will say I think at his age with clearly real footballing ability he can and should develop into this position. You said that he is playing out of his usual position, which is true but surely at 21 he could make DM his "natural position", he certainly wouldnt be the first player to move from CB to DM.

Also do you think we should have kept Capoue and gave him a chance?

My personal opinion is that Dier could become a great CB, but I don't think he has the attributes to be a great CM, at the very best he'll do a pretty one dimensional DM job on a good day. He doesn't want the ball under pressure, he's not going to drop a shoulder and evade pressure on the ball in condensed areas. He's robust, but not very dynamic and certainly not dynamic enough for a CM in a CM2 most weeks in a a system that is trying to be high tempo, quick transition. He can't press tight and quick because he's way too easy to turn that way, as we have already seen a few times, and that is also vital to how Pochetino wants to play.

I like Dier, I was concerned about signing Alderweireld (who I also like) because I wanted Dier to develop as our CB. And I didn't want Wanyama for instance , for exactly the same kind of reasons as I don't want to see Dier play there, and he's more mobile and dynamic than Dier. But both are limited and CM's in our CM2 system must be more multi faceted, very dynamic and double pivoting.

If we take out the alleged dressing room or off pitch problems that seem to have blighted Capoue's relationship with Pochettino, and are just talking about Capoue the player, then I would have very much liked us to have kept Capoue and believe he has some outstanding qualities that if used wisely with others around the CM's pulling their weight and working cohesively too, could have been a real asset. I'd love to have seen a CM three of Bentaleb and Mason either side of Capoue.

But I also like Bentaleb and Mason very much, and would very much like them to be given time to develop. And think they are better, or have the potential to be better than many of the CM's we were linked with in the summer.

I also find Pochettino's shunning of Veljkovic for a role as a more defensive CM a bit baffling.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 11, 2015

dudu said:
Neither Did Mason or Bentaleb in numerous games last year - and that is their natural position.

In the first half vs stoke i thought our whole teams positioning was pretty sound as i have done in a few periods of play in the few games we have played.

Of course, we know these two aren't perfect and have developing and learning to do, but surely it's an easier coaching job to teach these two a bit of positional discipline (especially if over the summer he's managed to do it in conjunction with the wider group and the group dynamics) than it is to make Dier dynamic, able to press tight, pass and move like Mason and Bentaleb etc.

danielneeds · Sep 11, 2015

Playing two inexperienced double pivot midfielders in conjunction with asking our fullbacks to provide our width left us far too open and exposed defensively. Dier is obviously a temporary solution, but I'm all for having one more defensively minded player in the midfield if we're going to ask the fullbacks to bomb forward so much. Effectively when we have the ball now its a:

Lloris
Alderweireld Dier Vertonghen

Walker Bentaleb Rose

Son Mason Chadli

Kane

THFCSPURS19 · Sep 11, 2015

"Personally I don't think Tottenham will ever come back," Pulis said. "I don't think that will happen.

"There are other clubs out there who if they're interested, they're interested, but I'm sure Saido will deal with it in a different day to how he did this time.

"I just think most probably the two clubs have tried to do a deal and it's not worked and not happened.

"I don't see Daniel (Levy, Tottenham chairman) coming back to try to sign Saido again. I might be wrong.

"It is not anything. It's just my feeling. I just don't see Daniel coming back."

Mustard · Sep 11, 2015

dudu · Sep 12, 2015

Bus-Conductor said:
Of course, we know these two aren't perfect and have developing and learning to do, but surely it's an easier coaching job to teach these two a bit of positional discipline (especially if over the summer he's managed to do it in conjunction with the wider group and the group dynamics) than it is to make Dier dynamic, able to press tight, pass and move like Mason and Bentaleb etc.

Based on tiny amount of games from last season you have pointed out where we played the way you feel is worthy perhaps that isnt the case - you surely cant think so.

Bus-Conductor · Sep 12, 2015

dudu said:
Based on tiny amount of games from last season you have pointed out where we played the way you feel is worthy perhaps that isnt the case - you surely cant think so.

I do, and don't call me Shirley.

Mullers · Sep 12, 2015

am_yisrael_chai said:
Seriously what did you expect them to say ?

Yes DL learnt a painful lesson from 2014 which is that Poch won't play any second rate dross he buys him, well done.

To suggest we only have "one love" though is plainly crazy for a club of Spurs' ambitions (their words not mine).

This.
I can't believe the high amount of ratings the OS got for what is basically propaganda. When Poch joined he said he had unbelievable squad, he's just playing the game. To me Poch is clearly saying we added last season in many instances for the sake of it.
We have the clubs most expensive player collecting 100,000 plus weekly for doing nothing, we sold our a DM we just bought last season and didn't replace him and we have 5 CBs which is one too many.

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