WINDOW WRAP - SUMMER TRANSFER WINDOW 2015 — from OS

[Bus-Conductor]

If I didnt know any better and just based it off those touches and heat maps, I'd say Dier was playing on the right side of a narrow diamond. Probably not where you'd want your DM's touches to come from.

I think it reflects Dier's uncomfortableness with receiving the ball in the hubbub and confined spaces of more central areas.

 

[Mr Pink]

I don't think he's changed the shape so much, I think he's altered it's functionality. And IMO, not for the better. IMO it would be better to teach Mason and Bentaleb (and all those round them) better, how to work different situations, rather than the unimaginative cop out of just putting a less mobile, less progressive centre back as insurance there instead. It strikes me as being the tactical equivalent of taking a sledge hammer to crack a nut.

I also think it's a bit worrying that Dier is saying Pochettino hasn't done much talking at all about his new role. As I said before your post, I can understand not over complicating the role, but not talking much at all about it all, seriously ?

Agree with you on this BC, but do you not think for some games selecting Dier could be a good selection - particularly games we're likely to see less of the ball?

I don't have a problem with it if Pochettino can be flexible and use good judgement in terms of when to use him....

 

[homer hotspur]

Moving on from this very technical DM analysis, surely the key issue is whether we have enough goals in the side following the failure to land a proper striker back up. We have to hope that Son and Njie will prove to be great signings because, if not, I think we will struggle to beat most teams. It is concerning that Njie still seems to be injured. Lets hope this doesn't turn into a typical Spurs saga involving a mystery injury that drags on for weeks. At least Harry has scored a couple of good goals for England so hopefully that will set him off for us. It will be interesting to see who we play up front in the League Cup and Europa matches.
If things go as badly as they might, then I think we will be in for Charlie AustIn in January but we won't be in a particularly strong position to get him at a knock down price so it will probably not happen. We still look set up as an away side, so the Sunderland game has to be a ' Must win' or the media will heap the pressure on big time.
I really wouldn't like to predict the way things are going to go.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Agree with you on this BC, but do you not think for some games selecting Dier could be a good selection - particularly games we're likely to see less of the ball?

I don't have a problem with it if Pochettino can be flexible and use good judgement in terms of when to use him....

I'm still really annoyed and baffled that Veljkovic wasn't the immediate choice if Pochettino wanted a more defensive player to play the insurance man.

He's a slicker operator than Dier in most ways as a CM. Reads the game well, has a great brain and is a much better passer of the ball than Dier. He's also more dynamic and mobile.

I just think it's really tactically lazy and a little bit cowardly to stick Dier there. We heard all this glowing stuff from Schneiderlin about how Pochettino taught him how the press etc. In Bentaleb, Mason and Veljkovic we have the raw materials, they just need to be taught - and that teaching needs to be harmonised with those around them being taught better too.

 

[longtimespur]

Moving on from this very technical DM analysis, surely the key issue is whether we have enough goals in the side following the failure to land a proper striker back up. We have to hope that Son and Njie will prove to be great signings because, if not, I think we will struggle to beat most teams. It is concerning that Njie still seems to be injured. Lets hope this doesn't turn into a typical Spurs saga involving a mystery injury that drags on for weeks. At least Harry has scored a couple of good goals for England so hopefully that will set him off for us. It will be interesting to see who we play up front in the League Cup and Europa matches.
If things go as badly as they might, then I think we will be in for Charlie AustIn in January but we won't be in a particularly strong position to get him at a knock down price so it will probably not happen. We still look set up as an away side, so the Sunderland game has to be a ' Must win' or the media will heap the pressure on big time.
I really wouldn't like to predict the way things are going to go.

There's a little piece here from Nacer Chadli bemoaning our finishing this season.
http://www.footballfancast.com/foot...blast-team-for-lack-of-composure-this-season?

Seems we are creating just not scoring.

 

[CowInAComa]

I'm still really annoyed and baffled that Veljkovic wasn't the immediate choice if Pochettino wanted a more defensive player to play the insurance man.

He's a slicker operator than Dier in most ways as a CM. Reads the game well, has a great brain and is a much better passer of the ball than Dier. He's also more dynamic and mobile.

I just think it's really tactically lazy and a little bit cowardly to stick Dier there. We heard all this glowing stuff from Schneiderlin about how Pochettino taught him how the press etc. In Bentaleb, Mason and Veljkovic we have the raw materials, they just need to be taught - and that teaching needs to be harmonised with those around them being taught better too.

Sorry, but this need amongst the fanbase to elevate every promising academy player to sure thing status better-than-established first teamers verges on the ridiculous.

We have done this to and then discarded as old hat to Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll to various degrees once they've stopped being shiny and new. And now we are going to do it to Pritchard and Veljkovic.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sorry, but this need amongst the fanbase to elevate every promising academy player to sure thing status better-than-established first teamers verges on the ridiculous.

We have done this to and then discarded as old hat to Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll to various degrees once they've stopped being shiny and new. And now we are going to do it to Pritchard and Veljkovic.

Think pritchard will make a good squad addition. Veljkovic not sure about. Carroll i'm suprised wasn't sold and bentaleb and mason have established themselves.

 

[CowInAComa]

Think pritchard will make a good squad addition. Veljkovic not sure about. Carroll i'm suprised wasn't sold and bentaleb and mason have established themselves.

Agree on all points. Think we are setting Pritchard and Veljkovic up for a fall to place too much immediate expectation on them.

We already have about the youngest first team about. No need to rush them in.

 

[Lilbaz]

Agree on all points. Think we are setting Pritchard and Veljkovic up for a fall to place too much immediate expectation on them.

We already have about the youngest first team about. No need to rush them in.

They are young players and will make mistakes. We as fans need to have patience.
Would like pritchard to start next thursday. Onomah on the bench and maybe even milos. We should be strong enough to win and let our first team have a rest.

 

[JimmyG2]

Sorry, but this need amongst the fanbase to elevate every promising academy player to sure thing status better-than-established first teamers verges on the ridiculous.

We have done this to and then discarded as old hat to Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll to various degrees once they've stopped being shiny and new. And now we are going to do it to Pritchard and Veljkovic.

I wouldn't call it a need exactly.
Have Bentaleb and Mason been discarded then?
Last season our own youngsters stepped up:Kane;Rose, Bentaleb and Mason
when their supposed elders and betters flopped.
I find it very satisfying to see this
and hope that it can be extended to others: Pritchard, Carrol etc.
The old pattern over several decades of buying foreign players
new to the Premiership and the club just hasn't worked.
Let's give youth and the Academy a run
instead of constantly churning players (and managers)
Much more rewarding and involving for the fans.
The old constant turnover of you-tube unknowns
is what is ridiculous.

 

[Lilbaz]

I wouldn't call it a need exactly.
Have Bentaleb and Mason been discarded then?
Last season our own youngsters stepped up:Kane;Rose, Bentaleb and Mason
when their supposed elders and betters flopped.
I find it very satisfying to see this
and hope that it can be extended to others: Pritchard, Carrol etc.
The old pattern over several decades of buying foreign players
new to the Premiership and the club just hasn't worked.
Let's give youth and the Academy a run
instead of constantly churning players (and managers)
Much more rewarding and involving for the fans.
The old constant turnover of you-tube unknowns
is what is ridiculous.

Also the more youth that come through means we will be able to attract better youth in future.

 

[CowInAComa]

I wouldn't call it a need exactly.
Have Bentaleb and Mason been discarded then?
Last season our own youngsters stepped up:Kane;Rose, Bentaleb and Mason
when their supposed elders and betters flopped.
I find it very satisfying to see this
and hope that it can be extended to others: Pritchard, Carrol etc.
The old pattern over several decades of buying foreign players
new to the Premiership and the club just hasn't worked.
Let's give youth and the Academy a run
instead of constantly churning players (and managers)
Much more rewarding and involving for the fans.
The old constant turnover of you-tube unknowns
is what is ridiculous.

I was actually referring to the ascertation that velojkovic should be promoted over dier. And numerous folk disappointed that mason is above Pritchard in the managers plans. Yesterday's papers..

No one likes seeing young and academy players come through more than me. I haven't been as keen on a squad for many a season.

 

[Lilbaz]

I was actually referring to the ascertation that velojkovic should be promoted over dier. And numerous folk disappointed that mason is above Pritchard in the managers plans. Yesterday's papers..

No one likes seeing young and academy players come through more than me. I haven't been as keen on a squad for many a season.

Agree it's the managers choice. People will always have their own opinion though.
Just hope everyone gets a chance to show what they can do.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sorry, but this need amongst the fanbase to elevate every promising academy player to sure thing status better-than-established first teamers verges on the ridiculous.

As is the need by others (like you) to misrepresent what people say. Where has anybody elevated any of our promising academy players to "sure thing" status ?

We have done this to and then discarded as old hat to Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll to various degrees once they've stopped being shiny and new. And now we are going to do it to Pritchard and Veljkovic.

Not all of us have "discarded" Bentaleb and Mason at all, in fact some of us were vociferously campaigning against trying to replace them with certain players this summer. But there is a big difference between evaluating a player after he's had a good chance to prove himself than doing it before you've even seen him.

 

[dudu]

Slightly, but under Pochettino rigid system, not much.

I like all three of those players. I would have absolutely loved to see a three of Capoue with Bentaleb left and Mason right. I think it would have been one of the best midfields in the EPL for balance and range of attributes.

Capoue, is close (of course not perfect but pretty close) to the type of midfielder we spent all summer pursuing. Maybe defensively not quite as tenacious and diligent as Schniederlin without the ball but a good reader, much more mobile than players like Hudd, and his distribution for a DM type was excellent (at least as good as Schniederlin's) and the guy would get through shitloads of ball and use it well and not give it away 25% of the time like Hudd used to, despite attempting and completing a high degree of longer passes.

What I think is, at our very best, we played with that ultra high energy that we saw against Arsenal home and Liverpool away, which saw Mason and Bentaleb at their very best, together. The next best performance for me was Southampton at home, with Capoue and Mason. It didn't quite match that intensity but it was another tight performance with no bagginess that we saw in most other games.

I guess the dynamics will always alter in varying degrees with changes of personnel, but due to Pochettino's rigidity of form and inability last year to get the 10 outfield players cohesively working, especially the front 4 and FB's, with numerous messy and incoherent performances, it was hard to tell how much effect the changes of CM had.

Interesting you bring up the southampton at home game - which i feel is a much better indication of how we would 'want' to play.

vs liverpool last august we were given the run around massively and Capoue was very over worked and very much playing all over the place because as a team we were given the run around for large periods of the game.

His heatmap and passing from that game vs Southampton - he looks much like he was operating on the right side than he did in the kerfuffle of the Lpool 0-3

shooting this way ------------------>

In that game you can see Mason also played more to the left shooting this way ------------>

Without clogging up the thread with loads of pics in the 2-1 win over arsenal you can see a similar pattern for Mason and Bentaleb.

Now take the Leicester game this year - Diers heatmap below looks nearly identical to Capoues above (we were the away team so our goal is to the right in this screenshot) - They had a very similar amount of touches, passes, passes completed and pass completions.

shooting this way <------------------------------------

I just seemed a bit strange comparing Capoues performance in a 3-0 home defeat where he was going to be more busy because we were overly poor in most areas vs Diers performance against a an Everton team that we largely had the better of -

So while i dont disagree that the tactics arent overtly different - when looking into more than just one game it appears to me that Dier is mostly taking up the same positions as other have when playing in that position.

I personally think he is playing relatively well - rarely gives the ball away and has added a little bit of bite to our midfield - something we are definitely in need of.

I think with continued training and encouragement he can fill that gap for us while we need him to.

I am his adopted father afterall.

 

[Monkey boy]

From the horse's mouth himself, Dier saying he and Poch have not spoken a lot about specific instructions since the change of position...
http://www.hamhighbroadway.co.uk/sp...is_new_role_as_a_holding_midfielder_1_4214203

While Dier says he has not received any specific instructions, he has brought a valuable physicality to Tottenham’s midfield - and he believes he can offer something in possession as well.

“I haven’t really spoken to him [Pochettino] about it a lot,” said Dier. “He has put me in there and that [physicality] is one of my attributes so I guess that’s what they’re going to get. I just try and play my game in there and do my best.

Anyone else find it alarming that our Manager is sending guys out there without specific instructions?

 

[CowInAComa]

As is the need by others (like you) to misrepresent what people say. Where has anybody elevated any of our promising academy players to "sure thing" status ?



Not all of us have "discarded" Bentaleb and Mason at all, in fact some of us were vociferously campaigning against trying to replace them with certain players this summer. But there is a big difference between evaluating a player after he's had a good chance to prove himself than doing it before you've even seen him.

The fact you felt the need to campaign on the behalf of two academy graduates from very recent past backs up what I said.

We place such huge immediate expectations on these lads that unless they have a season of Kane or bale proportions they are on a hiding to nothing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Interesting you bring up the southampton at home game - which i feel is a much better indication of how we would 'want' to play.

vs liverpool last august we were given the run around massively and Capoue was very over worked and very much playing all over the place because as a team we were given the run around for large periods of the game.

His heatmap and passing from that game vs Southampton - he looks much like he was operating on the right side than he did in the kerfuffle of the Lpool 0-3

shooting this way ------------------>

View attachment 20111

View attachment 20110

In that game you can see Mason also played more to the left shooting this way ------------>

View attachment 20112

Without clogging up the thread with loads of pics in the 2-1 win over arsenal you can see a similar pattern for Mason and Bentaleb.

Now take the Leicester game this year - Diers heatmap below looks nearly identical to Capoues above (we were the away team so our goal is to the right in this screenshot) - They had a very similar amount of touches, passes, passes completed and pass completions.

shooting this way <------------------------------------

View attachment 20113

I just seemed a bit strange comparing Capoues performance in a 3-0 home defeat where he was going to be more busy because we were overly poor in most areas vs Diers performance against a an Everton team that we largely had the better of -

So while i dont disagree that the tactics arent overtly different - when looking into more than just one game it appears to me that Dier is mostly taking up the same positions as other have when playing in that position.

I personally think he is playing relatively well - rarely gives the ball away and has added a little bit of bite to our midfield - something we are definitely in need of.

I think with continued training and encouragement he can fill that gap for us while we need him to.

I am his adopted father afterall.

Firstly, this bit in bold, you seem to be supporting the case I was making, that we are not adopting a different strategy.

I don't seem to be seeing in those maps what you are saying either. The heat map, even for the Southampton game shows Capoue far more asymmetric than any of Dier's more right biased maps.

We did not get run all over the place against Liverpool, we actually had far more of the ball against them (62%) than we did against Everton last week (50.3). We got carved apart on the break and also conceded a stupid penalty (Guess who?).

I think "relatively well" is massively subjective. IMO he's doing relatively badly. He had a decent game without doing anything spectacular against a tactically very inept Everton. He was varying shades of poor in the previous matches, and has on at least two occasions I can remember given the ball away in very precarious places and gotten away with it.

In a CM2 system you need players who are far more dynamic, comfortable in tight areas and technically proficient and progressive than Dier is.

This is not a criticism of Dier, who I like very much as a promising CB, but of Pochettino, who I think is bottling it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The fact you felt the need to campaign on the behalf of two academy graduates from very recent past backs up what I said.

No, it very much contradicts what you said about discarding them.

We place such huge immediate expectations on these lads that unless they have a season of Kane or bale proportions they are on a hiding to nothing.

Who places such huge expectations on these lads ?

 

[dudu]

Firstly, this bit in bold, you seem to be supporting the case I was making, that we are not adopting a different strategy.

I don't seem to be seeing in those maps what you are saying either. The heat map, even for the Southampton game shows Capoue far more asymmetric than any of Dier's more right biased maps.

We did not get run all over the place against Liverpool, we actually had far more of the ball against them (62%) than we did against Everton last week (50.3). We got carved apart on the break and also conceded a stupid penalty (Guess who?).

I think "relatively well" is massively subjective. IMO he's doing relatively badly. He had a decent game without doing anything spectacular against a tactically very inept Everton. He was varying shades of poor in the previous matches, and has on at least two occasions I can remember given the ball away in very precarious places and gotten away with it.

In a CM2 system you need players who are far more dynamic, comfortable in tight areas and technically proficient and progressive than Dier is.

This is not a criticism of Dier, who I like very much as a promising CB, but of Pochettino, who I think is bottling it.

Fair enough - i think i remember us getting the run around when we didnt have the ball (i.e every time they launched an attack on the break) but yeah we had a lot of the ball in non dangerous areas.

I think "far more" is a little hyperbolic - maybe a little more - Capoue may have drifted to the left slightly more often but the greatest heat they generated to the left side of the centre circle is in nearly in an identical place - and look at how high he (Dier) would find himself up the pitch on the left hand side - Plus there are other factors to consider in relation to who else was playing - how much cover did the other positions need at the time etc.

I make no qulams about agreeing that the strategy is indeed similar......im saying that he is obviously being coached to play that way.