The word that dare not speak it's name

idlepete · Dec 3, 2007

yanno said:
Yes, and that's precisely why I'm not worried at the moment. Ramos is clearly selecting teams according to what he perceives as the strengths of the squad he inherited. That means he knows we can't defend, so he's opted to start on the front foot with an attacking formation. I'm sure that if we'd gone 2-0 or 3-0 up yesterday, he'd have taken one of our strikers off and put the Hud or the Prince on in CM, reverted to his favoured 4-4-2, and shut down the game. I posted this is in a couple of threads yesterday.

I agree, it was obvious. Score early, then put the game to bed, take off a striker and go 4-4-2. Except it was also obvious to McLeish, who set his team up in exactly the right way. The same way most other teams outside the top 4 who visit the Lane do, expecting us to camp in their half of the pitch for 90% of the game passing the ball around in pretty patterns in front of their defences, knowing full well that we'll either leave a massive gap in front of or behind our defence to counterattack into. It's too predictable, and it relies on us being able to absolutely steamroller teams early doors, or we're left with a mountain to climb. Not that Ramos bears any blame for taking this approach. It was all Jol could do as well.

yanno said:
I will only be worried if, by the end of January, we don't have an experienced CB, an experienced C/DM, and another good LM/LB type added to our squad.

You're obviously more confident than me that we'll get them. I'm just praying to the football Gods.

Chinaspur · Dec 3, 2007

Easy Pissy?Surely I'm not the only one who found that funny. People are taking this relegation thing too seriously - lighten up!

yanno · Dec 3, 2007

idlepete said:
You're obviously more confident than me that we'll get them. I'm just praying to the football Gods.

Well, actually, I have been having a sneaky prayer...

ray:

ray:

The main difference between BMJ's and Ramos' position is that Juande is on a massive multi-year salary, and has been brought in as the Saviour. If Juande sez: "I want experienced CB A and experienced CM B", and Comolli replies "Well you can have promising young CB Y and promising young CM Z - take it or leave it", Juande can give Comolli the middle finger. Levy has to back Ramos in this situation, and sign the players the coach, rather than the DoF, wants.

And the highly ironic part is that it's arguable that Jol bit the bullet for Comolli's misguided signings, but now if Ramos targets the wrong players, Levy has already told Comolli that it'll be Comolli's fault and he'll carry the can... There really is no justice in business or in life...

mg:

idlepete · Dec 3, 2007

yanno said:
Well, actually, I have been having a sneaky prayer...ray:ray:ray:

The main difference between BMJ's and Ramos' position is that Juande is on a massive multi-year salary, and has been brought in as the Saviour. If Juande sez: "I want experienced CB A and experienced CM B", and Comolli replies "Well you can have promising young CB Y and promising young CM Z - take it or leave it", Juande can give Comolli the middle finger. Levy has to back Ramos in this situation, and sign the players the coach, rather than the DoF, wants.

And the highly ironic part is that it's arguable that Jol bit the bullet for Comolli's misplaced signings, but now if Ramos targets the wrong players, Levy has already told Comolli that it'll be Comolli's fault and he'll carry the can... There really is no justice in business or in life... mg:mg:mg:

There's a lot been said on the subject of who's responsible for what, and I'm not prepared to believe anything the board says on that score anymore. Logically, Comolli should be carrying the can as soon as it becomes evident that Ramos can get no more out of this group of players than Jol could.

My biggest worry is that we simply won't be able to attract experienced CB A or experienced CM B. Players of the calibre we need will be playing for teams that won't want to let them go in Jan, and they'll just be too expensive. Levy will end up buying promising young CB Y and promising young CM Z, and Ramos will end up agreeing to it, because it's better than nothing. I really hope I'm wrong.

thetallaghttiger · Dec 3, 2007

When/If we reach the 40 pts mark, I will be VERY relieved!

I have a feeling also that we won't spend muh/if at all in January as the board won't want to pay over the odds for players. Instead, Ramos will have to stick it out with the current squad and have to wait till the summer of 2008 for players he wants.

Carling Cup/Uefa Cup/FA Cup are to be our most important games of the season! Although, until, we get to the 40 pts ,ark, the League is the most important thing

joey55 · Dec 3, 2007

idlepete said:
There's a lot been said on the subject of who's responsible for what, and I'm not prepared to believe anything the board says on that score anymore. Logically, Comolli should be carrying the can as soon as it becomes evident that Ramos can get no more out of this group of players than Jol could.

My biggest worry is that we simply won't be able to attract experienced CB A or experienced CM B. Players of the calibre we need will be playing for teams that won't want to let them go in Jan, and they'll just be too expensive. Levy will end up buying promising young CB Y and promising young CM Z, and Ramos will end up agreeing to it, because it's better than nothing. I really hope I'm wrong.

My worry is what the board and our fans will consider "more" to be. The start to this season is in no way representative of what Jol could get out of this group of players. Off the field activites clearly effected that. This is the same squad, with a few superior additions, that got 60 pts last season. That telss us what Jol can get of them. The unsettled start we had to the season doesn't concern Ramos. He knows he has the whole club behind him. We should therefore be comparing his results to those of Jols last season. People will argue he needs to time settle, but in actual fact if you look at successful coaches that repalce coaches that weren't upto it, the most significant improvement come in the first few months and slow down after that.

When i say compare results between Jol and Ramos, i don't mean so that we can say who is the better coach as it simply doesn't do that. But what it does do, is tell us about the strength of our squad. If Ramos, who is a proven top qulaity coach, can't earn more points in the 26 games he'll be in charge for, compared to what Jol got in the same 26 games last season, it should tell us an awful lot about whether we've been under achieving since the summer of 2006 or not. I just hope our fans don't think that an upturn in our results compared to the first 12 games is enough to get the board/Comolli off the hook. We need results that show our failure to challenge for a CL spot since the 2005/6 was down to poor coaching, rather than poor transfer market activity.

If you look at examples of when new coaches have comes in mid way through a season in the past, those who genuinely prove to be an improvement on the previouis guy, have an immediate up turn in results, that was not only better than what the achieved that season, but the season before ie Wenger, Bobby Robson and Mark Hughes. Personally i think the chances of this improved squad, earning more points in the remainder of this season, than in the equivalent games of last season is very small.

Basically what i'm saying, is that when the problem at a club genuinley is a coaching issue, the histroy of football tells us that this becomes apparent within the first 6 months of the coach's reign. They don't only improve on the poor start, but also the previous season'r results. We'll know by the end of the season where the fault for our failure to build in the last 18 months really lies.

walworthyid · Dec 3, 2007

yanno said:
Well, actually, I have been having a sneaky prayer...ray:ray:ray:

The main difference between BMJ's and Ramos' position is that Juande is on a massive multi-year salary, and has been brought in as the Saviour. If Juande sez: "I want experienced CB A and experienced CM B", and Comolli replies "Well you can have promising young CB Y and promising young CM Z - take it or leave it", Juande can give Comolli the middle finger. Levy has to back Ramos in this situation, and sign the players the coach, rather than the DoF, wants.

And the highly ironic part is that it's arguable that Jol bit the bullet for Comolli's misguided signings, but now if Ramos targets the wrong players, Levy has already told Comolli that it'll be Comolli's fault and he'll carry the can... There really is no justice in business or in life... mg:mg:mg:

Spot on. If Ramos, twice uefa cup winner and one of the most wanted coaches in euro football, says we need A,B,C or we are bang in trouble, he will get his way if it is at all possible.

As far as relegation goes I am not unduly concerned. While no team is too good to go down, no rich club has ever been relegated from the prem. The reason? Not only do they have the players in the first place to stage a recovery, but the are able to buy sufficient players if they need to.

We will finish in the top half. We are in this position for no more a complicated reason than we have no defenders fit. If Rocha and Ledley had been playing since the start of the season we would be in the top 6. Goals change games and we have been shipping goals almost exclusively due to individual errors that would not have happened had our first choice pairing been fit.

worcestersauce · Dec 3, 2007

walworthyid said:
Spot on. If Ramos, twice uefa cup winner and one of the most wanted coaches in euro football, says we need A,B,C or we are bang in trouble, he will get his way if it is at all possible.

As far as relegation goes I am not unduly concerned. While no team is too good to go down, no rich club has ever been relegated from the prem. The reason? Not only do they have the players in the first place to stage a recovery, but the are able to buy sufficient players if they need to.

We will finish in the top half. We are in this position for no more a complicated reason than we have no defenders fit. If Rocha and Ledley had been playing since the start of the season we would be in the top 6. Goals change games and we have been shipping goals almost exclusively due to individual errors that would not have happened had our first choice pairing been fit.

Oh for heavens sake! if you come onto this board wearing your intelligent head talking such complete and utter sense you will find yourself in big trouble my friend.

:clap:

walworthyid · Dec 3, 2007

joey55 said:
My worry is what the board and our fans will consider "more" to be. The start to this season is in no way representative of what Jol could get out of this group of players. Off the field activites clearly effected that. This is the same squad, with a few superior additions, that got 60 pts last season. That telss us what Jol can get of them. The unsettled start we had to the season doesn't concern Ramos. He knows he has the whole club behind him. We should therefore be comparing his results to those of Jols last season. People will argue he needs to time settle, but in actual fact if you look at successful coaches that repalce coaches that weren't upto it, the most significant improvement come in the first few months and slow down after that.

When i say compare results between Jol and Ramos, i don't mean so that we can say who is the better coach as it simply doesn't do that. But what it does do, is tell us about the strength of our squad. If Ramos, who is a proven top qulaity coach, can't earn more points in the 26 games he'll be in charge for, compared to what Jol got in the same 26 games last season, it should tell us an awful lot about whether we've been under achieving since the summer of 2006 or not. I just hope our fans don't think that an upturn in our results compared to the first 12 games is enough to get the board/Comolli off the hook. We need results that show our failure to challenge for a CL spot since the 2005/6 was down to poor coaching, rather than poor transfer market activity.

If you look at examples of when new coaches have comes in mid way through a season in the past, those who genuinely prove to be an improvement on the previouis guy, have an immediate up turn in results, that was not only better than what the achieved that season, but the season before ie Wenger, Bobby Robson and Mark Hughes. Personally i think the chances of this improved squad, earning more points in the remainder of this season, than in the equivalent games of last season is very small.

While there is some truth in what you say it does ignore the principle causes of our failure this season and the reasons why if nothing is done that we will continue to struggle.

We are in this position because we can't defend properly, simple as that. There is nothing that Jol or Ramos can do about it. Dawson, Bale, Kaboul, Chimbo, Zokora have all cost us goals and games this season. Kaboul has pretty much single-handedly cost us 5 points in a week.

It has nothing to do with midfield, up front, tactics, formations or anything else. If you keep conceding soft goals you will lose games and points.

Look at our away performances this season. Should have won at Man u (much like we should have won up there for 3 of the past 4 seasons) 3 pts, should have won at Anfield 2 pts, should have won at West Ham 2 pts, should have won at Fulham 2 pts, should have won at Bolton 2 pts, should have won at Boro 2pts, should have drawn at Sunderland 1 pt. That is 16 pts in away games alone.

At home, should have won v birmingham 3pts, Blackburn 3 pts. 22 pts that if we had won, not many would complain.

Why don't we have those points? We can't defend because all of our defenders are injured.

This has nothing to do with managers.

We are dominating games more than ever before and certainly more than we did the season we SHOULD have been 4th. We score goals, we create chances, we just can't bloody defend.

Rocha and King are by far out best defenders and if they play we won't lose many. It really is that simple.

walworthyid · Dec 3, 2007

worcestersauce said:
Oh for heavens sake! if you come onto this board wearing your intelligent head talking such complete and utter sense you will find yourself in big trouble my friend. :clap:

Do you care to elaborate or are you the one talking nonsense?

Sorry, special needs moment, thought you said I wise talking NONSENSE, not SENSE!

Apologies that man:bowdown:

joey55 · Dec 3, 2007

walworthyid said:
While there is some truth in what you say it does ignore the principle causes of our failure this season and the reasons why if nothing is done that we will continue to struggle.

We are in this position because we can't defend properly, simple as that. There is nothing that Jol or Ramos can do about it. Dawson, Bale, Kaboul, Chimbo, Zokora have all cost us goals and games this season. Kaboul has pretty much single-handedly cost us 5 points in a week.

It has nothing to do with midfield, up front, tactics, formations or anything else. If you keep conceding soft goals you will lose games and points.

Look at our away performances this season. Should have won at Man u (much like we should have won up there for 3 of the past 4 seasons) 3 pts, should have won at Anfield 2 pts, should have won at West Ham 2 pts, should have won at Fulham 2 pts, should have won at Bolton 2 pts, should have won at Boro 2pts, should have drawn at Sunderland 1 pt. That is 16 pts in away games alone.

At home, should have won v birmingham 3pts, Blackburn 3 pts. 22 pts that if we had won, not many would complain.

Why don't we have those points? We can't defend because all of our defenders are injured.

This has nothing to do with managers.

We are dominating games more than ever before and certainly more than we did the season we SHOULD have been 4th. We score goals, we create chances, we just can't bloody defend.

Rocha and King are by far out best defenders and if they play we won't lose many. It really is that simple.

But we are then in total agreement. I'm saying that we'll find out by the end of the season that our results weren't down to poor coaching, but because we don't have the right players. The bit I've highlighted is the exact argument I've been manking for months and produced masses of evidence to support it. However, no one seemed interested in doing any research or homework and people made comments like the "buch stops with Jol". In general people were happy to take the easy option and blame the coach. Your claim that we'd have been doing well with Rocha and King is something i fully agree with. But, it was clear from last season that we needed another quality experiecned CB, as if King was injured we don't have good enough cover. We also needed a quality DM and a LW. Had we had these players (ie Petrov, MAkoun, Disitin) we wouldn't be in trouble now, regardless of the injuries we've had. Therefore, I think those who bring the players in need to take responsibility and not the coach.

idlepete · Dec 3, 2007

joey55 said:
My worry is what the board and our fans will consider "more" to be. The start to this season is in no way representative of what Jol could get out of this group of players. Off the field activites clearly effected that. This is the same squad, with a few superior additions, that got 60 pts last season. That telss us what Jol can get of them. The unsettled start we had to the season doesn't concern Ramos. He knows he has the whole club behind him. We should therefore be comparing his results to those of Jols last season. People will argue he needs to time settle, but in actual fact if you look at successful coaches that repalce coaches that weren't upto it, the most significant improvement come in the first few months and slow down after that.

When i say compare results between Jol and Ramos, i don't mean so that we can say who is the better coach as it simply doesn't do that. But what it does do, is tell us about the strength of our squad. If Ramos, who is a proven top qulaity coach, can't earn more points in the 26 games he'll be in charge for, compared to what Jol got in the same 26 games last season, it should tell us an awful lot about whether we've been under achieving since the summer of 2006 or not. I just hope our fans don't think that an upturn in our results compared to the first 12 games is enough to get the board/Comolli off the hook. We need results that show our failure to challenge for a CL spot since the 2005/6 was down to poor coaching, rather than poor transfer market activity.

If you look at examples of when new coaches have comes in mid way through a season in the past, those who genuinely prove to be an improvement on the previouis guy, have an immediate up turn in results, that was not only better than what the achieved that season, but the season before ie Wenger, Bobby Robson and Mark Hughes. Personally i think the chances of this improved squad, earning more points in the remainder of this season, than in the equivalent games of last season is very small.

Basically what i'm saying, is that when the problem at a club genuinley is a coaching issue, the histroy of football tells us that this becomes apparent within the first 6 months of the coach's reign. They don't only improve on the poor start, but also the previous season'r results. We'll know by the end of the season where the fault for our failure to build in the last 18 months really lies.

Agree with all of that.

41john · Dec 3, 2007

walworthyid you talk a lot of sense, rep coming your way.

we all know that we are letting in a lot of soft goals, despite dominating tonnes of games. Once we have rocha, gardner and king back, we can rest kaboul and dawson who have had confidence shot to pieces and just dont work together as a unit.

tony0379 · Dec 3, 2007

we dont pick 3 wins this month i fear the worst

Bobbins · Dec 3, 2007

I'm getting fed up with this thread, there's far too much sensible and rational debate going on here. Don't you people realise you're on SC now? I don't want to have to actually read all the posts in a thread because they contain thoughful and interesting ideas! You're all eating into my COD4 time!

Bus-Conductor · Dec 3, 2007

joey55 said:
To be honest i get the impression people are trying to convince themsleves that there is a reasonable chance we will get relegated, so that when we turn things round and finish top 10, which we will (or close to it), we can then equally convince ourselves that things are on the up and that next season we can fight for a CL place. People will come up with all sorts of post Xmas results which show we were one of the best sides in the Prem from say Feb to MArch and therefore all is well, so roll on next season. We need to get real. We aren't going down, but no matter what happens for the rest of the season, short of a quite amazing run that see's us finish in the top 5, it has been a disaster and those responsible for it should be put under real pressure (vocally from the crowd) towards the end of the season and let them no that we demand better from next summers transfer activity.

So we should start booing Robinson, Dawson and Chimbonda from next Sunday then ?

Here's the weird thing. thousands of our fans have defended and even worshiped people like Dawson and Robinson (maybe not you) thousands of our fans and pundits and fellow proffesionals had heaped praise on those three over the last couple of years. Robinson regularly picked for England, Chimbonda for the prem X1. With King and Lee and backup like Rocha and Gardner, You can hardly level any blame at Levy for thinking that so far everything he'd done had advanced us in every way possible using a sustainable grwoth method.

What I don't undersatnd is why when a very small minority (and I've even argued about Dawson with you Joey) of us could see that Dawson was a liability two and half season ago (and Robinson not long after) why didn't Jol. The answer is Jol was a populist who either didn't have the cahoonies to drop the pair or wasn't good enough a manager to realise what the real problems were. Baring in mind he chose Mido over Kanoute, Brown over Mendes, Dawson over Gardner or Rocha and refused to pick Davids when he was what we needed most I believe probably a bit of both.

When many were prepared to spend hours bitching about Zokora, Jenas, Malbranque, Davids, lee & even carrick some of us were trying to point out that our biggest problems were actually everybody's heros.

You could lay a bit of blame on Comoli for not insisting to Jol that a replacement for Dawson, Robinson etc should be found but Jol was hardly warm to Comolis team suggestions was he. And Comoli was working with Jol in team building and within Levy's remit (a remit which had yielded all we could of hoped for up to now).

The biggest problem was Jols inability to see that he had built his defence round a pair of fucking jesters and was willing to part with Lee the only experienced defender he had. he had jetisoned one of the most experienced quality DM's that the game has seen in recent years when it was the biggest missing ingredient, had swaped one of europes most complete strikers for a fat dud.

To "Voice" criticism of Levy or Comoli would be fucking harsh in my opinion. One has turned this club almost 360%. Theother has carried out his remit pretty well and brought in several very good signings.

The question that must be asked though is why Jol (the football man at the pit face) couldn't see how poor certain players in pivotal positions were when some of us mere mortals could.

joey55 · Dec 3, 2007

Bus-Conductor said:
So we should start booing Robinson, Dawson and Chimbonda from next Sunday then ?

Here's the weird thing. thousands of our fans have defended and even worshiped people like Dawson and Robinson (maybe not you) thousands of our fans and pundits and fellow proffesionals had heaped praise on those three over the last couple of years. Robinson regularly picked for England, Chimbonda for the prem X1. With King and Lee and backup like Rocha and Gardner, You can hardly level any blame at Levy for thinking that so far everything he'd done had advanced us in every way possible using a sustainable grwoth method.

What I don't undersatnd is why when a very small minority (and I've even argued about Dawson with you Joey) of us could see that Dawson was a liability two and half season ago (and Robinson not long after) why didn't Jol. The answer is Jol was a populist who either didn't have the cahoonies to drop the pair or wasn't good enough a manager to realise what the real problems were. Baring in mind he chose Mido over Kanoute, Brown over Mendes, Dawson over Gardner or Rocha and refused to pick Davids when he was what we needed most I believe probably a bit of both.

When many were prepared to spend hours bitching about Zokora, Jenas, Malbranque, Davids, lee & even carrick some of us were trying to point out that our biggest problems were actually everybody's heros.

You could lay a bit of blame on Comoli for not insisting to Jol that a replacement for Dawson, Robinson etc should be found but Jol was hardly warm to Comolis team suggestions was he. And Comoli was working with Jol in team building and within Levy's remit (a remit which had yielded all we could of hoped for up to now).

The biggest problem was Jols inability to see that he had built his defence round a pair of fucking jesters and was willing to part with Lee the only experienced defender he had. he had jetisoned one of the most experienced quality DM's that the game has seen in recent years when it was the biggest missing ingredient, had swaped one of europes most complete strikers for a fat dud.

To "Voice" criticism of Levy or Comoli would be fucking harsh in my opinion. One has turned this club almost 360%. Theother has carried out his remit pretty well and brought in several very good signings.

The question that must be asked though is why Jol (the football man at the pit face) couldn't see how poor certain players in pivotal positions were when some of us mere mortals could.

Jol clearly did ask for a new CB. WTF do you think we signed one? Jol recognised we had a problem and asked for a solution. What's your problem with that? You are suggesting Jol was willing to part with Lee, yet that almost certainly wasn't the case. Comolli brought in BAE and a deal was set up to sell Lee to Roma, which suddenly didn't happern. Who do you think convinced Lee to stay. FFS we bought Lee when Jol was running things without a Director of Football. Jol didn't choose Brown over Mendes. He chose Carrick over Mendes. He got th decision right. he chose Mido over Kanoute and got the decison right. You seem to have a real issue with the club doing well. When Jol came in and went with Carrick over Mendes we were averaging a ppg that would have given us a total of 41 pts, which was less than the previous season under Pleat. Jol made the decisions and we finished on 52 pts. The following season he allowed Kanoute to leave and went with Mido, who easily beat Kanoutes best season for us and also made the most assists in our squad. Jol got the decision right and if it wasn't for a freak illness on the final day we'd probably have been in the CL. As for Davids, you know the story there, so just leave it.

You are clearly letting you personal disslike of Jol cloud your judgement (please don't deny this, as it is too easy to drag up links to posts of the number of times you mentioned Jols name followed by a contemptuous insult). You know my opinions on Levy and therefore you know that I've been pleased with the way the club grew under him and for a long period was very supportive. But I can blame him for not recognising early enough, that things need to change or that perhaps he has recognised this and is keen to get out and until which time we are left treading water. You have issues with jols decisions, but everyone you comlain about seem to have turned out to be good for the club. As a fan your first concern should be success on the pitch and Jols decisions gave us that.

Bus-Conductor · Dec 4, 2007

Actually I think by and large I've been pretty fair about Jol the way you have about levy. I always said that Jol was adecent enough coach but had limitations and weaknesses. I didn't dislike Jol, I even felt some sympathy for him. To be fair, I did criticise ramos's tactics on Sunday as I had with Jol's previously.

The argument you used so conveniently for Carrick the other day (that it was the players that arrived post Carrick that made us more creative) is even more relevant to Kanoute. If you say Jol was right to chose Mido over Kanoute you are fucking mad. You could tie one of kanoute's legs to the other and he could have done what Mido did fo us. Probably better.

The mendes Brown thing again is just you refusing to see it any other way than the way your beloved, yellow helmited Jol saw it. Just because He decided that Carrick and mendes couldn't play together don't make it so. Mendes could have done what Brown did, only better.

And I couldn't give a fuck what Jol asked for, it doesn't explain why when Rocha was playing well at the start of the season he dropped him for dawson. Why in fact he refused to drop dawson all of last year. A couple of stray passes from Davids and he was history. A goal a game from Dawson and he was invinceable. Go figure.

And as for being in CL bar illness, Jol is hardly blameless. There were a couple of gutless perfomances prior to Wham away. And on the day he had fit players sitting on the bench and sick ones on the pitch. Even then he tried to sub Davids who was in far beter nick than Carrick who was dead on his feet and Davids had to take the decision for Jol (probablythe beginning of his end). So there is plenty of evidence of Jol's decisions costing us. Maybe if we'd had Kanoute we'd have made the CL. he helped get sevilla there.

Like I said, maybe Comoli should be lobbying Levy a little harder for what is desperately needed (but we don't know that he isn't do we), but maybe they both thought that the model was working why change strategy. In a way it still is. We are probably playing even better football this year than last - but poor managerial decisions, individual errors, terrible run of injuries to key defensive players and some pretty shit luck are killing us.

joey55 · Dec 4, 2007

Bus-Conductor said:
Actually I think by and large I've been pretty fair about Jol the way you have about levy. I always said that Jol was adecent enough coach but had limitations and weaknesses. I didn't dislike Jol, I even felt some sympathy for him. To be fair, I did criticise ramos's tactics on Sunday as I had with Jol's previously.

The argument you used so conveniently for Carrick the other day (that it was the players that arrived post Carrick that made us more creative) is even more relevant to Kanoute. If you say Jol was right to chose Mido over Kanoute you are fucking mad. You could tie one of kanoute's legs to the other and he could have done what Mido did fo us. Probably better.

The mendes Brown thing again is just you refusing to see it any other way than the way your beloved, yellow helmited Jol saw it. Just because He decided that Carrick and mendes couldn't play together don't make it so. Mendes could have done what Brown did, only better.

And I couldn't give a fuck what Jol asked for, it doesn't explain why when Rocha was playing well at the start of the season he dropped him for dawson. Why in fact he refused to drop dawson all of last year. A couple of stray passes from Davids and he was history. A goal a game from Dawson and he was invinceable. Go figure.

And as for being in CL bar illness, Jol is hardly blameless. There were a couple of gutless perfomances prior to Wham away. And on the day he had fit players sitting on the bench and sick ones on the pitch. Even then he tried to sub Davids who was in far beter nick than Carrick who was dead on his feet and Davids had to take the decision for Jol (probablythe beginning of his end). So there is plenty of evidence of Jol's decisions costing us. Maybe if we'd had Kanoute we'd have made the CL. he helped get sevilla there.

Like I said, maybe Comoli should be lobbying Levy a little harder for what is desperately needed (but we don't know that he isn't do we), but maybe they both thought that the model was working why change strategy. In a way it still is. We are probably playing even better football this year than last - but poor managerial decisions, individual errors, terrible run of injuries to key defensive players and some pretty shit luck are killing us.

The whole Kanoute argument is ridiculous. He scored just 7 goals in both his 2 season with us. Jol replaced him with a player who scored 11 and made the most assists of our whole squad. I don't see how you can have a problem with that or how you can accuse anyone of being mad for supporting a decision that paid dividends. Different coach's like and work better with different players. Jol preffered Mido for his system and was very much proved right. Jol chose Brown ahead of Mendes because he wanted grit in the team. Mendes really doesn't offer that to the extent Brown does (the third highest tackler in the Prem last season). It isn't just about possession. Brown will close down and ahrry far more than either Carrick or Mendes. Jol makes decisions were based on how he wants to play. It isn't a case of always choosing the better footballer, but the player with the right attributes for the role. Again, results suggest Jol very much got it right. It's not as if he never played Mendes.

fortworthspur · Dec 4, 2007

I figure Wigan and Derby are an order of magnitude worse than anyone else in the EPL, and have two relegation spots sewn up. I mean I know its obviously not determined yet, but seems likely. So everyone else is playing to avoid one spot. If we cant do that then maybe some of the stars should bolt.

As far as Europe, its obviously not going to happen through the table. Almost certainly not through the Carling Cup, but we still have a few weeks to turn things around before the FA cup. So Im going to be optimistic since there's really nothing else to look forward to this year.

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