The reality of no European football

dontcallme · May 29, 2023

Phil_2.0 said:
Fans really have their heads in the sand if they think we are going to get good value from all our trash and its not bloated to fuck.

The facts are in the last 5 seasons each summer we have sold players for these amounts.

Summer 2022 - 38m
Summer 2021 - 31m
Summer 2020 - 13m
Summer 2019 - 64m (including Eriksen to Inter in the winter)
Summer 2018 - 0

It's atrocious performance. I don't understand where people think coming of our worst season for a decade teams are going to start clamoring over themselves to buy our shit players.

Our net spend is 450m in the last 5 years and our wage bill has gone through the roof, Levy will not like the latter the most. Maybe Levy will keep going but my sense is that we are going to be shifting out a lot of shit for no money and that won't create conditions for this ownership to pump in another 150m, that they are probably upset at wasting last summer.

Who has said we are going to get good value for our players?

We can release/not buy Moura, Danjuma and Lenglet. There were a few stories that Perisic wants to go back to Inter. I'm sure we'd happily send him back for free.

Dier, Sanchez and Lloris' deals all expire next summer. Lloris we can possibly sell but get pretty much nothing for. We might get a small fee for Sanchez. My guess is Dier stays, our big hope is we don't offer him a new contract.

So we won't be recouping much money on player sales. But it still needs to be done.

Yiddo100 · May 29, 2023

the yid said:
Tanganga, Ndombele, Dier, Sessengnon, Winks, Lloris and Perisic should all just be released instantly. Sanchez aswell without any interest.

We’d get money for all of them bar Lloris and perisic, won’t be a lot but we shouldn’t be releasing them.

Phil_2.0 · May 29, 2023

Yiddo100 said:
We’d get money for all of them bar Lloris and perisic, won’t be a lot but we shouldn’t be releasing them.

Who do you think would buy Winks, Ndombele, Dier and Tanganga? and for how much?

dontcallme · May 29, 2023

Yiddo100 said:
We’d get money for all of them bar Lloris and perisic, won’t be a lot but we shouldn’t be releasing them.

Ndombele has been available for a while but we've had nothing outside of loan offers. We can probably get fees for Tanganga, Sessegnon and Winks.

I can't see anyone paying Dier's wages. At best, we get an Adebayor style deal where we get a fee but part of it pays his wages for the 1st year.

UncleBuck · May 29, 2023

FITZ said:
How many fancy playing at Luton? Prem league, don’t have to move house etc…

They will need to buy to stay up.

Absolutely no chance, they haven’t got two Bob to rub together, they are borrowing money to fund their stadium development just to bring it up to PL requirements.
I’ve also heard Edwards is looking to give the guys who got them promotion a proper chance so don’t expect them to come knocking for any of our cast offs!

wrd · May 29, 2023

dontcallme said:
Moura is out of contract and clearly leaving. Danjuma, Kulusevski and Lenglet's buy options are due this summer. Hopefully we just buy Kulusevski and release the other 2.

Kane, Dier, Sanchez, Perisic, Lloris and Forster's contracts all expire next summer. For this season we should only be looking to keep Kane and Forster.

Without Europe we can have a slightly smaller squad for this season. We really need to let a significant amount of players go this summer.

Can see us letting Perisic and Lloris go for free

Styopa · May 29, 2023

beats1 said:
Porro signing didn't make sense unless you expected Conte to be there for the long haul. Porro was forcing you to go down the 3 at the back route.

The problem is, by January when we signed porro, it seemed clear Conte didn't intend to stay after this season imo

Yeah. One of the reasons our squad is so bloated is that it is full of players bought for previous managers to work with.

For example, we bought Ndombele, Lo Celso and Sessengon for Pochettino and sacked him a few months later. We splurged on Porro in January and brought in Perisic on big bucks the previous summer. We still have Hjobjerg and Reguilon from the Mourinho days.

That's six or seven players who had roughly a season or less to work with the coach in charge when they arrived at the club.

Yiddo100 · May 29, 2023

Phil_2.0 said:
Who do you think would buy Winks, Ndombele, Dier and Tanganga? and for how much?

I think they’re still here because Levy asks too much, so hypothetically if he were to be willing to release them for free in theory he should be willing to accept a lower fee.
Winks didn’t do too bad in Italy, not great but enough to get 3/4 million
Ndombele- if we would accept 10m I’m confident there would be a buyer, we may have to subsidise some wages but the fee would offset that.
Dier- Everton, Forest Sheff U team like that we could maybe get 5-8m
Tanganga - Don’t know tbh seeing as his agent touts him in Italy I’m sure there would a willing taker although for a minimal fee.

Even if we sold them all for 3 million each that’s still 12 million and wages off the books. I know it’s not that easy but I think these are sellable assets (if someone acts reasonably :whistle:

) that shouldn’t just be released for nothing.

only1waddle · May 29, 2023

jimbo said:
I think a key factor in how this plays out is whether or not Levy/the board still believe we have ‘a talented squad’ and will expect the new coach to work with most of it.

If there is recognition that our squad is unbalanced and needs surgery regardless of the talents of individual players then it will be very hard to do everything needed this summer but we can probably make some solid progress.

If they think it’s just a ‘manager problem’ and the squad is fine then we’re in big trouble.

I guess we’ll find out in the next month or so - assuming we can get a DoF and Head Coach appointed in that timeframe.

A couple of club statements have mentioned poor recruitment and a "review" of the football side, but whether Levy understands why, and how important it is to get a balanced squad is just guesswork.

mil1lion · May 29, 2023

Surely we can form a go Kart team with Winks, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sanchez and Lloris? Form a concert liason team of Dier, Rodon, Reguilon, Spence and Davies. Get Tanganga operating the Dare Skywalk, he'll love that. Perisic can do the stadium tours. Gil can host the NFL games.

Phil_2.0 · May 29, 2023

Yiddo100 said:
I think they’re still here because Levy asks too much, so hypothetically if he were to be willing to release them for free in theory he should be willing to accept a lower fee.
Winks didn’t do too bad in Italy, not great but enough to get 3/4 million
Ndombele- if we would accept 10m I’m confident there would be a buyer, we may have to subsidise some wages but the fee would offset that.
Dier- Everton, Forest Sheff U team like that we could maybe get 5-8m
Tanganga - Don’t know tbh seeing as his agent touts him in Italy I’m sure there would a willing taker although for a minimal fee.

Even if we sold them all for 3 million each that’s still 12 million and wages off the books. I know it’s not that easy but I think these are sellable assets (if someone acts reasonably ) that shouldn’t just be released for nothing.

If we're having to offset Ndombele's wages then the actual money we'd get is closer to 0. I can see us reporting a transfer fee for Ndombele for FFP but I can't imagine we will get more than 5m at most in real world money because Ndombele is on 10m a year.

Nobody will buy Dier for any amount, not many teams are spending 8m on a 30 year old defender coming off a terrible season with 1 year on his contract. Southampton got Bella-Kotchup for 8m last summer, a team would much rather go for Bella-Kotchup for 8m than sink that money into a past it Eric Dier. Last year Conor Coady could only get a loan. It's not like you buy Dier for experienced reliability, guy got more errors on him than anyone.

Maybe we could get 2m for Winks. We might have to subsidize his wages for a year too because the Italian clubs that would have him have no money, so it would come out closer to 0 again.

Tanganga has some value because he is youngish and HG but hes also only played 50 games at the age of 24. I think we will only be able to loan him out.

JUSTINSIGNAL · May 29, 2023

shoggy33 said:
We've got plenty of players who should be surplus to requirements that other clubs would want. Sanchez, Dier, Perisic, PEH, GLC, Winks would have no issues finding another club. The issue is that Levy would have to accept a low fee, and the players would probably have to accept a career step-down and a paycut.

Many teams can’t afford their wages and players don’t want to take a wage drop.

Yes there is sense writing off the contract of players 30+ but anyone at their peak or younger will still have some resale value up until the last months of their contract so better to loan them out with the hope that a club will eventually pay us enough to cover the remainder of their contract.

Jiminio · May 29, 2023

Chelsea have no European football and an even more bloated squad yet are signing yet more players

dontcallme · May 29, 2023

JUSTINSIGNAL said:
Many teams can’t afford their wages and players don’t want to take a wage drop.

Yes there is sense writing off the contract of players 30+ but anyone at their peak or younger will still have some resale value up until the last months of their contract so better to loan them out with the hope that a club will eventually pay us enough to cover the remainder of their contract.

It's unbelievable that fans still go with the "we won't take a loss on the transfer fee" narrative.

Every team in the top 6 struggles to sell underperforming players on high salaries.

For the love of Spurs · May 29, 2023

alpha said:
The reality is Kane leaves, Spurs appoint Rogers or Potter and we do a Leicester next season and get relegated. Only then will the fans turn on Levy in droves. In the meantime we can all enjoy the magic roundabout of hope followed by disappointment.

Last time I felt this disconnected from Spurs was the latter part of the Sugar term. The only way we get out of this is utilise the fan communication channels and protest with larger numbers outside of the stadium.

We will probably keep Kane and that will stop a relegation battle. We will at least be mid table with him.

SUIYHA · May 29, 2023

Phil_2.0 said:
Fans really have their heads in the sand if they think we are going to get good value from all our trash and its not bloated to fuck.

The facts are in the last 5 seasons each summer we have sold players for these amounts.

Summer 2022 - 38m
Summer 2021 - 31m
Summer 2020 - 13m
Summer 2019 - 64m (including Eriksen to Inter in the winter)
Summer 2018 - 0

It's atrocious performance. I don't understand where people think coming of our worst season for a decade teams are going to start clamoring over themselves to buy our shit players.

Our net spend is 450m in the last 5 years and our wage bill has gone through the roof, Levy will not like the latter the most. Maybe Levy will keep going but my sense is that we are going to be shifting out a lot of shit for no money and that won't create conditions for this ownership to pump in another 150m, that they are probably upset at wasting last summer.

Seems like forever ago that Levy was known for rinsing teams for every penny they were worth when selling our players - forget selling Bale for a world record fee or Walker for world record for a defender, remember taking Stoke to the cleaners for Kevin bloody Wimmer? Can't remember the last big sale, I guess Bergwijn we got okish money for but then blew more than double it on Richarlison who hasn't been any better at all.

SUIYHA · May 29, 2023

dontcallme said:
It's unbelievable that fans still go with the "we won't take a loss on the transfer fee" narrative.

Every team in the top 6 struggles to sell underperforming players on high salaries.

Chelsea used to get away with it for years - seemed particularly good at fetching big transfer fees from China, and I remember Klopp managing to get way over the odds for some of the deadwood he inherited like Benteke, Sakho and Ibe.

It's about being in the right place at the right time though. Someone like Lo Celso might fetch a good fee given his relationship with Emery and his explots for Argentina, but it'll be a small handful of clubs who might also have other options. Whereas I can't see anyone paying for Winks or Ndombele even though they've probably been better players for us overall.

Phil_2.0 · May 29, 2023

SUIYHA said:
Seems like forever ago that Levy was known for rinsing teams for every penny they were worth when selling our players - forget selling Bale for a world record fee or Walker for world record for a defender, remember taking Stoke to the cleaners for Kevin bloody Wimmer? Can't remember the last big sale, I guess Bergwijn we got okish money for but then blew more than double it on Richarlison who hasn't been any better at all.

Yeah spot on. I think it's multiple factors, the Premier League has become so dominant with money and Europe has very little so teams lower down the Premier League can take top European talent instead of taking top 6 cast offs. Top 6 all struggle to sell players because they are all on big wages and big transfer fees that they become difficult to shift if they are underperforming. Finally it's also because people have gotten wise to Daniel Levy, the hard negotiating style annoys people and doing deals is about relationships and people will not want to deal with someone again who haggles as hard as Levy does and is unwilling to concede anything.

dontcallme · May 29, 2023

SUIYHA said:
Chelsea used to get away with it for years - seemed particularly good at fetching big transfer fees from China, and I remember Klopp managing to get way over the odds for some of the deadwood he inherited like Benteke, Sakho and Ibe.

It's about being in the right place at the right time though. Someone like Lo Celso might fetch a good fee given his relationship with Emery and his explots for Argentina, but it'll be a small handful of clubs who might also have other options. Whereas I can't see anyone paying for Winks or Ndombele even though they've probably been better players for us overall.

The difference being that teams actually put up the money for the players you mentioned, as they were wanted.

We clearly wanted to get rid of Lo Celso but his club of choice couldn't afford his wages, let alone the transfer fee.

jpascavitz · May 29, 2023

My hope is that this Summer is focused on just getting players out one way or another. I believe Arsenal did this when Arteta came in. It's usually followed by little/lack of exciting business but it needs to happen to get the process rolling. Cut the losses, cancel contracts, take hits on player values, loans, whatever you need to do - DO.

Poch's first Summer here the same thing happened. The only signings we made were Ben Davies, Fazio, Stambouli, Vorm, and Dier. Youth was promoted and a clear out commenced.

Sigurdsson, Sandro, Livermore, Naughton, Dawson, Holtby, Falque, Fryers, Soldado, Townsend, Paulinho, Capoue, Stambouli (lol), Fazio (lol), Chirches, Lennon, Kaboul, Adebayor, Friedel for a grand total of NINETEEN players were essentially shipped out over the calendar year from August to August. I think we need the same thing to happen and hope it coincides with a manager where you can see the attacking philosophy being installed at the very least.

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