4-1-4-1
- Thread starter olliec
- Start date
Everlasting Seconds
Well-Known Member
- Jan 9, 2014
- 14,914
- 26,616
Love the new formation. It's a great evolution of the Pochenizer (Pochettino's system). It's more flexible, more effective and more entertaining than that 4231 shit. When 4141 doesn't work, it's either because the players for various reasons aren't doing their job, (which can happen in any formation) or because the opponents have an active and better plan to stop us (which is even easier in 4231 IMO).
And in a way, it kind of did work yesterday. We drew away to a team that threw everything at us. Their strategy was to strangle our width, owning each flank of the pitch. And it worked well for them, apart from the fact that they didn't score – but neither did we. Explain to me how 4231 can be an improvement when facing a team that owns the flanks to that degree?
Pochettino is all about possession and pressing. 4141 is a natural development for a possession oriented team when the manager believes he has the players with the right thorough understanding of their individual positions. IMO, it's been tried less, but more often lead to convincing and effective results, than 4231.
The new adaption is fun and flexible, everything 4231 was supposed to be but isn't. Stick with it.
Edit: Find it funny how people were complaining about Dier and Wanyama as a pairing, then that's fixed, and now we apparently have something to fix yet again.
And in a way, it kind of did work yesterday. We drew away to a team that threw everything at us. Their strategy was to strangle our width, owning each flank of the pitch. And it worked well for them, apart from the fact that they didn't score – but neither did we. Explain to me how 4231 can be an improvement when facing a team that owns the flanks to that degree?
Pochettino is all about possession and pressing. 4141 is a natural development for a possession oriented team when the manager believes he has the players with the right thorough understanding of their individual positions. IMO, it's been tried less, but more often lead to convincing and effective results, than 4231.
The new adaption is fun and flexible, everything 4231 was supposed to be but isn't. Stick with it.
Edit: Find it funny how people were complaining about Dier and Wanyama as a pairing, then that's fixed, and now we apparently have something to fix yet again.
Last edited:
Please never say the word Pochenizer again. I dont think i've cringed that hard in a while. Thanks.Love the new formation. It's a great evolution of the Pochenizer (Pochettino's system). It's more flexible, more effective and more entertaining than that 4231 shit. When 4141 doesn't work, it's either because the players for various reasons aren't doing their job, (which can happen in any formation) or because the opponents have an active and better plan to stop us (which is even easier in 4231 IMO).
And in a way, it kind of did work yesterday. We drew away to a team that threw everything at us. Their strategy was to strangle our width, owning each flank of the pitch. And it worked well for them, apart from the fact that they didn't score – but neither did we. Explain to me how 4231 can be an improvement when facing a team that owns the flanks to that degree?
Pochettino is all about possession and pressing. 4141 is a natural development for a possession oriented team when the manager believes he has the players with the right thorough understanding of their individual positions. IMO, it's been tried less, but more often lead to convincing and effective results, than 4231.
The new adaption is fun and flexible, everything 4231 was supposed to be but isn't. Stick with it.
Edit: Find it funny how people were complaining about Dier and Wanyama as a pairing, then that's fixed, and now we apparently have something to fix yet again.
Give me a 4231 with Winks pairing if Dembele is not available.
Everlasting Seconds
Well-Known Member
- Jan 9, 2014
- 14,914
- 26,616
More than ample room for Winks in 4141 Pochenizer.
muppetman
Well-Known Member
- Jul 29, 2011
- 9,030
- 25,219
I wonder if Winks could become the deeper version of Eriksen? He can put a foot in, yet also see a pass?
STAHHHP!
DaSpurs
Well-Known Member
- Jan 20, 2013
- 11,816
- 13,655
Much of why I like it has already been said here, but I do rather like the 4-1-4-1. Takes better advantage of both Eriksen and Alli's playstyles and abilities, and provides better support for the attack that isn't so predictable. As a result, we've been much better at moving the ball through the middle, while we were excessively reliant on wide play with relatively slow players in the past.
dudu
Well-Known Member
- Jan 28, 2011
- 5,314
- 11,048
Think it took some time to adjust to the change in shape mid game.
Janssen coming off for me needed to happen though. He touched the ball 4 times in the second half and regardless of the fact it wasnt his fault necessarily he was still having no effect on the game at all.
cliff jones
Well-Known Member
- Aug 31, 2012
- 4,094
- 6,668
You conveniently forgot the fifteen after half time where we really lost our way.
danielneeds
Kick-Ass
- May 5, 2004
- 24,182
- 48,812
I think the key thing is to develop tactical flexibility and be able to change things during a game if teams are setting up to negate our shape. Sometimes bringing another midfielder deeper can actually be an attacking move because we gain greater control of midfield, sometimes not.
We have to mature as a side though and the players have to think on their feet better and become better at reading the game as a unit.
We have to mature as a side though and the players have to think on their feet better and become better at reading the game as a unit.
Bus-Conductor
SC Supporter
- Oct 19, 2004
- 39,837
- 50,713
How an earth did you draw the conclusion that we were better when we reverted to 4231 ? We were much worse. We did exactly the same away at WBA and it also made us worse there too. We were also pretty awful for the first few games of the season with the 4231. Our best performances have been with the 433/4141/41221 whatever you want to call it.
It's not just about the shape but the players Poch picks or brings on and takes off and how he applies those selections and changes.
olliec
Well-Known Member
- Jun 20, 2012
- 3,595
- 11,800
- Thread starter
- #35
My concern with 4-1-4-1 is when we play out the back and Wanyama is marked. We seem to give the ball away in sloppy areas. Anyway I know it's a work in progress so will see. I just wanted to get people's view, but obviously Poch is the mastermind and it's him I trust him.
@Bobby__Lucky
Well-Known Member
- Aug 20, 2013
- 2,933
- 3,982
Do not like it.
@Bobby__Lucky
Well-Known Member
- Aug 20, 2013
- 2,933
- 3,982
Think it was implemented in the Middlesborough game first. Saw it, didn't like it.
Leaves Wanyama incredibly exposed. I would understand it more if one or both of the full backs tucked into the space. It just leaves us very exposed. We seem to be more vunerable and should some one like to do stats I would like to see the shots against us using this system. To the eye it seems we are giving away more opportunity.
Manchester city is the only game we have looked comfortable with the system in my opinion.
It just all seems s mish mash to me. The system clearly doesn't suit Lamela nor Dembele. I think Sons best performances have been outside of this formation.
Maybe our players are not up to spec in the system, but it's not making sense to me. The lines are always too far apart with insufficient conduit bextwixt them. Teams will constantly find space in front of the defence either side of wanyama especially by sucking us in with clever counter attack play. Can see a few minimal pass goals against us this season. Would think we would be in serious trouble against a high pressing 433 with this system, or even more so a 442 diamond, especially with strikers both spinning wide pressing the full backs.
Also find it very unattractive to watch and very frustrating. Just condenses the play centrally and the double up wide is not drawing anybody out so far.
Think we've been lucky with the results with it so far, save Man city.
Middlesborough we didn't look convincing.
Monaco we looked awful at times.
City- ok I concede this one.
CSKA - Didn't look convincing.
WBA - dindnt look convincing.
We are certainly not contolling games as we did last season, and really don't look that adept creating genuine qualility chances.
Not enjoying this.
Leaves Wanyama incredibly exposed. I would understand it more if one or both of the full backs tucked into the space. It just leaves us very exposed. We seem to be more vunerable and should some one like to do stats I would like to see the shots against us using this system. To the eye it seems we are giving away more opportunity.
Manchester city is the only game we have looked comfortable with the system in my opinion.
It just all seems s mish mash to me. The system clearly doesn't suit Lamela nor Dembele. I think Sons best performances have been outside of this formation.
Maybe our players are not up to spec in the system, but it's not making sense to me. The lines are always too far apart with insufficient conduit bextwixt them. Teams will constantly find space in front of the defence either side of wanyama especially by sucking us in with clever counter attack play. Can see a few minimal pass goals against us this season. Would think we would be in serious trouble against a high pressing 433 with this system, or even more so a 442 diamond, especially with strikers both spinning wide pressing the full backs.
Also find it very unattractive to watch and very frustrating. Just condenses the play centrally and the double up wide is not drawing anybody out so far.
Think we've been lucky with the results with it so far, save Man city.
Middlesborough we didn't look convincing.
Monaco we looked awful at times.
City- ok I concede this one.
CSKA - Didn't look convincing.
WBA - dindnt look convincing.
We are certainly not contolling games as we did last season, and really don't look that adept creating genuine qualility chances.
Not enjoying this.
glacierSpurs
Well-Known Member
- Sep 28, 2013
- 16,163
- 25,473
Are we watching the same Spurs team? Against Leverkusen was probably the one and only match we looked so vulnerable this season! And it was only the 2nd half, not the entire match.. If any, I thought the halftime team talk from Leverkusen worked wonders, and also not forgetting how the prick chicharito fell at every opportunity to draw fouls to disrupt our momentum..
We are becoming a well-drilled side that any tactical decisions from Poch are definitely not thought of without trying out in training ground..
Just look at our possession and passing stats, we are definitely bossing most of our games and pass well..
4-1-4-1 allows us to be very mobile instead of having two DMs, and that was a very welcoming change from Poch IMO..
The crux of the problem for me is still us not being clinical enough in the final third and wasting too many opportunities not converted.. And of course keepers playing their best game of their lives against us, always..
We are becoming a well-drilled side that any tactical decisions from Poch are definitely not thought of without trying out in training ground..
Just look at our possession and passing stats, we are definitely bossing most of our games and pass well..
4-1-4-1 allows us to be very mobile instead of having two DMs, and that was a very welcoming change from Poch IMO..
The crux of the problem for me is still us not being clinical enough in the final third and wasting too many opportunities not converted.. And of course keepers playing their best game of their lives against us, always..
Last edited:
The shape really isn't too different from what we did last season. Looking at average positions, we would always look like a narrow 4-3-3 side with Dier deepest, Dembele and Eriksen a bit higher, Alli very close to Kane and Lamela quite narrow, but not as narrow as Alli.
Eriksen and Dembele would take turns collecting the ball from deep together with Dier, as Alli and Eriksen have been doing lately.
I think the biggest change is now is more due to the characteristics of the players that have been starting the games, as in no Dembele, but with Alli in a slightly deeper role.
Eriksen and Dembele would take turns collecting the ball from deep together with Dier, as Alli and Eriksen have been doing lately.
I think the biggest change is now is more due to the characteristics of the players that have been starting the games, as in no Dembele, but with Alli in a slightly deeper role.
