4-1-4-1

[Ribble]

Id rather an 8-2-0-0 and watch the football flow, personally

Lloris
Walker Trippier Toby CCV Verts Wimmer Davies Rose
Dier Wanyama

Somewhere in West Bromwich Tony Pulis has just popped a boner, and has no idea why.

 

[mil1lion]

Isn't it really just a temporary solution until Dembele returns to full fitness. Once he is back we'll have our true shape back.

 

[Shadydan]

Pretty sure we played this formation at times last season as well.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Think it was implemented in the Middlesborough game first. Saw it, didn't like it.

Leaves Wanyama incredibly exposed. I would understand it more if one or both of the full backs tucked into the space. It just leaves us very exposed. We seem to be more vunerable and should some one like to do stats I would like to see the shots against us using this system. To the eye it seems we are giving away more opportunity.

Manchester city is the only game we have looked comfortable with the system in my opinion.

It just all seems s mish mash to me. The system clearly doesn't suit Lamela nor Dembele. I think Sons best performances have been outside of this formation.

Maybe our players are not up to spec in the system, but it's not making sense to me. The lines are always too far apart with insufficient conduit bextwixt them. Teams will constantly find space in front of the defence either side of wanyama especially by sucking us in with clever counter attack play. Can see a few minimal pass goals against us this season. Would think we would be in serious trouble against a high pressing 433 with this system, or even more so a 442 diamond, especially with strikers both spinning wide pressing the full backs.

Also find it very unattractive to watch and very frustrating. Just condenses the play centrally and the double up wide is not drawing anybody out so far.

Think we've been lucky with the results with it so far, save Man city.

Middlesborough we didn't look convincing.

Monaco we looked awful at times.

City- ok I concede this one.

CSKA - Didn't look convincing.

WBA - dindnt look convincing.

We are certainly not contolling games as we did last season, and really don't look that adept creating genuine qualility chances.

Not enjoying this.

Disagree with your assessment.

Monaco was shit, I'll give you that. As was the 2nd half against Leverkusen.

Against Sunderland we created a tonne of chances and should have actually battered them.

First half against Middlesbrough was excellent, and the supposed loss of control in the 2nd half was overstated.

CSKA was a great away performance in a hostile stadium in the other side of Europe.

We agree that the City game was excellent.

We also created numerous great chances against West Brom.

Your statement that we 'really don't look that adept creating genuine quality chances.' is very inaccurate. We're not taking the chances, that's the problem, we're creating plenty of them. And it's been our biggest problem throughout Pochettino's reign.

Also, how one earth have we been lucky with the results? If anything, we've been unlucky, bar the Leverkusen game. We created far more than Monaco did, the Sunderland game was a battering, we should've scored more against Middlesbrough and they created virtually nothing, we were better than CSKA and City, and against West Brom we could've got 2 or 3 more.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Disagree with your assessment.

Monaco was shit, I'll give you that. As was the 2nd half against Leverkusen.

Against Sunderland we created a tonne of chances and should have actually battered them.

First half against Middlesbrough was excellent, and the supposed loss of control in the 2nd half was overstated.

CSKA was a great away performance in a hostile stadium in the other side of Europe.

We agree that the City game was excellent.

We also created numerous great chances against West Brom.

Your statement that we 'really don't look that adept creating genuine quality chances.' is very inaccurate. We're not taking the chances, that's the problem, we're creating plenty of them. And it's been our biggest problem throughout Pochettino's reign.

Also, how one earth have we been lucky with the results? If anything, we've been unlucky, bar the Leverkusen game. We created far more than Monaco did, the Sunderland game was a battering, we should've scored more against Middlesbrough and they created virtually nothing, we were better than CSKA and City, and against West Brom we could've got 2 or 3 more.

It's fine we disagree it challenges our perspective.

I didn't mention Sunderland as by memory I believe that was a 4231 game. Actually a good example of what I'm saying. This was the game that Dier was dropped to CB and Jan to left back. Wanyama and Dembele in the '2'. We controlled the game as per most of last season, 74%possesion iirc. Even then we didn't really create a lot of 'excellent' chances mainly decent moments, long shots and half chances. Against the defensive teams we still struggle to open teams up in the final third.

Point being none of the games we have played the 4141 have we controlled or dominated play or possession.

Against Middlesbrough we were so wide open with the lines and really exposed in the middle. A better team would of stamped there foot on us, if against a 433 the RWF and lWF tucked in deeper with intelligence overloading the 'wanyama' zone we would of been overrun. Yeh we had a decent half, but certainly we were not comfortable and no where near dominated the play or game or tactical battle.

We are not a team that has the nous to create excellent chances at will. More against the bigger teams and less against defensive teams. This is because big teams let us play to an extent as they are somewhat confident against us in a stand up fight. We have a long way to go to be tactically adept at breaking down 10 behind the ball.

I do consider the CSKA game and the others somewhat fortunate. CSKA had some good chances against us and we certainly did not control the game tactically. West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.

It's fine you disagree but I see what I see and that is a team that is struggling to adapt to the tactics, or a flawed system. This 4141 was a favourite of David Moist on his early days at Everton, though he used it more compact and defensive but was very effective defensively used. As a variation to cleverly suck teams out of their behind the ball mentality I'm for it. As a game plan for 90 minutes I'm really not convinced.

Let's not kid ourselves we haven't looked good this season at all save Sundeland and Man City. We are not dominating and intimidating like we were last season.

I hope that when Kane returns we revert back to business as usual it was councidental at worst that when Kane was injured we moved to this. Also Dembele being out and not game fit.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Point being none of the games we have played the 4141 have we controlled or dominated play or possession.

I'm personally not too occupied with amount of possession, I think it is far more important what we do with the ball and what we do when we don't have it than have much of the ball we have. However, your statement is widely innacurate:

vs. 'Boro: 58% possession
vs. CSKA: 66% possession
vs. WBA: 71% possession
vs. Leverkusen: 57% possession

Interestingly enough, our best game in a long time, vs. City, is the only game in which we did not dominate possession (42%).

 

[dudu]

It's fine we disagree it challenges our perspective.

I didn't mention Sunderland as by memory I believe that was a 4231 game. Actually a good example of what I'm saying. This was the game that Dier was dropped to CB and Jan to left back. Wanyama and Dembele in the '2'. We controlled the game as per most of last season, 74%possesion iirc. Even then we didn't really create a lot of 'excellent' chances mainly decent moments, long shots and half chances. Against the defensive teams we still struggle to open teams up in the final third.

Point being none of the games we have played the 4141 have we controlled or dominated play or possession.

Against Middlesbrough we were so wide open with the lines and really exposed in the middle. A better team would of stamped there foot on us, if against a 433 the RWF and lWF tucked in deeper with intelligence overloading the 'wanyama' zone we would of been overrun. Yeh we had a decent half, but certainly we were not comfortable and no where near dominated the play or game or tactical battle.

We are not a team that has the nous to create excellent chances at will. More against the bigger teams and less against defensive teams. This is because big teams let us play to an extent as they are somewhat confident against us in a stand up fight. We have a long way to go to be tactically adept at breaking down 10 behind the ball.

I do consider the CSKA game and the others somewhat fortunate. CSKA had some good chances against us and we certainly did not control the game tactically. West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.

It's fine you disagree but I see what I see and that is a team that is struggling to adapt to the tactics, or a flawed system. This 4141 was a favourite of David Moist on his early days at Everton, though he used it more compact and defensive but was very effective defensively used. As a variation to cleverly suck teams out of their behind the ball mentality I'm for it. As a game plan for 90 minutes I'm really not convinced.

Let's not kid ourselves we haven't looked good this season at all save Sundeland and Man City. We are not dominating and intimidating like we were last season.

I hope that when Kane returns we revert back to business as usual it was councidental at worst that when Kane was injured we moved to this. Also Dembele being out and not game fit.

Did you watch the first half of West Brom ? Pretty sure our possession was close to 80%. We were absolutely by far and away the better team in the first half.... even looking at the game as a whole we were far superior.

Did you watch it?

 

[THFCSPURS19]

It's fine we disagree it challenges our perspective.

I didn't mention Sunderland as by memory I believe that was a 4231 game. Actually a good example of what I'm saying. This was the game that Dier was dropped to CB and Jan to left back. Wanyama and Dembele in the '2'. We controlled the game as per most of last season, 74%possesion iirc. Even then we didn't really create a lot of 'excellent' chances mainly decent moments, long shots and half chances. Against the defensive teams we still struggle to open teams up in the final third.

Point being none of the games we have played the 4141 have we controlled or dominated play or possession.

Against Middlesbrough we were so wide open with the lines and really exposed in the middle. A better team would of stamped there foot on us, if against a 433 the RWF and lWF tucked in deeper with intelligence overloading the 'wanyama' zone we would of been overrun. Yeh we had a decent half, but certainly we were not comfortable and no where near dominated the play or game or tactical battle.

We are not a team that has the nous to create excellent chances at will. More against the bigger teams and less against defensive teams. This is because big teams let us play to an extent as they are somewhat confident against us in a stand up fight. We have a long way to go to be tactically adept at breaking down 10 behind the ball.

I do consider the CSKA game and the others somewhat fortunate. CSKA had some good chances against us and we certainly did not control the game tactically. West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.

It's fine you disagree but I see what I see and that is a team that is struggling to adapt to the tactics, or a flawed system. This 4141 was a favourite of David Moist on his early days at Everton, though he used it more compact and defensive but was very effective defensively used. As a variation to cleverly suck teams out of their behind the ball mentality I'm for it. As a game plan for 90 minutes I'm really not convinced.

Let's not kid ourselves we haven't looked good this season at all save Sundeland and Man City. We are not dominating and intimidating like we were last season.

I hope that when Kane returns we revert back to business as usual it was councidental at worst that when Kane was injured we moved to this. Also Dembele being out and not game fit.

I'll try and remember to fully reply to your post, but one thing you says stands out. 'West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.'

That's a ludicrous statement to make, and not even West Brom fans watching that game would come to that conclusion.

 

[Shadydan]

It's fine we disagree it challenges our perspective.

I didn't mention Sunderland as by memory I believe that was a 4231 game. Actually a good example of what I'm saying. This was the game that Dier was dropped to CB and Jan to left back. Wanyama and Dembele in the '2'. We controlled the game as per most of last season, 74%possesion iirc. Even then we didn't really create a lot of 'excellent' chances mainly decent moments, long shots and half chances. Against the defensive teams we still struggle to open teams up in the final third.

Point being none of the games we have played the 4141 have we controlled or dominated play or possession.

Against Middlesbrough we were so wide open with the lines and really exposed in the middle. A better team would of stamped there foot on us, if against a 433 the RWF and lWF tucked in deeper with intelligence overloading the 'wanyama' zone we would of been overrun. Yeh we had a decent half, but certainly we were not comfortable and no where near dominated the play or game or tactical battle.

We are not a team that has the nous to create excellent chances at will. More against the bigger teams and less against defensive teams. This is because big teams let us play to an extent as they are somewhat confident against us in a stand up fight. We have a long way to go to be tactically adept at breaking down 10 behind the ball.

I do consider the CSKA game and the others somewhat fortunate. CSKA had some good chances against us and we certainly did not control the game tactically. West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.

It's fine you disagree but I see what I see and that is a team that is struggling to adapt to the tactics, or a flawed system. This 4141 was a favourite of David Moist on his early days at Everton, though he used it more compact and defensive but was very effective defensively used. As a variation to cleverly suck teams out of their behind the ball mentality I'm for it. As a game plan for 90 minutes I'm really not convinced.

Let's not kid ourselves we haven't looked good this season at all save Sundeland and Man City. We are not dominating and intimidating like we were last season.

I hope that when Kane returns we revert back to business as usual it was councidental at worst that when Kane was injured we moved to this. Also Dembele being out and not game fit.

Think you've contradicted yourself a bit there fella, you said that when we played Middlesbrough the space in the lines were too big and a better team would have punished us but we played City with the same formation in a game where you acknowledged that we were superior which were.

I think the balance is good with this formation and I think it will be better once we get Kane back.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Very welcome change from Poch even though it is just a minor tweak. Wanyama has played the position well, he's decent on the ball, no Busquets but better than I thought.

 

[Cravenspurs]

Isn't it really just a temporary solution until Dembele returns to full fitness. Once he is back we'll have our true shape back.

So far the partnership of Vic and Dier/Dembele has looked anything but pedestrian. It could be down to familiarity and fitness, but I think this new formation allows us to press as a bit more.

For me and I have been beating this drum since last year, that dembele was and is best up the pitch in our style of play. If given space we see his flaws of slow build up, but when in tight spaces, he uses his pace, strength, and length to disrupt and launch counters. I believe it was against Chelsea early in the year where Dele played deep and Son and Dembele pressed the living hell out of Chelsea. For me that was one of our best performances last year.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Think you've contradicted yourself a bit there fella, you said that when we played Middlesbrough the space in the lines were too big and a better team would have punished us but we played City with the same formation in a game where you acknowledged that we were superior which were.

I think the balance is good with this formation and I think it will be better once we get Kane back.

Different game different performance, the whole team was more compact against city.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

I'm personally not too occupied with amount of possession, I think it is far more important what we do with the ball and what we do when we don't have it than have much of the ball we have. However, your statement is widely innacurate:

vs. 'Boro: 58% possession
vs. CSKA: 66% possession
vs. WBA: 71% possession
vs. Leverkusen: 57% possession

Interestingly enough, our best game in a long time, vs. City, is the only game in which we did not dominate possession (42%).

I said dominated play...and possession. 2 different things. One of the great things about last season is the way we got about teams, aggressive and hunter like. I feel this formation is more 'passive' less cause and effect from us, teams seem to be able to gain momentum.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

Did you watch the first half of West Brom ? Pretty sure our possession was close to 80%. We were absolutely by far and away the better team in the first half.... even looking at the game as a whole we were far superior.

Did you watch it?

I caught some of the first half my stream was very glitchy in the first half. But we were not looking anything like a dominant team in the second half, and a game is 2 halves after all. I've meant to go back and watch the full first 45 when I get a chance and if I remember I will come back to you. Second half we were not noticeably a better team than wba imho.

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

I'll try and remember to fully reply to your post, but one thing you says stands out. 'West Brom we were not even noticeably the better team.'

That's a ludicrous statement to make, and not even West Brom fans watching that game would come to that conclusion.

Still haven't caught an uninterrupted first 45 of this game, had a glitchy stream, but as said to the I think Dudu when I do and I remember I'll come back, but second half we were certainly not noticeably a better team imho.

 

[Shadydan]

Different game different performance, the whole team was more compact against city.

So that's evidence that the system can and has worked and when we played Man City they couldn't take advantage of the apparent spaces, not really sure what your argument is here fella?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

The 4-1-4-1 is an evolution of the 4-2-3-1 IMO. The main goals of 4-2-3-1, possession, pressing, and build from behind, become more enhanced in this shape, with an added layer of flexibility.

These are key changes from 4-2-3-1 to 4-1-4-1:

1) The central point of balance changes from two deep midfielders to one defensive midfielder. In addition, a host of other players of various attacking capabilities drift in and out of the interaction with the singular pivot and the flanks.

2) The defensive control that is forsaken by going from two to one deep lying midfielder is compensated by narrowing the gap between the FBs and the wingers. When defending, wingers don't have too long of a run to double up with the FBs. When attacking, FBs don't need to run as far to overlap with wingers.

When building from the back, one can retain creative and spatial control by using one, dynamic pivot player to cut off opponents pressing. One pass forward hits a wide player, or finds a player in the otherwise vacant centre, running into unmarked space. From that point, there are more flexible options moving forward on the pitch, stemming from added fluidity.

This system creates traps for the opponent to throw them out of balance from the beginning of possession. Either the opposition defence can stick to their system and leave unmarked players to roam around the vacant spaces, or they can abandon their structure by being lured out to cover the vacant areas. This causes an imbalance in the defensive structure that Poch’s men (mainly Son and Dele this season) can exploit.

The defensive midfielder plays a critical, singular, but two-folded role. In possession, he must utilise the midfield options ahead of him in order to build the attack. The difference between a single and double pivot (e.g. in the 4-2-3-1 system) is that the former implies more forward going passes, rather than sideways passes between the pivots. Secondly, unless a central midfielder drops into a less threatening position deeper in midfield, the defensive midfielder must always stay in a position to receive from the flanks.

It can be hard to distinguish between 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3. In 4-3-3, all you do is moving the two wingers further. However, the positional depth of the two wide players in 4-1-4-1 (when the ball is in midfield) encourages the team to use shorter passing options and build easier up the pitch. The distance between the fullbacks and their respective wingers is smaller than what you would find in a 4-3-3. This shortness of distance makes it easier for the wingers and FB to cover or over lap.

Troubleshooting Pochettino’s 4-1-4-1 so far:

Players must be keenly aware of their individual task at hand in 4-1-4-1. Let’s look at the two CMs. If they drop too deep their positioning will decrease tempo, making it easier for defenders to intercept. If they are positioned too high, the players behind them will struggle to link up and several players can becomes isolated. Balance and keen understanding is key with this formation. All players (except goalie and CBs) must move up and down pitch, and in and out of vacant spaces. So far the problem has been in reading and responding to each other's decision. Knowing when to move forward and backwards, and who is covering what space.

In theory, 4-1-41- is very fast, full of a multiplicity of combinations allowing for rapid and entertaining transitions.

 

[mill]

The 4-1-4-1 is an evolution of the 4-2-3-1 IMO. The main goals of 4-2-3-1, possession, pressing, and build from behind, become more enhanced in this shape, with an added layer of flexibility.

These are key changes from 4-2-3-1 to 4-1-4-1:

1) The central point of balance changes from two deep midfielders to one defensive midfielder. In addition, a host of other players of various attacking capabilities drift in and out of the interaction with the singular pivot and the flanks.

2) The defensive control that is forsaken by going from two to one deep lying midfielder is compensated by narrowing the gap between the FBs and the wingers. When defending, wingers don't have too long of a run to double up with the FBs. When attacking, FBs don't need to run as far to overlap with wingers.

When building from the back, one can retain creative and spatial control by using one, dynamic pivot player to cut off opponents pressing. One pass forward hits a wide player, or finds a player in the otherwise vacant centre, running into unmarked space. From that point, there are more flexible options moving forward on the pitch, stemming from added fluidity.

This system creates traps for the opponent to throw them out of balance from the beginning of possession. Either the opposition defence can stick to their system and leave unmarked players to roam around the vacant spaces, or they can abandon their structure by being lured out to cover the vacant areas. This causes an imbalance in the defensive structure that Poch’s men (mainly Son and Dele this season) can exploit.

The defensive midfielder plays a critical, singular, but two-folded role. In possession, he must utilise the midfield options ahead of him in order to build the attack. The difference between a single and double pivot (e.g. in the 4-2-3-1 system) is that the former implies more forward going passes, rather than sideways passes between the pivots. Secondly, unless a central midfielder drops into a less threatening position deeper in midfield, the defensive midfielder must always stay in a position to receive from the flanks.

It can be hard to distinguish between 4-1-4-1 and 4-3-3. In 4-3-3, all you do is moving the two wingers further. However, the positional depth of the two wide players in 4-1-4-1 (when the ball is in midfield) encourages the team to use shorter passing options and build easier up the pitch. The distance between the fullbacks and their respective wingers is smaller than what you would find in a 4-3-3. This shortness of distance makes it easier for the wingers and FB to cover or over lap.

Troubleshooting Pochettino’s 4-1-4-1 so far:

Players must be keenly aware of their individual task at hand in 4-1-4-1. Let’s look at the two CMs. If they drop too deep their positioning will decrease tempo, making it easier for defenders to intercept. If they are positioned too high, the players behind them will struggle to link up and several players can becomes isolated. Balance and keen understanding is key with this formation. All players (except goalie and CBs) must move up and down pitch, and in and out of vacant spaces. So far the problem has been in reading and responding to each other's decision. Knowing when to move forward and backwards, and who is covering what space.

In theory, 4-1-41- is very fast, full of a multiplicity of combinations allowing for rapid and entertaining transitions.

Irt your last paragraph all formations can be if played right

 

[@Bobby__Lucky]

So that's evidence that the system can and has worked and when we played Man City they couldn't take advantage of the apparent spaces, not really sure what your argument is here fella?

A broken clock is right twice a day too.

Maybe that one swallow did make a summer...

Oh no it didn't did it?

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Irt your last paragraph all formations can be if played right

That's exactly the kind of sentiment I don't agree with. Formations matter - a lot. And some formations are simply worse than others.