Are we really as bad as we think we are?

[spursfan77]

I think the crowd will take their lead from how the summer pans out. An acceptable name as manager, a couple of decent signings and i'm sure the atmosphere in the ground will be fine. Until at least half-time

Yes definitely........or until the first opposition goal goes in!
At the moment positivity feels very far away from happening though. Plus obviously we won’t have all our signings in when the season kicks off. A new manager has to set us up better and give the team more confidence though that is a must. As much as his results were up and down, I think that is what Mason tried to do and probably succeeded in actually.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

we should have finished top 3 this season with a competent manager and reached the final of European competition - the midfield needs some work and the back 4 of course but if Kane is still around then you have an outstanding forward line - a new manager with a positive approach a couple of signings things look very different

There is a lot of flapping going around at the moment

 

[Japhet]

We were remarkably close to CL qualification considering that Mourinho had us playing to our weaknesses rather than our strengths til he got booted. IMO we looked very different once Mason took over and managed to play a bit of 'front foot' football. Our wobbly defence still had some issues but they all looked like they were suffering from PTSD after what Mourinho put them through. I think we can challenge again fairly quickly if we get a manager in who can restore some of the confidence that deserted us and some of our 'basket case' players might actually look OK again in a system that suits them rather than one that has them under a microscope every time.

 

[gfbates1]

From the outside it looks like we have no direction and i think it was reflected in some of the players attitudes on the pitch which directly affected their performances. So i would say Yes

 

[Gassin's finest]

Yep.

Take out H's goals and assists, and Hugo's saves, and we'd be finishing mid table, max.

Huge summer required, and it looks like we're cocking it already.

 

[mumfordspur]

I posted up this GF/GA conundrum weeks ago but couldnt come to any conclusion.

Now however I feel if you score a good amount and let in a meagre amount and still end up 7th you are well & truly knackered.

Mason did ok but the 2 league losses were abysmal

 

[danielneeds]

We have some really good players, obviously two elite goalscorers, but the balance of the side has not been right for some time.

We find it hard to stop teams playing through us, we don’t react well to being pressed effectively, our midfield is a conundrum, and our defenders either not good enough or had their confidence wiped out be Jose.

Some smart signings could fix a lot of the problems without major surgery. But if Kane goes obviously it’s an entirely different story.

 

[Aphex]

Yes, outside of Kane and Son I see a real lack of consistent quality from everyone, including Ndombele and GLC.

It also looks like they lack fight.

 

[Serpico]

First Its all about playing as a team and being motivated. Its doesn't matter who you have if this is not in place.
Then its better players and bigger squad with depth of quality.

We have some decent players and not far off being a decent side. Unfortunately a decent side is LC or WHU and they can't compete with top 4.
Poch era we excelled with a decent side with some quality and this had to be down to him as a coach so a good coach is equally important.

Some luck is a factor as well.

 

[Legacy]

I think we're 3 players and a decent coaching staff away from having a good team. And maybe another 3-4 players away from having a good squad.

We had quite a few players last season that underperformed last season, based on what we've seen them do previously. Reguilon, Doherty, Lo Celso and Dele fall in to this category. I'd also throw in Ndombele and Bergwijn too, as I think they're capable of much higher highs than we saw last year.

A good manager should be able to raise the levels of most of those players, with Doherty and Dele being the possible exceptions as they may not fit into the manager's system.

Then we have a few players who just aren't good enough. Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Aurier, Winks, Sissoko, Lamela and Lucas all fall into this category for me. And it should be absolutely a priority to move all of these players on this summer. Possibly/probably Lo Celso and Dele too.

We also have a few young players who really need to take a big step up this year to positively contribute to the squad and replace some of the above players without us needing to spend money. Tanganga, Rodon, Sessegnon, Skipp and Parrott are in this category, possibly Foyth if he chooses to stay.

This would leave us needing a centre back, right back and right forward to give us a strong first team.

And a goalkeeper, central midfielder and a couple of attacking midfielders/forwards away from having a strong squad.

 

[dbspurs]

I have very little confidence in any of our midfielders or defenders.

Defenders

Our best centre back is Toby who is half the player he was and is also out of contract next year. Rodon looks promising. Dier and Sanchez need to be shipped out.

Our full backs are patchy at best. Doherty has been underwhelming, Serge is Serge (good ability but too prone to errors) and looks like he's leaving, Reguilon is better going forward than defending and Davies while solid is not going to pull up any trees.

We have Foyth and Sessegnon to come back but we've no idea how they'll have progressed after their loan spells and no one seems to have any idea if Tanganga is a CB or an RB.

In summary we need 2 new CB's and a new RB this summer. Left back depends on how Sessegnon and Reguilon get on next season.

Midfield

Winks and Sissoko need to be shipped out asap.

I have doubts whether Ndombele has the physicality for this league. Through the season i have come to the conclusion that he is a You Tube player who i don't believe will make it at Spurs.

Lo Celso is hit and miss. Occasionally has a great game but more often his contribution is average and he gets injured quite regularly.

Can a new coach bring back Dele's mojo. If so then he is a valuable first XI player. If not then we need to sell as he has been coasting for too long.

Hoijberg has his faults but you can't deny the attitude and we need a bit more of that in our squad which leaves Skipp who has had a great season at Norwich and who i hope gets plenty of game time next season.

In summary we need a ball playing CM who can run the game and keep us ticking over because i have doubts that Ndombele and Lo Celso can do this. I would not be adverse to selling Ndombele if we need funds to improve the squad.

Forwards

I don't think Kane will be going this summer so hopefully he and Son can have another fruitful season.

Lamela looks like he's off and Bale doesn't look like he's coming back. I would sell Lucas if we get a decent offer but he is a useful squad member so would like to keep him

That leaves Bergwijn who i feel has been marginalised by both Jose and Mason which in turn has left him lacking in confidence. I believe there is a very good player there who would benefit from a run in the team and a coach (Ten Haag??) that will show faith in him.

In summary i would bring in another wing forward, maybe 2 if Lucas leaves and/or Sessegnon hasn't progressed. If one of those can play up top as well then that would be the backup for Kane (Danny Ings???)

Summary

In

2 CB
1 RB
1 Ball Playing CM
1 WF
1 WF / CF

Out

Gazzaniga
Dier
Sanchez
Aurier
Winks
Sissoko
Lamela
Bale (loan not renewed)
Vinicius (loan not renewed)

Squad

Lloris / Hart / Whiteman
New RB / Doherty
Reguilon / Davies
New CB / New CB / Toby / Rodon / Tanganga
Hoijberg / Skipp / Ndombele / Lo Celso / Dele / New CM
Son / Bergwijn / Sessegnon / New WF
Kane / New CF-WF

 

[Spurslove]

Apologies for the long post, in answer to the question if we're a sleeping giant or a dead one on another thread....

Well, that's actually a very good question (St José Dominguez) The way I see it is like this. We've been crap for the best part of two years and the the majority of the players we have now, have got the previous two managers sacked. I think most Spurs fans wouldn't argue with that. Many of our performances have been pretty embarrassing to be honest, despite the presence of our world class strikers Kane and Son. Last season we signed seven players and people were telling us we'd had the best ever window, but most of the players we brought in, were not used or trusted enough, so virtually had no effect on our fortunes on the pitch. We dropped 23 points from winning positions, so clearly our defending was the main issue of concern.

But at the end of the season, we still came 7th. A final position many other teams below us would have died for. A place in a European competition (I know it's not exactly an elite tournament, but it's Europe just the same...)

Over the season, we scored over 100 goals (in all competitions). We built the best multi-purpose stadium in the world, and then Covid happened at the worst possible time for everyone, so no fans through the gates for a year and a half. The club (apparently) lost £200 million in revenue, something which would have completely crippled many other clubs.

Obviously, we need a major re-set. No we're not dead but we've been in a hell of a battle to finish the season where we did.

Are we dead as a club? No. I remember the season 1976/77 when we got relegated. I was one of the ones dancing on the pitch at the old White Hart Lane after we beat Leeds 4-2 in the final home game. Those mass demos were an act of defiance by the fans, sending a message out to the world that we'd be back and fighting again at the highest level very soon, and we were. The club fought back and restored our pride by winning promotion the following season.

We weren't dead then and we're not dead now but it's pretty clear to me that we need a major re-set. Fingers crossed we can bring in Fabio Patrici as a DOF who'll take charge of the recruitment process and (hopefully) allow Daniel Levy to re-focus his brilliant business energies on the non-football side of the business.

Some players need to go and some need to be brought in, but this can't be done overnight. It's a job which is going to take some time but when it's done, we're all going to be dancing again. I have that hope and excitement in my heart and I'm actually looking forward to the events at THFC over the following few weeks and I don't share the views of all the 'negativos' on here and elsewhere who have already given up. FUCK. THAT. I've re-done my signature to reflect my current feelings.

No we're not dead. We're Tottenham Hotspur Football Club and have been for nearly 150 years. This is just a minor set-back compared to many of our previous battles of the past.
.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

From the outside it looks like we have no direction and i think it was reflected in some of the players attitudes on the pitch which directly affected their performances. So i would say Yes

What direction does a football club need ? Apart from to win matches - we had a poor and misguided manager who created most of the mess we find ourselves in but win a few games its a different place

 

[13VanDerBale13]

We’re a mess on & off the pitch & that’s not even considering if Bale / Kane leaves

 

[Tucker]

Don’t want to pick on any post in particular, but I keep seeing posts like: “Without Kane, or Son, or Hugo, we’d be in trouble.”

Which on the face of it is true, but we have them, for now at least.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

It all hinges on the future of Kane. If he leaves we are in big trouble. Our history of big money striker signings is patchy at best.

I have no doubts our team was horribly mis-managed in the second half of last season. A par performance would have had us in the CL IMHO.

The problem is we had Kane and Son putting up insane numbers just to finish 7th. Take one or both out and we are putting it all in the hands of the transfer committee.

Son produced insane numbers in the first half of the season and we were top. Once his goal contributions tailed off we dropped down into a battle for 6th-10th.

 

[homer hotspur]

No. I remember the season 1976/77 when we got relegated. I was one of the ones dancing on the pitch at the old White Hart Lane after we beat Leeds 4-2 in the final home game. Those mass demos were an act of defiance by the fans, sending a message out to the world that we'd be back and fighting again at the highest level very soon, and we were. The club fought back and restored our pride by winning promotion the following season.

Your memory is letting you down. That Leeds game was the season we made a remarkable fightback to stay up, in 74/75, so you were dancing on the pitch in celebration rather than defiance

 

[Spirit of '61]

Levy is a successful property developer end of. - If he was in charge of this club for another 20 years and the trophy cabinet remained empty he wouldn't lose a night's sleep. Maintaining a pretence of competitiveness on a shoestring is his trick.. he got lucky with poch. Can't see any reasons to be cheerful for us mugs whilst this regime remains in place..

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I would go with a smaller squad with more youngsters on the bench this campaign and play a consistent 14/15 players in the league (giving more vital minutes to Tanganga, Rodon, Sessegnon, Skipp etc) and blood the academy players in the cups , and hopefully we can finish top 4 again or close to.

This will put us in a great position over the next couple of years for the squad to blossom, similar to early Poch reign where he played Bentaleb/Mason/Eriksen/Kane/ Townsend/Walker/Rose/Dier all who were fairly young.

At our peak under Poch it is was widely thought we had as good a starting XI as anyone, but not enough depth to seriously challenge for the PL title. Therefore, I don't think "a smaller squad" is a good idea. A more consistent CB pairing would be beneficial though.

Of the eight players you've listed from Poch's first season, five became core players and three didn't cut it. Naughton also played a bit that season, but didn't cut it. We missed out on CL qualification and got 5 points fewer than in the previous season.
We were much improved the following season, with Toby at CB, Dembele & Dier in CM and Son & Dele adding attacking quality/depth. Despite finishing 3rd, our points tally was lower than the season AVB got sacked. We were fortunate that all of our top 4 rivals had really awful seasons.
It wasn't until Poch's third season that our points tally was good enough for top 4 in an average PL season (was actually good enough to win the league some seasons). Can we afford to miss out on CL qualification for another two seasons (four consecutive seasons) while we rebuild, or do we need to bring in a couple of quality players in their mid/late 20s who can make an immediate impact?

We need to be mindful that Reguilon, Ndombele, Lo Celso and Bergwijn are all relatively young and inexperienced, so this limits how many inexperienced players we should add in around them. During Poch's first season, we had the likes of Kaboul, Vertonghen, Lloris, Fazio, Adebayour, Soldado, Lennon, Dembele, Paulinho and Capoue adding experience to the team. Although our starting XI was relatively young, we were able to rotate in experienced players - not just a handful of youngsters - and we used 27 different players in the league, of which 22 played 10+ PL games (a lot more than your proposed 14/15 players!).

Personally, I don't think any of Sanchez, Tanganga, Rodon, Sessegnon or Skipp are currently good enough to start for a top 4 (or "big 6") team. I would like to see them as regular starters in ECL and League Cup though.

 

[homer hotspur]

I would phrase the question slightly differently - are we as good as many of our fans thing we are? As things stood at the end of the season, the answer is emphatically NO. As several have said, we finished 7th by virtue of our world class players ( Kane , Son and latterly Bale) making the difference , generally in games against the bottom rung of teams. We had, somehow, got off to an excellent start which meant that we never really found ourselves hurtling down the league as our performances, post christmas, merited. This was similar in Poch's last full seasom where we ,somehow, managed to hold off Arsenal and Man. utd for top 4 as they totally failed to take advantage of our collapse in form.

People will point to our array of apparent talemt - Reggy, Gio, Tanguy, Lucas, Bergy, Dele, etc ( note no real defenders) but what I see there are a number of talented individuals who have no consistency and are all generally over rated because of occasional brilliance - I didn't even mention the 'Rabona king'. The other issue is that nobody ever seems to look at how other teams are improving and, generally, have as impressive squads. I would say that, without the aforementioned 3, we are probably on a par with the likes of Newcastle and Southampton. With perennial yo-yo teams Watford and Norwich returning with decent squads, I don't see 3 sub standard teams being tailed off next season so can easily see us being dragged into a bottom half scrap all season without the insurance of a healthy points total in the first dozen or so games.

If Kane , Son and, maybe (Bale) stay, we should be ok , as long as they are motivated, for top half if we add a couple of proper defenders. If we sell Kane, we should be able to buy enough quality replacements to ensure top half so it really would have to be an even worse downturn to find ourselves too concerned by relegation barring serious injury problems to the key players(cant rule that out as we were actually very lucky in this respect last season which is a concern) .
So, that is very much as we stand now. Obviously, though, we are hoping to see a very different squad start next season with the right manager in charge..................