Arsenal Vs Tottenham: Match Thread

[jezz]

I had 3 disagrees for this?
Lamela v Arsenal, Kane v Sunderland, Dier v Liverpool twice.

Just think of it as being popular

 

[Shadydan]

But attacking is half of the game, and we were shite at it on the whole. Hence negative comments about attackers being perfectly reasonable. No one's questioning the defence from what I can see, and personally I'm happy with the result.

I just think people giving any of that front four more than a 5 are off their rocker with incredibly low standards

But he's not questioning the attackers specifically, he's unhappy at our tactical approach to the match in which we fought hard and deserved to get a point out of it, that's where I have issue with his post.

 

[jolsnogross]

No mate. There was a chance earlier than that. Maybe it was before they scored their equaliser.

I agree with the vertonghen chance but maybe he could have released lamela earlier on that one.

And for the record 1) I'm not a FIFA game head and 2) poch' s
teams are based on pressure on the ball high up the pitch - ie in arsenals half so are you saying his whole philosophy is wrong?

Fair enough about the chance.

And yes, if Poch's 'philosophy' is to chase after the ball in the opponents half all the time, then it is wrong and it's a nonsense to define your playing style based on what you do when you don't have possession. I think and hope Poch is more pragmatic than dogmatic, so I'm hoping he simply delivers on the exciting attacking footy he's mentioned, while mixing up the tactics based on form, opponents, and any other number of factors at the time.

 

[Syn_13]

I had 3 disagrees for this?
Lamela v Arsenal, Kane v Sunderland, Dier v Liverpool twice.

You forgot about Townsend's fuck up against Liverpool too.

I think the Lamela and Kane ones aren't that fair. Lamela sliced the ball. I know he should do better but it's not like he was caught in possession or dilly-dallying. The ball could've spun anywhere and luck just had it ending up at a Gooner's feet. Kane was damn unlucky, not much he could've done.

Dier is a fair one. Lost Sterling for the first goal and shouldn't have gone to pull down Allen (even if the little scrote overplayed it) for the penalty. Townsend was just trying too much, as per usual.

 

[spud]

So let me get this straight...when Mourinho sets his team up to sit deep and defend with 2 banks of four at places like the Etihad, The Emirates and Anfield he's known as a tactical mastermind and lauded for having the foresight to get something out of the game and when Atletico Madrid setup exactly the same way in their games where they defend with two banks of four and let the opposition have the ball and counter Simeone gets praised to high heaven for creating a game plan to deal with the better teams, yet when Pochettino does it it's not the Spurs way and had we won it would have been a defeat? Do me a fucking favour.

Your argument is plausible apart, as far as I am concerned, from one small point: I couldn't give a flying fuck about Mourinho, Chelsea, Simeone or Atletico Madrid, but I care a great deal about Spurs. And I would prefer that we die on our feet and not live on our knees.

And finally we have a manager who is willing to change his philosophy and cater to the opposition, how many times have we gone to places like these, played open football and been picked off? Again how many times have we bemoaned the manager for not having a 'plan b', would you rather we played open football and get absolutely tanked like last season?

Again, a plausible argument apart from one small - but vitally important - point. Pochettino spent most of the match instructing his players to push up and press the goons higher up the pitch, and chewing them out when they ignored his instruction. He didn't want us to sit back defending our own half. So he may well have had a 'plan B', but it doesn't seem to have been what you think it was.

I find it astounding that any fans should moan at this performance....

Conversely, I find it astounding that so many seem to be entirely delighted with it.

 

[jolsnogross]

Lamela sliced the ball. I know he should do better but it's not like he was caught in possession or dilly-dallying. The ball could've spun anywhere and luck just had it ending up at a Gooner's foot.

It's not just the miss hit clearance in an awful position, which was pretty bad and not really bad luck in the immediate outcome, but the weird hokey-pokey dance afterward next to his team mate. Whatever he was trying to do there he should never try again.

 

[arunspurs]

Good defensive performance.
I would stick to the same defense & CM for next few games.

Lloris, Naughton, Kaboul, Jan, Rose, Capoue, Mason for next 5 PL games and build some stability.

From what I have seen, Mason & Capoue work well together ; showed even in US tour. Mason especially seems to be solving the tempo problem. He is able to dictate pace of the game. Game against Arsenal was different though, where he showed his defensive capabilities.

Stick to this 7 & change the front 4 we should do ok.

 

[Kiedis]

Any news on the Rose injury?

Starting with Davies against Soton is somewhat scary based on his form so far. And Vertonghen will probably morph into the Hulk if it's suggested that he plays there.

 

[sak11]

Fair enough about the chance.

And yes, if Poch's 'philosophy' is to chase after the ball in the opponents half all the time, then it is wrong and it's a nonsense to define your playing style based on what you do when you don't have possession. I think and hope Poch is more pragmatic than dogmatic, so I'm hoping he simply delivers on the exciting attacking footy he's mentioned, while mixing up the tactics based on form, opponents, and any other number of factors at the time.

I agree to a point. However our goal was a result of exactly the type of play he wants to implement with pressure on the ball carrier. My point was that we hardly did that.

Anyway as I said in my first post, his tactics for this match worked as we got a result.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Very pleased with that result. I was concerned throughout the first half that if we didn't score first then it was going to be very difficult for us to get back into the game. And considering the amount of possession they had, the longer the half went on the more worried I was getting. But we have some very solid defending and the frankly mercurial Lloris to thank that we went in level at the break. And after we weathered a bit of a storm we started creeping into the game.. and lets be honest, if Adebayor could just lay the bong or the spliff down for 5 mins, he may have had enough wits to get on the end of some dangerous breaks.

I think that effected the gooners more than us, because I thought we were excellent in the second half, more adventurous, and we sensed their increasing desperation, and decreasing confidence. The pressing and composure for our goal was just brilliant. And I never felt like we would lose after that. Just a huge team effort after that.

The only little niggle I'll make; and I'm a Spurs fan, I'm supposed to niggle and never be 100% satisfied... it's part of the DNA; is that we didn't take them by the throat and get a winner. Because it was there for the taking. Even after they leveled, we were still hitting them on the odd break. But there's still some of that uncertainty, a lack of confidence from the last few league games that we might fuck up, that prevented us from being totally ruthless.

But it's there, you can see it. And as such I'm really quite positive after that game, that we'll start really playing soon. Whereas the gooners will only have even more to worry about.

 

[SpursDave88]

Very pleased with that result. I was concerned throughout the first half that if we didn't score first then it was going to be very difficult for us to get back into the game. And considering the amount of possession they had, the longer the half went on the more worried I was getting. But we have some very solid defending and the frankly mercurial Lloris to thank that we went in level at the break. And after we weathered a bit of a storm we started creeping into the game.. and lets be honest, if Adebayor could just lay the bong or the spliff down for 5 mins, he may have had enough wits to get on the end of some dangerous breaks.

I think that effected the gooners more than us, because I thought we were excellent in the second half, more adventurous, and we sensed their increasing desperation, and decreasing confidence. The pressing and composure for our goal was just brilliant. And I never felt like we would lose after that. Just a huge team effort after that.

The only little niggle I'll make; and I'm a Spurs fan, I'm supposed to niggle and never be 100% satisfied... it's part of the DNA; is that we didn't take them by the throat and get a winner. Because it was there for the taking. Even after they leveled, we were still hitting them on the odd break. But there's still some of that uncertainty, a lack of confidence from the last few league games that we might fuck up, that prevented us from being totally ruthless.

But it's there, you can see it. And as such I'm really quite positive after that game, that we'll start really playing soon. Whereas the gooners will only have even more to worry about.

The problem was our final ball was poor...we took the wrong option or poorly executed the correct one almost every time...had we been more incisive with our final ball, we might have put the game beyond Arsenal early on.

 

[Shadydan]

Your argument is plausible apart, as far as I am concerned, from one small point: I couldn't give a flying fuck about Mourinho, Chelsea, Simeone or Atletico Madrid, but I care a great deal about Spurs. And I would prefer that we die on our feet and not live on our knees.

You'd prefer us to die on our feet? So I take it then you'd have preferred us to get rolled over which is what's been happening over the last season or so against the bigger sides, check this out:

Liverpool 12-0 aggregate score over 3 games
Chelsea 4-0
City 11-1 aggregate score last season
Arsenal beat us 3 times last season 1-0, 2-0, 1-0

We tried to go toe to toe with these teams by pressing and harrying them and leaving an abundance of space behind our defence, now get this: we scored 1 goal and let in 31 goals in those games, are you suggesting that we should just simply carry on in hope that one day it’ll work? Are you actually saying that you’re happy to see the team get absolutely pummelled because playing open football is the Spurs way, don’t be silly.

We're a side bereft of confidence especially against the bigger sides and we needed a performance and change in mentality like this to give us belief, no-one is hailing it as a complete performance or a tactical master class however it worked and you can bet that if we played our normal style which is to press high up the pitch then we have probably gotten another beating therefore denting our confidence yet again, but of course this is the Spurs way isn’t it?

Maybe you should give a fuck about different footballing styles and methodologies and open your mind a little, you'd probably actually realise that catering to the opposition and attempting to expose their weaknesses gets you points and in Atletico Madrid's case wins you trophies against the odds. I hate to break it to you but if you don’t have the firepower to match your opponents then you’re going to have to approach games in different ways, this is what teams have to do to counter teams who are simply better than them, this is what we’re gonna have to do for the time being to match the big boys and win trophy’s. Different tactical approaches to games is what all teams have to do and shows your versatility as a team, and at least we have a manager who knows when to change it up rather than sitting on his hands in hope his philosophy would come to fruition, that’s what the last manager was sacked for wasn’t it?

And please your OTT melodramatic post implies that we’ve been doing this all season in order to nick points on the counter, as far I can see this has happened once and in a game where it needed to be done and considering the circumstances we approached it the correct way. If we had setup the same way against QPR and West Brom I’d completely agree with you but this was against a side who have struggled against teams who have done exactly what we did on Saturday to them and it has worked.

BTW I take it you didn't like the way Harry set us up when we played Milan either because we sat back and soaked up the pressure and countered in the San Siro, the difference is that we were playing with confidence and had a better end product compared to us now but I believe that will come in time.

Again, a plausible argument apart from one small - but vitally important - point. Pochettino spent most of the match instructing his players to push up and press the goons higher up the pitch, and chewing them out when they ignored his instruction. He didn't want us to sit back defending our own half. So he may well have had a 'plan B', but it doesn't seem to have been what you think it was.

And what’s your point? We were defending too deep because the natural instinct to defend when you’re under the cosh is to drop back - He still changed from his normal tactical approach to games, did we not drop our defensive line deeper to deal with the space that Arsenal would have killed us with had we given it to them? Did we not defend with 2 banks of four and allowed them the ball and attempted to break at will? It was obviously different to how we normally approach games and how we’ve approached them under Poch this season hence the ‘Plan B’.

Conversely, I find it astounding that so many seem to be entirely delighted with it.

I’m delighted that we stopped the rot and we actually showed a bit of pride in a big match for once. I’m extremely proud of players like Kaboul, Naughton and Rose (two players that we written off last season) who earned us a point against the odds and I’m happy with Poch’s approach to the game because we showed that we CAN actually defend when we’re up against it and had it been for better decisions going forward we could have got something extra out of the game. I said before the match that win, lose or draw I just want us to put up a performance that Spurs fans can be proud of and I wanted the players to take pride in the shirt and as far as I’m concerned we did that, we got a point at the Emirates and made Arsenal look ordinary.

 

[CowInAComa]

You'd prefer us to die on our feet? So I take it then you'd have preferred us to get rolled over which is what's been happening over the last season or so against the bigger sides, check this out:

Liverpool 12-0 aggregate score over 3 games
Chelsea 4-0
City 11-1 aggregate score last season
Arsenal beat us 3 times last season 1-0, 2-0, 1-0

We tried to go toe to toe with these teams by pressing and harrying them and leaving an abundance of space behind our defence, now get this: we scored 1 goal and let in 31 goals in those games, are you suggesting that we should just simply carry on in hope that one day it’ll work? Are you actually saying that you’re happy to see the team get absolutely pummelled because playing open football is the Spurs way, don’t be silly.

We're a side bereft of confidence especially against the bigger sides and we needed a performance and change in mentality like this to give us belief, no-one is hailing it as a complete performance or a tactical master class however it worked and you can bet that if we played our normal style which is to press high up the pitch then we have probably gotten another beating therefore denting our confidence yet again, but of course this is the Spurs way isn’t it?

Maybe you should give a fuck about different footballing styles and methodologies and open your mind a little, you'd probably actually realise that catering to the opposition and attempting to expose their weaknesses gets you points and in Atletico Madrid's case wins you trophies against the odds. I hate to break it to you but if you don’t have the firepower to match your opponents then you’re going to have to approach games in different ways, this is what teams have to do to counter teams who are simply better than them, this is what we’re gonna have to do for the time being to match the big boys and win trophy’s. Different tactical approaches to games is what all teams have to do and shows your versatility as a team, and at least we have a manager who knows when to change it up rather than sitting on his hands in hope his philosophy would come to fruition, that’s what the last manager was sacked for wasn’t it?

And please your OTT melodramatic post implies that we’ve been doing this all season in order to nick points on the counter, as far I can see this has happened once and in a game where it needed to be done and considering the circumstances we approached it the correct way. If we had setup the same way against QPR and West Brom I’d completely agree with you but this was against a side who have struggled against teams who have done exactly what we did on Saturday to them and it has worked.

BTW I take it you didn't like the way Harry set us up when we played Milan either because we sat back and soaked up the pressure and countered in the San Siro, the difference is that we were playing with confidence and had a better end product compared to us now but I believe that will come in time.



And what’s your point? We were defending too deep because the natural instinct to defend when you’re under the cosh is to drop back - He still changed from his normal tactical approach to games, did we not drop our defensive line deeper to deal with the space that Arsenal would have killed us with had we given it to them? Did we not defend with 2 banks of four and allowed them the ball and attempted to break at will? It was obviously different to how we normally approach games and how we’ve approached them under Poch this season hence the ‘Plan B’.




I’m delighted that we stopped the rot and we actually showed a bit of pride in a big match for once. I’m extremely proud of players like Kaboul, Naughton and Rose (two players that we written off last season) who earned us a point against the odds and I’m happy with Poch’s approach to the game because we showed that we CAN actually defend when we’re up against it and had it been for better decisions going forward we could have got something extra out of the game. I said before the match that win, lose or draw I just want us to put up a performance that Spurs fans can be proud of and I wanted the players to take pride in the shirt and as far as I’m concerned we did that, we got a point at the Emirates and made Arsenal look ordinary.

This is a fantastic post. The result was always going to justify the means yesterday if we came out with anything approaching a postive result.

We need to repair our battered psyche first, then the football will come. Yesterday we showed a real back to the wall determined side of our game, which will do us a great deal of good.

 

[nialsy2005]

You'd prefer us to die on our feet? So I take it then you'd have preferred us to get rolled over which is what's been happening over the last season or so against the bigger sides, check this out:

Liverpool 12-0 aggregate score over 3 games
Chelsea 4-0
City 11-1 aggregate score last season
Arsenal beat us 3 times last season 1-0, 2-0, 1-0

We tried to go toe to toe with these teams by pressing and harrying them and leaving an abundance of space behind our defence, now get this: we scored 1 goal and let in 31 goals in those games, are you suggesting that we should just simply carry on in hope that one day it’ll work? Are you actually saying that you’re happy to see the team get absolutely pummelled because playing open football is the Spurs way, don’t be silly.

We're a side bereft of confidence especially against the bigger sides and we needed a performance and change in mentality like this to give us belief, no-one is hailing it as a complete performance or a tactical master class however it worked and you can bet that if we played our normal style which is to press high up the pitch then we have probably gotten another beating therefore denting our confidence yet again, but of course this is the Spurs way isn’t it?

Maybe you should give a fuck about different footballing styles and methodologies and open your mind a little, you'd probably actually realise that catering to the opposition and attempting to expose their weaknesses gets you points and in Atletico Madrid's case wins you trophies against the odds. I hate to break it to you but if you don’t have the firepower to match your opponents then you’re going to have to approach games in different ways, this is what teams have to do to counter teams who are simply better than them, this is what we’re gonna have to do for the time being to match the big boys and win trophy’s. Different tactical approaches to games is what all teams have to do and shows your versatility as a team, and at least we have a manager who knows when to change it up rather than sitting on his hands in hope his philosophy would come to fruition, that’s what the last manager was sacked for wasn’t it?

And please your OTT melodramatic post implies that we’ve been doing this all season in order to nick points on the counter, as far I can see this has happened once and in a game where it needed to be done and considering the circumstances we approached it the correct way. If we had setup the same way against QPR and West Brom I’d completely agree with you but this was against a side who have struggled against teams who have done exactly what we did on Saturday to them and it has worked.

BTW I take it you didn't like the way Harry set us up when we played Milan either because we sat back and soaked up the pressure and countered in the San Siro, the difference is that we were playing with confidence and had a better end product compared to us now but I believe that will come in time.



And what’s your point? We were defending too deep because the natural instinct to defend when you’re under the cosh is to drop back - He still changed from his normal tactical approach to games, did we not drop our defensive line deeper to deal with the space that Arsenal would have killed us with had we given it to them? Did we not defend with 2 banks of four and allowed them the ball and attempted to break at will? It was obviously different to how we normally approach games and how we’ve approached them under Poch this season hence the ‘Plan B’.




I’m delighted that we stopped the rot and we actually showed a bit of pride in a big match for once. I’m extremely proud of players like Kaboul, Naughton and Rose (two players that we written off last season) who earned us a point against the odds and I’m happy with Poch’s approach to the game because we showed that we CAN actually defend when we’re up against it and had it been for better decisions going forward we could have got something extra out of the game. I said before the match that win, lose or draw I just want us to put up a performance that Spurs fans can be proud of and I wanted the players to take pride in the shirt and as far as I’m concerned we did that, we got a point at the Emirates and made Arsenal look ordinary.

Brilliant post shady

 

[spud]

You'd prefer us to die on our feet? So I take it then you'd have preferred us to get rolled over which is what's been happening over the last season or so against the bigger sides, check this out:

Liverpool 12-0 aggregate score over 3 games
Chelsea 4-0
City 11-1 aggregate score last season
Arsenal beat us 3 times last season 1-0, 2-0, 1-0

We tried to go toe to toe with these teams by pressing and harrying them and leaving an abundance of space behind our defence, now get this: we scored 1 goal and let in 31 goals in those games, are you suggesting that we should just simply carry on in hope that one day it’ll work? Are you actually saying that you’re happy to see the team get absolutely pummelled because playing open football is the Spurs way, don’t be silly.

We're a side bereft of confidence especially against the bigger sides and we needed a performance and change in mentality like this to give us belief, no-one is hailing it as a complete performance or a tactical master class however it worked and you can bet that if we played our normal style which is to press high up the pitch then we have probably gotten another beating therefore denting our confidence yet again, but of course this is the Spurs way isn’t it?

Maybe you should give a fuck about different footballing styles and methodologies and open your mind a little, you'd probably actually realise that catering to the opposition and attempting to expose their weaknesses gets you points and in Atletico Madrid's case wins you trophies against the odds. I hate to break it to you but if you don’t have the firepower to match your opponents then you’re going to have to approach games in different ways, this is what teams have to do to counter teams who are simply better than them, this is what we’re gonna have to do for the time being to match the big boys and win trophy’s. Different tactical approaches to games is what all teams have to do and shows your versatility as a team, and at least we have a manager who knows when to change it up rather than sitting on his hands in hope his philosophy would come to fruition, that’s what the last manager was sacked for wasn’t it?

And please your OTT melodramatic post implies that we’ve been doing this all season in order to nick points on the counter, as far I can see this has happened once and in a game where it needed to be done and considering the circumstances we approached it the correct way. If we had setup the same way against QPR and West Brom I’d completely agree with you but this was against a side who have struggled against teams who have done exactly what we did on Saturday to them and it has worked.

BTW I take it you didn't like the way Harry set us up when we played Milan either because we sat back and soaked up the pressure and countered in the San Siro, the difference is that we were playing with confidence and had a better end product compared to us now but I believe that will come in time.



And what’s your point? We were defending too deep because the natural instinct to defend when you’re under the cosh is to drop back - He still changed from his normal tactical approach to games, did we not drop our defensive line deeper to deal with the space that Arsenal would have killed us with had we given it to them? Did we not defend with 2 banks of four and allowed them the ball and attempted to break at will? It was obviously different to how we normally approach games and how we’ve approached them under Poch this season hence the ‘Plan B’.




I’m delighted that we stopped the rot and we actually showed a bit of pride in a big match for once. I’m extremely proud of players like Kaboul, Naughton and Rose (two players that we written off last season) who earned us a point against the odds and I’m happy with Poch’s approach to the game because we showed that we CAN actually defend when we’re up against it and had it been for better decisions going forward we could have got something extra out of the game. I said before the match that win, lose or draw I just want us to put up a performance that Spurs fans can be proud of and I wanted the players to take pride in the shirt and as far as I’m concerned we did that, we got a point at the Emirates and made Arsenal look ordinary.

I really don't know where to start with this. There is your blanket grouping of all results against last season's top four as evidence that we should defend deep and hope for the best; even though these matches were played in a variety of different ways with different (or zero) tactical approaches by two different managers. There is the contention that our 'normal style' was to press high when we have not consistently employed it as a tactic, and the implication that this - and only this - lost us those games. There is your contention that it is natural to drop deep when you're 'under the cosh' but apparently no comprehension of the fact that we were only under the cosh because we ceded half the pitch - and the ball - to the opposition. And you ask me 'what's your point' when what I was saying about Pochettino's actions giving the lie to the assumption about his tactics was self-evident.

There are two things that amaze me about your post and those others who have lauded the way in which we played. The first is the implication that the players will have had such psychological damage from last season's results that they wouldn't have believed that they could win on saturday; thus meaning that to allow opposition possession in 75% of the pitch and defend our box was the only way that we could avoid a hiding. If that is true then we are in serious trouble as none of our players - or management team - have any balls. I don't believe that; do you?

The other is that nobody seems to have addressed what I consider to be the central issue. If, as you contend, this was a necessary tactic in order to bolster confidence against teams that we struggled to beat, then where does it end? Should it be employed every time we play them (and perhaps, by extension, others that are above us in the league) or do we at some point decide that we should actually try to beat them? When will this be? Surely the longer we go without beating them then psychologically the more difficult it becomes to do so? So should we just try to get a point against them and hope to get more points than them against the other teams? If you set out with a draw as the limit of your ambition, are you not accepting that you have reached your place in the pecking order and are unable to strive for more? Are you not settling for mediocrity? Of never winning a trophy (for you will have to win by penalty shoot-out if you play these teams in a cup) or ever again qualifying for the CL?

This is why I used the expression that I would rather we died on our feet than live on our knees. The way that we played on saturday is not only terrible to watch, it is an admission of defeat. We have given up on trying to improve; we're accepting that we can't be as good as them so we're just going to rattle around in fifth or sixth place. Unless of course another team beats us soundly a couple of times in quick succession, then we'll be hoping for draws against them and settling for seventh or eighth.....or maybe mid-table....or possibly hoping to god we get 40 points next season so we stay up.

Yes I'm taking it to extremes, but extremes is where it can take us if we start running scared of the opposition. We ran scared on saturday. I find that worrying. That so many are evidently happy that we did is beyond worrying: it's frightening.

One other thing to consider. Did we score on saturday by springing our carefully-laid trap? By launching a lightning-fast counter-attack from our own box, according to the assumed tactical plan? We did not. We scored because we denied them time and space on the ball, winning it high up the pitch and exploiting the fact that they had no time to defend against us. The very thing that you contend would have condemned us to a hiding got us the lead on the single occasion that we did it. What a shame we didn't do it more often.

 

[SpursManChris]

 

[jezz]

I really don't know where to start with this. There is your blanket grouping of all results against last season's top four as evidence that we should defend deep and hope for the best; even though these matches were played in a variety of different ways with different (or zero) tactical approaches by two different managers. There is the contention that our 'normal style' was to press high when we have not consistently employed it as a tactic, and the implication that this - and only this - lost us those games. There is your contention that it is natural to drop deep when you're 'under the cosh' but apparently no comprehension of the fact that we were only under the cosh because we ceded half the pitch - and the ball - to the opposition. And you ask me 'what's your point' when what I was saying about Pochettino's actions giving the lie to the assumption about his tactics was self-evident.

There are two things that amaze me about your post and those others who have lauded the way in which we played. The first is the implication that the players will have had such psychological damage from last season's results that they wouldn't have believed that they could win on saturday; thus meaning that to allow opposition possession in 75% of the pitch and defend our box was the only way that we could avoid a hiding. If that is true then we are in serious trouble as none of our players - or management team - have any balls. I don't believe that; do you?

The other is that nobody seems to have addressed what I consider to be the central issue. If, as you contend, this was a necessary tactic in order to bolster confidence against teams that we struggled to beat, then where does it end? Should it be employed every time we play them (and perhaps, by extension, others that are above us in the league) or do we at some point decide that we should actually try to beat them? When will this be? Surely the longer we go without beating them then psychologically the more difficult it becomes to do so? So should we just try to get a point against them and hope to get more points than them against the other teams? If you set out with a draw as the limit of your ambition, are you not accepting that you have reached your place in the pecking order and are unable to strive for more? Are you not settling for mediocrity? Of never winning a trophy (for you will have to win by penalty shoot-out if you play these teams in a cup) or ever again qualifying for the CL?

This is why I used the expression that I would rather we died on our feet than live on our knees. The way that we played on saturday is not only terrible to watch, it is an admission of defeat. We have given up on trying to improve; we're accepting that we can't be as good as them so we're just going to rattle around in fifth or sixth place. Unless of course another team beats us soundly a couple of times in quick succession, then we'll be hoping for draws against them and settling for seventh or eighth.....or maybe mid-table....or possibly hoping to god we get 40 points next season so we stay up.

Yes I'm taking it to extremes, but extremes is where it can take us if we start running scared of the opposition. We ran scared on saturday. I find that worrying. That so many are evidently happy that we did is beyond worrying: it's frightening.

One other thing to consider. Did we score on saturday by springing our carefully-laid trap? By launching a lightning-fast counter-attack from our own box, according to the assumed tactical plan? We did not. We scored because we denied them time and space on the ball, winning it high up the pitch and exploiting the fact that they had no time to defend against us. The very thing that you contend would have condemned us to a hiding got us the lead on the single occasion that we did it. What a shame we didn't do it more often.

Most top manager's consider drawing away against top team's (of course a win would be nice) and wining your home game's a minimum.

 

[dudu]

We have given up on trying to improve; we're accepting that we can't be as good as them so we're just going to rattle around in fifth or sixth place. Unless of course another team beats us soundly a couple of times in quick succession, then we'll be hoping for draws against them and settling for seventh or eighth.....or maybe mid-table....or possibly hoping to god we get 40 points next season so we stay up.

I just dont understand this bit?

Improved since when? 3 years ago? two managers ago?

Surely 1 point is an improvement on no points? Well it is for Poch anyway who has only had a few months to improve us. How quickly were you expecting him to turn us into a team that can go out away to the top 4 teams and attack/control the game tempo.

Perhaps, as a starting block..... you know...... first game away to top 4 team under Poch, you could perhaps give a tiny bit of leeway and allow for bit of a learning curve for the players. It may take more than 0 games playing in this way to get it working coherently.

Also, where are you getting this impression that we didnt think we could win? Maybe we didnt think we could in the ways you may have wanted us to play but it seemed to me that they players definitely thought we could be dangerous and hit them on the break to great effect.....because we did a number of times only to be let down by a poor choice in passing.

Also we did do it (press them higher up the pitch) towards the end of the first half.

 

[joelstinton14]

I was pleased with our performance. Defensively that is the best i seen us for ages, and it was great to compete in a big 4 game again.

I liked the way poch set us up - and i agree with other posters , for some games we need to do this. It also shows that Poch as other ideas how to set the team up - there is a plan B. We can play the spurs way when we want, but at times we need to set up differently. Chelsea do this all the time and it is something we need to accept if we want to be successful.

As for comments on Ade, personally i thought he did ok. He could have closed the space down quicker - but he held the ball up well, and also our best spell was when ade was pulling out wide , holding the ball up , and allowing chadli to run into and exploit space through the middle. I thought it worked quite well. Infuriating to watch ade is, but i thought the arsenal game wasn't really the game to vent valid frustrations with him.

I also thought poch's subs were astute, and dier, think he could be a great player for us, he just slotted in like he been playing the whole game.

 

[doncht]

+1 to that. It would be interesting though on what changes they have lined up for this.