Assessing Levy, not Ramos!

[spurs4europe]

These are all key to the points I was making in my original post. When Enic first came to the club the goals of the fans and Enic were the same. Now whilst obviously both the fans and the club would still love CL football, from a financial point of view, the CL doesn't quite hold the same draw it once did for Enic. I think the key reason Levy sacked Jol was becasue he didn't believe he could get them in the CL with the clubs current recrutiment policy. Jol himself has since said in an interview that he told Levy it was possible but they'd need to spend more money. Comolli seems to have comvince him that the squad was good enough and that with a change of coach, then they could achieve their golas. However, Ramos has come in and vindicated Jol. He needs to spend a lot of money and not just on young players who can sustain their value. The trouble is that when you buy a couple of Woodgate's you end up spending say £15 million you aren't likley to see a return on. Now the issue with this is that last year Arsenals CL revenue was only about £9 million more than we got from the UEFA Cup. So where is the incentive for Enic to invest in that way?

true, but if that turned into a sustainable source of an extra £9m a season then it becomes important, especially since we won't be spending huge amounts every season like we are now as we build a team.

furthermore, i think you have overlooked the other aspect of increased exposure to developing markets through the CL and other such revenue.

clearly if united can get away with spending up to £40-50m a season on new players then it must be worth it and the evidence doesn't seem to point in your favour otherwise we wouldn't be spending the large amounts that we spent both last season and next season, if by all accounts the itk we've been hearing lately is at all true.

 

[Banjo]

nicdic,

Thank you for understanding my point!

We got a manager, Jol (by default - when Santini, Levy's first choice - ran away) who did well.

Jol got us a 7th place, just shy of UEFA, in his first 2/3 of a season. In Jol's next two seasons Jol got us into UEFA and two fifth places in the PL.

You, nicdic, seem to think that was a fine achievement - something to praise Levy for! Fine! But having, finally, started doing well we (no Levy) sacks Jol (the manager whose achievements you praise) in a manner that humiliated Spurs.

Bulletspur,

Spurs won the CC this year. Bloody great, we are in UEFA again which is cool.

But, last time we won that, under Graham he was sacked by Levy, before a semi-final in the same competition. Ostensibly because he'd not got us above tenth place in the league!

Are you sure I'm the one who is 'fickle'?

Levy has had six managers/head coaches and three Dof since he came in in Feb 2001.

Again, may I ask 'Am I the one who his fickle'?

Rose tinted glasses seem to be on discount in N17!

 

[spurs4europe]

Better the devil you know than the one you don't

great expression and too true

 

[joey55]

of course that is correct, but if that turned into a sustainable source of an extra £9m a season then it becomes important, especially since we won't be spending huge amounts every season like we are now.

furthermore, i think you have overlooked the other aspect of increased exposure to developing markets through the CL and other such revenue.

clearly if united can get away with spending up to £40-50m a season on new players then it must be worth it.

I haven't ignored any of those points and have expanded on them both in previous posts on several occassions. It's just i can't write 1000 word essays everytime I posts. The trouble with forums is we have the same debated over and over. Back in Jan, i made a few posts and dug up some revenue figures for CL clubs. The risk to reward ratio just wouldn't be appealing to me as an investor and I can't really see why Enic would either. The intrinsic value of the club is such that it almost certainly wouldn't be worth kind of ivesmtment most likely to yield results. The trouble is now that I think a buyer is less likley to emerge than 6 months or a year ago, so it's a difficult play for Levy. The last year has certainly stung him. He's taken the hit of paying Jol off, recruited a very expensive coach and all only to ie Woodgate for £8 million.

 

[nicdic]

nicdic,

Thank you for understanding my point!

We got a manager, Jol (by default - when Santini, Levy's first choice - ran away) who did well.

Jol got us a 7th place, just shy of UEFA, in his first 2/3 of a season. In Jol's next two seasons Jol got us into UEFA and two fifth places in the PL.

You, nicdic, seem to think that was a fine achievement - something to praise Levy for! Fine! But having, finally, started doing well we (no Levy) sacks Jol (the manager whose achievements you praise) in a manner that humiliated Spurs.

I think it came down to a lot more than them saying, "Oh yeah, 5th is alright, but lets get that Juande chap, he's good." Jol had touted himself to Newcastle and Ajax whilst under contract with us, he had a shocking start to the season, and although the way in which he was sacked wasn't brilliant, it was the correct decision, and one we will be thankful for in the future I am sure. In Juande Ramos we now have one of the best managers in club football, someone who knows what it's like to win things, and hasn't lost the dressing room.

 

[Banjo]

MattyP,

I believe I said before, just because other options are dire does not mean that we have to accept the one were lumbered with. (I really do see your point though. I've never liked SGE as a coach/manager, but he and the fans at MC are being shafted).

But this does raise another issue - a bit of research and get to a new thread.



This

 

[Banjo]

nicdic,

I've heard the rumours about Jol touting himself round. No idea how true.

But if the club had lost their faith in him they should have acted in the last offseason, not after just two games of the 2007:8 season. Is that not what 'lost' the dressing room? I thought all this had been argued around and around already!

But MattP's post has reminded me of an issue I've wanted to (re) raise for some time

Let me do a little research!

 

[MattyP]

MattyP,

I believe I said before, just because other options are dire does not mean that we have to accept the one were lumbered with. (I really do see your point though. I've never liked SGE as a coach/manager, but he and the fans at MC are being shafted).

Don't get me wrong Banjo, I'm not saying Levy is blameless either, or that he is above criticism.

I just think it's a bit too easy to pin the blame on his shoulders. After all, Comolli's signings have not all come off, the coaching staff have made decisions at times that are baffling, the players have made individual mistakes that have cost us dearly, Chirpy hasn't been the same since he became evil, us fans could have got behind the team more at certain times in the season, I'm sure the goat could have done something better too.

Levy has done well at some things, not so well at others. Kinda where the whole club lies at the moment in my opinion.

 

[si_yidarmy]

players have very little conversation with board members. I remember a interview with robinson over arnesen leaving, he said something like. To be fair i only really spoke to him when i first joined spurs. He never was at training etc. So it is not going to affect the players atall.

End of the day, players perform on confidence and attitude. The manager affects both of those attributes. Not a Director of Football.

 

[Bulletspur]

Bulletspur,

Spurs won the CC this year. Bloody great, we are in UEFA again which is cool.

But, last time we won that, under Graham he was sacked by Levy, before a semi-final in the same competition. Ostensibly because he'd not got us above tenth place in the league!

Are you sure I'm the one who is 'fickle'?

Levy has had six managers/head coaches and three Dof since he came in in Feb 2001.

Again, may I ask 'Am I the one who his fickle'?

Rose tinted glasses seem to be on discount in N17!

Its obvious from your comments that you either didnt comprehend my post or really have a problem with Levy, which is your prerogative.

For me, he is a fan and also a chairman who is trying (and will get it wrong at times) but you are not going to get me start trying to put him down for the sake of starting a thread.

By the way those rose tinted glasses, they were "buy one get one free", so you can have my spare, they really do work!

 

[Banjo]

Bulletspur,

I believe I understand your posts, just don't agree.

Your comments about 'people' seeing 'us' as being fickle seems to refer to others, and indeed our own perceptions, of Spurs fans. We tend to be up and down with each game - and indeed within each game. Not unique there.

But it is not 'fickle' (your word) to try and judge a chairman after over seven years.

You say he's a fan, I've no idea if that is true - I suspect he's a businessman first and would sell Spurs for ENIC profit above all else. Neither of us could prove this one way or another - until some deal was made, or indeed not.

But my original post was that despite a very poor end to the season Ramos cannot be meaningfully judged. However, (a posh but?) Levy after seven years and a load of money (I'm reading over 43, million last summer alone) spent should be assessed or judged. (Or how much time should Levy have, Jol had less than three years!) Levy has instigated the Dof/HC system, had six managers/HCs in seven years. Plus three DoFs.

Where are we in terms of results? In '99 we won the league cup and were in UEFA. Our league position was still less than tenth. In 06 and 07 we got into UEFA, under Jol through league position (5th X 2). He is then logically sacked by Levy (and this is not anti-Ramos) and we again qualify for Europe, by winning the league cup. Our position again being less than tenth.

So after all that, most under Levy, we've gone in a bloody big circle, spent a lot of money and are pretty much where he and ENIC came in. I guess the rosetinted glasses come with free amnesia?

P.S. Bulletspur, I have no idea what you mean about me trying to get you to put Levy down 'for the sake of starting a thread'.

 

[Bulletspur]

Bulletspur,

I believe I understand your posts, just don't agree.

Your comments about 'people' seeing 'us' as being fickle seems to refer to others, and indeed our own perceptions, of Spurs fans. We tend to be up and down with each game - and indeed within each game. Not unique there.

But it is not 'fickle' (your word) to try and judge a chairman after over seven years.

You say he's a fan, I've no idea if that is true - I suspect he's a businessman first and would sell Spurs for ENIC profit above all else. Neither of us could prove this one way or another - until some deal was made, or indeed not.

But my original post was that despite a very poor end to the season Ramos cannot be meaningfully judged. However, (a posh but?) Levy after seven years and a load of money (I'm reading over 43, million last summer alone) spent should be assessed or judged. (Or how much time should Levy have, Jol had less than three years!) Levy has instigated the Dof/HC system, had six managers/HCs in seven years. Plus three DoFs.

Where are we in terms of results? In '99 we won the league cup and were in UEFA. Our league position was still less than tenth. In 06 and 07 we got into UEFA, under Jol through league position (5th X 2). He is then logically sacked by Levy (and this is not anti-Ramos) and we again qualify for Europe, by winning the league cup. Our position again being less than tenth.

So after all that, most under Levy, we've gone in a bloody big circle, spent a lot of money and are pretty much where he and ENIC came in. I guess the rosetinted glasses come with free amnesia?

P.S. Bulletspur, I have no idea what you mean about me trying to get you to put Levy down 'for the sake of starting a thread'.

At the end of the day we just have to agree that we have differing opinions.

While I am not disagreeing with your facts, I also suspect that there are quite a few unknown (to both of us) variables that have put us where we are today. I am not, and again suspect I neither are you, previ to the day to day running of THFC by Mr Levy and co, so we can only speculate and judge on the end results ie why different managers etc had to go.

Bottom line, because of this, rightly or wrongly I have to Judge Levy and the club on emotions, ie the way I see things going and the feel good factor which for me is high at this moment in time.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think it came down to a lot more than them saying, "Oh yeah, 5th is alright, but lets get that Juande chap, he's good." Jol had touted himself to Newcastle and Ajax whilst under contract with us, he had a shocking start to the season, and although the way in which he was sacked wasn't brilliant, it was the correct decision, and one we will be thankful for in the future I am sure. In Juande Ramos we now have one of the best managers in club football, someone who knows what it's like to win things, and hasn't lost the dressing room.

Have we heard Jol's side of this?

How much was our start to the season due to Ramosgate, and the effect of weeks of constant sniping and speculation in the press? Some people will airily claim that managers and players are always under pressure and that they should be able to cope with it, and that's true to an extent, but circumstances were truly exceptional. Levy has to take his share of responsibility for that. It should also be pointed out that our record over the last ten games of the season has been barely any better than over the first ten.

Who says that Jol had lost the dressing room?

 

[MattyP]

Bulletspur,
But my original post was that despite a very poor end to the season Ramos cannot be meaningfully judged. However, (a posh but?) Levy after seven years and a load of money (I'm reading over 43, million last summer alone) spent should be assessed or judged. (Or how much time should Levy have, Jol had less than three years!) Levy has instigated the Dof/HC system, had six managers/HCs in seven years. Plus three DoFs.

Where are we in terms of results? In '99 we won the league cup and were in UEFA. Our league position was still less than tenth. In 06 and 07 we got into UEFA, under Jol through league position (5th X 2). He is then logically sacked by Levy (and this is not anti-Ramos) and we again qualify for Europe, by winning the league cup. Our position again being less than tenth.

So after all that, most under Levy, we've gone in a bloody big circle, spent a lot of money and are pretty much where he and ENIC came in. I guess the rosetinted glasses come with free amnesia?
quote]

Banjo, is it not the Chairmans job to providen funds as his manager/DoF sees fit in order to strengthen the team, whilst unless you are Ridsdale/Abramovich not jeopardising the long term future of the club by taking us into massive debt by having an unrealistic business model.

No-one can argue that Levy hasn't done this (whether it is also in the best interest of Enic is another debate).

Levy has also progressed a new training facility, supposed to one of the best around, and has been looking at every option on the stadium issue. No, it hasn't beem solved yet, but as he is not in charge of Transport for London, Haringay council or the financial markets, those three things have contributed to the delays.

If you don't like the way he handled the Jol / Ramos situation, fair enough I agree (I think even he agrees), if you don't like the DoF set up, again fair enough, but I'd rather have a businessman run the business in Levy and a football man in Arnesen, Comolli, A.N.Other running the football side.

 

[nidge]

I think it came down to a lot more than them saying, "Oh yeah, 5th is alright, but lets get that Juande chap, he's good." Jol had touted himself to Newcastle and Ajax whilst under contract with us, he had a shocking start to the season, and although the way in which he was sacked wasn't brilliant, it was the correct decision, and one we will be thankful for in the future I am sure. In Juande Ramos we now have one of the best managers in club football, someone who knows what it's like to win things, and hasn't lost the dressing room.

According to ITK, so we take that as known fact now do we? I also heard that it was Newcastle and Ajax that approached Jol and that he in turn told the board that both clubs had approached him.

 

[gibbs131]

He has done a breathtakingly excellent job at making funds available.

He has done an equally good job of wasting the money he has generated.

Can't wait for the CRUNCH. The only time I have been glad I can't get to games because the prices are going to be HILARIOUS. They are already gouging the fans via the new shirts/pressing.

Leeds sized problems are a very large possibility. Regardless if we start to win thing because prize money isn't that much when you put it up against the money we are throwing at success.

 

[steve]

The world isn't black and white. Levy's business acumen appears to be very very good indeed (from the very little I know about it). But he is not beyond criticism because of this. He HAS made mistakes as I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge (privately if not publicly) and they mostly seem to be with the football side of the business.

Replacing Graham just before the FA Cup Semi v the A*se was a mistake. We only lost 2-1 I know but the reality was it could've and should've been 5 or 6. It was embarrassing and with Graham in charge we may have got a result. The timing was awful and he should've waited until the end of the season.
Hoddle didn't do the business (a shame as we all wanted him too) but the sacking after 6 games (or whatever it was) was a balls up, especially after giving him the money to invest. Do it close season or not at all. The wait for a new man was also badly handled and extended out far longer than needed, while Pleat led us to safety but no more.
Arnesen was a good appointment, as was Jol, however Santini was not. Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing but again the handling of the Jol affair was awful and did nothing for our reputation as a club. Again, do it close season or leave him be. Ramos (hopefully) appears to be a good appointment, only time will tell. As for Comolli I have an open mind as I don't know enough about what he is doing.

I'm don't think Levy is sh*t. Far from it I think he is very good for this club and I'm very glad he is here. BUT let's not forget that he has made mistakes and he isn't perfect or beyond criticism. If we do then we don't present a very rounded view of what's been happening at the club.