Assessing Levy, not Ramos!

[Banjo]

Joey, Kendall,

You've both talked about 'experience'. As an observation - about life in general - I agree, it's invaluable.

A learning curve. How long for Levy? Seven years is a hell-of-a time in both politics and business.

What are the targets, goals, criteria?

 

[Kendall]

Well I think he's done a damn good job in 7 years. I mean it hasn't been 7 years of failings has it? we're currently what? 12th in the richest clubs list? despite spending more on players in recent years than ever before. Sure this season hasn't be fantastic, but we're been making progress and I'm happy with that. I can't even begin to moan about Levy when we could have a Thaksin, an Ashley or even a Ridsdale running us.

It's just picking holes.

 

[eddiebailey]

For what it is worth I posted this in another thread:

I think we are lucky to have ENIC as owners, but it seems to me that Daniel Levy has been on a learning curve. There is nothing wrong with that, we all learn from our mistakes, and in retrospect there is much that all of us would have done differently in our jobs. Being fair there is also much he has undoubtedly got right. But it is getting to the stage where in the next few years he needs to deliver, in terms of results on the pitch certainly, but also in terms of addressing the issue of stadium capacity, where progress has been similarly disappointing. I could be wrong, as I have never met the man, but events have left me with an impression of Levy as a man who hesitates, letting others take the initiative, rather than standing firm by his own decisions. It is time now to set a course and stick by it.

 

[joey55]

Joey, Kendall,

You've both talked about 'experience'. As an observation - about life in general - I agree, it's invaluable.

A learning curve. How long for Levy? Seven years is a hell-of-a time in both politics and business.

What are the targets, goals, criteria?

These are all key to the points I was making in my original post. When Enic first came to the club the goals of the fans and Enic were the same. Now whilst obviously both the fans and the club would still love CL football, from a financial point of view, the CL doesn't quite hold the same draw it once did for Enic. I think the key reason Levy sacked Jol was becasue he didn't believe he could get them in the CL with the clubs current recrutiment policy. Jol himself has since said in an interview that he told Levy it was possible but they'd need to spend more money. Comolli seems to have comvince him that the squad was good enough and that with a change of coach, then they could achieve their golas. However, Ramos has come in and vindicated Jol. He needs to spend a lot of money and not just on young players who can sustain their value. The trouble is that when you buy a couple of Woodgate's you end up spending say £15 million you aren't likley to see a return on. Now the issue with this is that last year Arsenals CL revenue was only about £9 million more than we got from the UEFA Cup. So where is the incentive for Enic to invest in that way?

 

[Banjo]

Kendall,

Sound business might mean the 12th richest club in the world. Great for ENIC.

However, over seven years our results have not reflected that.

The persistent arguement is that 'we could have done a lot worse than that'. True.

But we could have done better - even with modest expectations.

 

[joey55]

Well I think he's done a damn good job in 7 years. I mean it hasn't been 7 years of failings has it? we're currently what? 12th in the richest clubs list? despite spending more on players in recent years than ever before. Sure this season hasn't be fantastic, but we're been making progress and I'm happy with that. I can't even begin to moan about Levy when we could have a Thaksin, an Ashley or even a Ridsdale running us.

It's just picking holes.

Interestingly though, if you take out the period under BMJ, what are you left with? It's no better then under Sugar and comparitively we spent as much then. When Santini left we were in 14th. Had the season started when BMJ took over, we'd have finished 4th. that run of form and good football is what created the buzz around WHL. That is when the Enic good times started. Jol did it with the same players as the coach Levy insisted on choosing (Santini) couldn't. We then had 2 5th place finshes, but even then our squad was nowhere near as good as we thought it was. The idea of a team with Dawson, Robbo, Lee, Stalteri, Mido and a past it Davids in it, coming so close to CL football should have been a joke. Our over achievment under BMJ has in many ways put a bit of a gloss on Enics time at the club (not to mention spoiled alot of our fans who showe dno gratitude and were quick to condem during the bad times). Enic may well find they sacked their biggest asset, under the impression it was that asset which was holding them back. I think this season since Ramos took over has given us a more realistic view of the true strength of our squad and it isn't as good as the last few years have suggested.

 

[rez9000]

Surely the fact that you are worried about him leaving after making us a success and top power in the best league in the world is testiment to just how good he is?

For me, it's not so much his ability as how his activities will affect the club. The frightening thing for me is if he's building the club up only to sell us when our value goes up. The dangerous aspect of that scenario is if we end up with a Shiti-twat-ra or that idiot at Anfield who'll think he knows how to run the club better than the management.

I didn't really say it in my original post, and I should have. Levy has been a pretty good chairman in certain aspects. His financial management I feel is excellent and he's kept the club on a sound footing (I'm not going to get into the too-much-money-in-football debate as it really needs a thread of it's own).

I'd be glad if joey's analysis is the truth in that his mistakes have been learnt from. When BMJ was sacked, there was an article in the Guardian (I think), that said that we'd gone through something like 6 managers in the seven years under his stewerdship. That doesn't add up to stability, and I hope he's learnt from the big boys that only continuity breeds success. Look at the Top Bastards. In the 7 years that Levy has been at Spurs, they have had 7 managers combined, one more than us. This I think was the basis for Banjo's thread. Levy needs to learn patience and also to ensure that he doesn't get drawn into any personal political machinations.

You're right, Kendall. I hope he stays, but I'm still suspicious and will be for some time. I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

[nicdic]

If you look at the at the business side, Levy has been brilliant for us, we're the model for most premiership clubs, and we have no debt, everything is paid for by money coming in. There was a great piece on FTL about it lately, which was very interesting, i'll try and find it.

 

[nicdic]

I am a fan first and a shareholder second and I do have a very long memory and I would need one to remember the 47 years I have supported the Club.


I have invested in the Club since flotation and if you want to live in fantasy land whereby football club owners only want glory and cups as opposed to shareholder value then blame Scholar for floating the Club – at that point in time THFC PLC became an investment opportunity for anybody that wanted to take a punt or “people like me” that wanted to be part of the Club.


It was also “people like me” that the Club came to in 1996 for money so that the Paxton Road stand had a new upper tier added which included the second Jumbotron screen - I paid out a substantial amount (as did many others) to invest in the Club so that others could enjoy the experience of supporting the Club. It was also “people like me” that the Club came to again for more money when they needed to buy players and it was “people like me” that again paid out so that we could start to be a force again.


When Levy came in he found that the whole Company was in disarray and after he had put his own money into buying the Club he set about making the Company a stand alone Company – he has turned it around in spectacular fashion and in the last 5 years we are only 2nd to Chelsea in transfer spending – we are also the richest Club in Europe that does not play regular CL football – who do you think did all that?


How many PL Clubs actually make a profit? Do you know? I do.


How many PL clubs can boast of the excellent negotiated financial deals we have done for transfers? – all of which are paid out of cash flow – no capital funding – no Sugar Daddy.


Why do you think that other PL Chairmen hold THFC up as the ideal business model for a football club? Because we are nice people? Or is it because they appreciate just how much Levy has done for the Club – without him we would have been in deep financial problems and “people like me” would have lost all of our investments.


Why shouldn't’t he take a profit from his hard work to make us so financially secure? Has he milked the Club in any way?


Of course he has to think of the shareholders value first and foremost because, as a Chairman of a PLC, BY LAW he has to do so. Or do you not get that bit?


Of course their strategy will benefit Lewis, Levy, Tavistock Group but that is what Investment Companies do.


Do you understand what an Investment Company is all about? Do you honestly believe that all they think about is “trophies and glory”? Is that why they invest in Companies? It would make for a wonderful AGM – “well shareholders I am pleased to announce that we have won some trophies but in doing so I have made the Company bankrupt – thank you all for your donations and for your shareholdings which are now worthless”. Do you not get that bit either?


The outcome of their individual success is that the Club wins in every way as it is now capable of standing on its own feet without need of capital injection – the Club was on its knees when he came in.


He will ensure (as best he can) that the new owners will have the best interest of THFC at heart and the only way that can be done is by ensuring that a new stadium does not saddle the Club with unsustainable debt – we are profitable now with a low capacity stadium and that is due to Levy.


If you want to disassociate a football club with business then all you have to do is find a wealthy partner and pool your resources and offer Lewis and Levy anything over 218p per ordinary share for the fully diluted share capital and they will gladly sell to you.

It's a good read.

 

[Bulletspur]

Banjo, as someone said you are picking holes. You can sit and nit pick until the cows come home, that is easy to do. What is hard in your case it seems is acknowledge the fact that Levy has brought some success, yes success and feel good factor back to the club and while heading for more of the same and to improvements, thats what is what matters to me the average everyday supporter.

I am not an entrepreneur running a multi million business, so I am not going to try to second guess the constraints, the competition, the behaviour of the stock market and other financial institutions, while being accountable to Ernic and other share holders, that he has to work under, while trying his damndest to sput Spurs back on the map.

Yes he is not God, so mistakes will happen but judge him on how he rectifies them.

No wonder people criticise us as being fickle, we have a chairman who I know is the envy of many a club out there and yet you are not satisfied. Wake up amd smell the roses.

 

[Banjo]

Yes nicdic,

The pro Levy arguement is always 'he's a good businessman', but on the football side he's been poor. How much time does he need? How many of us have had seven years to show we're good at our jobs?

I'm glad Rez9000 seems to recognize that our revolving door management is down to Levy and that he (Levy) needs to come of the "me now" thing. Rome was not built in a day. My doubts are centred on Levy/ENIC not being able to wait that long.

 

[nicdic]

I'm not sure how he's bad in football terms. Two 5th place finishes, constant investment, what else do you want.

 

[Bulletspur]

It's a good read.

Yes, very good read. It confirms what I said in my previous post as I had not read it or any of the other posts before retorting to Banjo's opening post.

 

[talkshowhost86]

My only problem with Levy is his obsession with a director of football system that doesn't seem to work desperately well and doesn't appear to be used by anyone else with any success in England.

The whole DoF system was designed, in Levy's words, to prevent wholesale changes being needed and to promote continuity. That simply hasn't happened at all as proved by the fact that we're on the cusp of yet another massive squad overhaul.

If this summer doesn't prove successful then Levy needs to look at whether the system needs to be scrapped.

 

[truespur]

levy is doing a cracking job

 

[Kendall]

I am gobsmacked Levy is even coming into question considering what has gone on at several football clubs recently.

He has gone for the DOF system because by his own admission he shouldn't be interfering with the football side of things. what do you want? an interferring chairman?

 

[bryanabutler]

Kendall,

I'm not sure that DC was the one who secured Ramos, I suspect Levy was more involved.

I am not sure that Ramos is 'one of the top managers in the world'. He's made a good fist of it so far at WHL, and of course at Seville, for two seasons. Before that his record was poor and always moving on. Well that would fit Levy's profile too I suppose!

Bango. Agree with what you have said, was it Levy or Comedy who brought Ramos to the Spurs i would say 4mil a year did the trick. How would M J have done this year if he had not been undermined ,and been allowed to buy Hutton, Gunter,Woodgate,Gilberto. I will add lets give judgement on Ramos, this time next season.P/S Was it D/L who got rid of G/G just before the semi/final of the cup

 

[joey55]

i think the trouble with that post is that it isn't anything new. It's all stuff that was relevent before this season, when in general Levy recieved unilateral praise. There was vey little anti Levy or Enic sentiment back then. I personally couldn't praise them enough and for many of the reasons mentioned in that post. However, many of the recent problems we've had can be attributed to Enic and the important question is are these issue's because Enic and the club (in a football sense) as compatable as they once were? I keep reading praise for the work Enic have done and I've prasied them highly myself, but until someoone can show me some numbers that suggest it is a good idea for Enic to make the kind of investmenet we need, I'll be sceptical of our future under them. Let's not lose sight of the fact that all the good they did for us, was good for them.

 

[Bulletspur]

i think the trouble with that post is that it isn't anything new. It's all stuff that was relevent before this season, when in general Levy recieved unilateral praise. There was vey little anti Levy or Enic sentiment back then. I personally couldn't praise them enough and for many of the reasons mentioned in that post. However, many of the recent problems we've had can be attributed to Enic and the important question is are these issue's because Enic and the club (in a football sense) as compatable as they once were? I keep reading praise for the work Enic have done and I've prasied them highly myself, but until someoone can show me some numbers that suggest it is a good idea for Enic to make the kind of investmenet we need, I'll be sceptical of our future under them. Let's not lose sight of the fact that all the good they did for us, was good for them.

Joey I agree and I can imagine that most wont argue with that but that doesnt mean that Daniel Levy is a bad chairman as the original post would suggest.

At the end of the day whether or not it be Enic's, Spurs or the both of their interest that he has at heart, Spurs will benefit IMO.

 

[MattyP]

Banjo, which one of these would you rather have as chairman compared to Levy:

Abramovich
Gillett
Hicks
Shinawatra
Ashley
Ridsdale
Bjorgolfur Gudmundsson

Better the devil you know, I would take none of the above compared to Levy. There may be better chairman out there (just out of interest name me one who has been as good as Levy over a consistent period of time), but there are a hell of a lot worse.