Bale's diving

[TaoistMonkey]

Having just read the full interview with the player who fouled Bale, where he says he DID clip him, and that it WAS NOT a dive, and where he apologises to his own team mates for the foul, where does that leave the people who have so vehemently accused Bale of diving? Clearly these people have it very wrong. Are they going to question themselves and ask themselves how they could have got it so wrong? Are they going to think twice before making similar accusations in the future, or are they simply going to continue to worship at the altar of their own ignorance for ever more?

Do you have a linky for that?

 

[StartingPrice]

Absolutely Bear, why some can't see this baffles the life out of me.

For God sake it wasn't so long that Harry was saying he was more interested in keeping his hair style in place than getting stuck in...or something along those lines.

Bale just needs to toughen up a bit.

Strangely, I agree with this.
Just to clarify: I agree totally that sometimes he is a bit of a big girlies blouse who needs to stop worrying about his barnet*, that he goes down too easily at times and that sometimes he flat out dives. What I disagree with is that he should have been penalised in the Villa game as I think he had legitimate cause to anticipate a dangerous challenge and, therefore, to take evasive action but didn't in any way afterwards indicate that he wanted a free-kick, probably because he knew he wasn't entitled to one

*In Gareth's defence, however, I should point out that none of us actually know what it is like to be stuck in front of several tens of thousands of enemies ridiculing you and calling you a monkey for ninety minutes at 18 or 19 YO

Your assertion that that is what I am saying is distorting my argument, but I understand that you are doing so because the main tenet of yours is that Bale isn't necessarily cheating as he has taken evasive action. That he has acted in the way that he has in order to avoid potentially serious injury from a late challenge.

I have seen (as you probably have) just about every minute that Bale has played in a Spurs shirt. I can recall seeing him take 'evasive action' on only two occasions. Both were last season: at home to Liverpool and at Everton. By 'evasive action' I mean action that is obviously not part of the momentum of his normal movement. action such as jumping out of the way of an opponent; of changing direction (either laterally or vertically) in order to avoid contact. Putting himself into a position where no contact is made.

What I have seen him do on numerous occasions - and what I saw him do yesterday - is collapse into an anticipated challenge; is to stop running and tuck his leg under him so that he flops to the floor. This isn't in any way 'evasive', as he leaves his legsexactly where they would be hit should a challenge materialise. Had Guzan not pulled out of the challenge yesterday, he would have whacked Bale. Bale doesn't 'dive' in that he doesn't launch himself into the air. He collapses into the challenge to make it look as though he has been fouled even though he has not been. It usually looks as though he has been fouled because he is so good at it. Yesterday it looked like what it was - cheating - because no challenge was made.

Much has also been made of the fact that he didn't appeal. Why would he? There was no contact and if he appealed the world would know he was cheating and he would risk a yellow card. By getting up without any kind of appeal it might look as though he had stumbled and convince the ref not to book him. It worked.

Sorry, but that doesn't quite make sense. If he would have been whacked if Guzan hadn't pulled out, it isn't logical to assume he collapses into the challenge to make it look as though he has been fouled. It does make sense to believe that he thought Guzan was going to make contact and sought to avoid serious injury. If he collapses into the challenge and Guzan doesn't pull out, he has still been whacked, yes - and therefore you have to show that he knew that Guzan was going to pull out. I believe that is impossible to prove and also highly improbable. Besides, as I have reiterated in this thread, already, my contention wasn't that he went down a tad easily, or that he doesn't wimp out a bit too easily (he does), but that it was wrong to say he should have been booked for diving. Anyone who said that was, IMVHO, totally wrong - you can't book players for cheating because they seek to avoid serious injury and you suspect that they may have hoped for a free-kick as well - especially when you can't even prove that, in this instance, he knew Guzan was going to pull out of the challenge. Next you'll be saying it is okay to beat a DJ up because you thought he was going to hit you...


And, as Nic has explained, he is doing that to avoid the potential of serious injury. You (generically) need to remember that pace that the game, and him in particular, are going - I think it is perfectly reasonable of a player to seek to avoid serious injury, especially one like Gareth who has clearly been targeted and from the type of challenge that if the leg is left planted can result in horrific injury.

The thing I struggle with is this: in the past I have been as prepared to slate him for over-fussing about his barnet, and, this is the vital point, for diving/going over too easily. And yet in this instance, when I point out that IMHO he was trying to minimize the effects of a potential clattering and didn't protest, pretend that contact had been made or claim a free-kick, I am accused of being blinded because he is a Spurs player and I have tinted glasses on. How the hell can I be blinded or wearing Spurs tinted glasses if I have previously said Yup, he dived? It doesn't actually make any sense. And what concerns me is that I truly believe he is being excoriated for evading/minimizing a clattering, is always going at speed and doesn't get much protection from refs, to the point he is being compared with Suarez who is a serial offender, who goes over pretending contact at walking pace and has been shown on camera making a vicious potentially career ending foul on an oppos player and then rolling around clutching his head when his head wasn't touched. It feels like a witch-hunt.

 

[spud]

Sorry, but that doesn't quite make sense. If he would have been whacked if Guzan hadn't pulled out, it isn't logical to assume he collapses into the challenge to make it look as though he has been fouled. It does make sense to believe that he thought Guzan was going to make contact and sought to avoid serious injury. If he collapses into the challenge and Guzan doesn't pull out, he has still been whacked, yes - and therefore you have to show that he knew that Guzan was going to pull out. I believe that is impossible to prove and also highly improbable. Besides, as I have reiterated in this thread, already, my contention wasn't that he went down a tad easily, or that he doesn't wimp out a bit too easily (he does), but that it was wrong to say he should have been booked for diving. Anyone who said that was, IMVHO, totally wrong - you can't book players for cheating because they seek to avoid serious injury and you suspect that they may have hoped for a free-kick as well - especially when you can't even prove that, in this instance, he knew Guzan was going to pull out of the challenge. Next you'll be saying it is okay to beat a DJ up because you thought he was going to hit you...

I get the feeling that one of us hasn't understood the other, so I'm going to try to state more clearly what I mean.

If he would have been whacked if Guzan hadn't pulled out, it isn't logical to assume he collapses into the challenge to make it look as though he has been fouled.

Yes it is. If Guzan hadn't pulled out, there would have been contact. It would have looked as though the contact caused Bale to fall, and - as has happened in the past - a foul would probably have been given.

If he collapses into the challenge and Guzan doesn't pull out, he has still been whacked, yes - and therefore you have to show that he knew that Guzan was going to pull out.

No you don't. He does not vacate the area where he would have been hit. He did not know that Guzan would pull out - how could he? He anticipates the contact and falls to make it appear that when the contact is made he is fouled.

you can't book players for cheating because they seek to avoid serious injury and you suspect that they may have hoped for a free-kick as well

I agree. As I said previously, this isn't what I'm saying. I am saying that he did not evade anything, and if he was trying to avoid injury he would have either carried on running or jumped out of the way of Guzan. By simply falling to the turf he kept himself in a place where he would be hit. He wasn't 'seeking to avoid serious injury'; he wasn't even seeking to avoid contact. So while I agree with your point, it simply doesn't apply in this instance. The only thing that he was seeking was a free kick resulting from the contact that he was anticipating.

Incidentally, I don't subscribe to the theory that Bale is a 'wimp' or 'pussy'. So he used to fiddle with his hair; so what? I've never seen him shirk a challenge or back down from physical contact apart from the two occasions that I mentioned previously. I think his balls are as big as the next footballer's, and I think that he is a serial offender in collapsing into challenges - inviting contact, not avoiding it - to make it look as though he has been fouled.

I'm done on this SP. It looks as though we might have to agree to differ. I agree with your 'serious injury' point and would love to agree that it applies here. Unfortunately, for the reasons that I have mentioned, it simply doesn't.

 

[Ironskullll]

Do you have a linky for that?

The link's in here.... http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...de-contact-with-wales-star-gareth-bale.91256/

 

[hybridsoldier]

The link's in here.... http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/ind...de-contact-with-wales-star-gareth-bale.91256/

Have to admit I thought it was a dive when I saw it...bet we won't see that article on the back pages any time soon.

 

[MightyModric]

"After his two-goal performance Coleman believed Bale could go down in legend alongside the likes of other Welsh greats Ryan Giggs and John Charles.
"I never saw John Charles. My dad said he was something special," added Coleman.
"Giggsy was something special - I always say he is the best player I ever played with.
"Baley is young and obviously he is getting a lot of attention and he deserves because he is a great player.
"Baley is certainly going to go down as a Welsh legend.
"He has not peaked yet. He is an amazing player.""
Baley? Really?

 

[TottenhamLegend]

Baley

 

[kazzah9]

Bay leaf?

 

[StartingPrice]

Baley

THIEF! I suggested we call Bale Baley a few years ago, it's mine, I want royalties

1) Yes it is. If Guzan hadn't pulled out, there would have been contact. It would have looked as though the contact caused Bale to fall, and - as has happened in the past - a foul would probably have been given.


2) No you don't. He does not vacate the area where he would have been hit. He did not know that Guzan would pull out - how could he? He anticipates the contact and falls to make it appear that when the contact is made he is fouled.


3) I agree. As I said previously, this isn't what I'm saying. I am saying that he did not evade anything, and if he was trying to avoid injury he would have either carried on running or jumped out of the way of Guzan. By simply falling to the turf he kept himself in a place where he would be hit. He wasn't 'seeking to avoid serious injury'; he wasn't even seeking to avoid contact. So while I agree with your point, it simply doesn't apply in this instance. The only thing that he was seeking was a free kick resulting from the contact that he was anticipating.

4) Incidentally, I don't subscribe to the theory that Bale is a 'wimp' or 'pussy'. So he used to fiddle with his hair; so what? I've never seen him shirk a challenge or back down from physical contact apart from the two occasions that I mentioned previously. I think his balls are as big as the next footballer's, and I think that he is a serial offender in collapsing into challenges - inviting contact, not avoiding it - to make it look as though he has been fouled.

5) I'm done on this SP. It looks as though we might have to agree to differ. I agree with your 'serious injury' point and would love to agree that it applies here. Unfortunately, for the reasons that I have mentioned, it simply doesn't.

1) No. If Guzan hadn't pulled out the contact would have caused Bale to fall, it wouldn't have looked like it caused him to fall.

2) Sorry, still is illogical. If he doesn't know that Guzan would pull out how would he be making it appear as though contact was made? He wouldn't. He would have been clattered. So it doesn't make sense to say that he didn't know that Guzan would pull out he would be expecting to get clattered and not expected to not get clattered.

3) Yes, but this is the crux of the issue. As i pointed out, re the Agger non-challenge at Anfield last season, he could have run out of the way but that would have meant losing control of the ball and jogging off the pitch. Likewise, against Villa he could have made an evasive running action, but it would almost certainly have involved losing control of the ball. So are the referees going to penalise opposition players for making it look like they are going to clatter him, but then pull out? No...they aren't protecting him when he is clattered half the time! And that is the point. I have stated several times that what he did wasn't good, just that it was the least bad option, and I still believe that. The day the refs start penalising the likes of Agger for making a deliberate stamping motion studs up at knee height towards Bale, before pulling back, then I will say Bale should just trot out of the way.
And this is the point that is getting lost - as with Agger, Guzan made a motion with his foot. bale is running at pace, he has every reason to believe that unless he makes some kind of evasion he will get clattered. If he does what he did, which makes absolutely certain that he won't have a standing leg, he gets slagged for diving. If he tamely jogs out of the way he is going to endlessly be out of possession - and I am sure you would be happy with that. If he carries on until the gets clattered he is playing Russian roulette.

4) I was being slightly flippant.

5) That's fair enough. I disagree, again, as above - but we could be going at this for ever and a day

 

[spud]

Much as I would like to reply to all of your points, SP, I said I wouldn't. As you say, we could be going at this forever. I can't resist this though:

1) No. If Guzan hadn't pulled out the contact would have caused Bale to fall, it wouldn't have looked like it caused him to fall.

We both agree that Bale fell without contact; and we both agree that he can't have known that there wouldn't be any contact. So if Guzan had followed through, and there had been contact, how could that contact have caused Bale - who was already falling - to fall?

 

[$hoguN]

SP Bale was certain Guzan was coming out to clear and threw himself in a manner that if Guzan hadn't stopped would have got him wrongly sent off. Bale could have tried to hurdle the incoming kick or jump out of the way but did not. He threw himself forward like he had been kicked and took a sneaky look behind him to see if he could claim for it. It was poor from a great player, let's hope he learns from it.

This is ofcourse is in stark contrast to the pen he got for Wales where the player clearly catches his back foot as he is running at speed, almost touch tackling him, sending Bale hurtling forward.

 

[mk_spur]

in my day if a player (any player) threw themselves to the floor with no contact that was perceived as diving, not trying to avoid injury or evading a challenge. Anyone that says that they havent cringed once or twice at some of gareth's antics over the last couple of years obviously has a very different interpretation of the rules than me. Not that he is alone its becoming a football problem in general and i hope they start clamping down on it.

 

[stemark44]

Bale has dived a few times in the past couple of seasons and it's something I really hate to see in any player but especially our own.
He is getting a reputation for it and his advisors really need to tell him to cut it out.
I think it reflects badly on our club and I would drop him and fine him everytime he did it.
It's a pretty simple thing to eradicate in the game but as usual the powers that be haven't a clue what they are doing and haven't got the balls to resolve it.

 

[StartingPrice]

Baley

THIEF! I suggested we call Bale Baley a few years ago, it's mine, I want royalties

1) Yes it is. If Guzan hadn't pulled out, there would have been contact. It would have looked as though the contact caused Bale to fall, and - as has happened in the past - a foul would probably have been given.


2) No you don't. He does not vacate the area where he would have been hit. He did not know that Guzan would pull out - how could he? He anticipates the contact and falls to make it appear that when the contact is made he is fouled.


3) I agree. As I said previously, this isn't what I'm saying. I am saying that he did not evade anything, and if he was trying to avoid injury he would have either carried on running or jumped out of the way of Guzan. By simply falling to the turf he kept himself in a place where he would be hit. He wasn't 'seeking to avoid serious injury'; he wasn't even seeking to avoid contact. So while I agree with your point, it simply doesn't apply in this instance. The only thing that he was seeking was a free kick resulting from the contact that he was anticipating.

4) Incidentally, I don't subscribe to the theory that Bale is a 'wimp' or 'pussy'. So he used to fiddle with his hair; so what? I've never seen him shirk a challenge or back down from physical contact apart from the two occasions that I mentioned previously. I think his balls are as big as the next footballer's, and I think that he is a serial offender in collapsing into challenges - inviting contact, not avoiding it - to make it look as though he has been fouled.

5) I'm done on this SP. It looks as though we might have to agree to differ. I agree with your 'serious injury' point and would love to agree that it applies here. Unfortunately, for the reasons that I have mentioned, it simply doesn't.

1) No. If Guzan hadn't pulled out the contact would have caused Bale to fall, it wouldn't have looked like it caused him to fall. The fact that he was off his feet was to prevent that clattering making contact with a standing leg - I thought Nic had already explained that. Or are you suggesting that if Guzman had followed through that the clattering would only have caused him to fall if he had left a standing leg there to risk serious injury with? The opening link in the causal chain was Guzman making to clatter Bale, /of.

2) Sorry, still is illogical. If he doesn't know that Guzan would pull out how would he be making it appear as though contact was made? He wouldn't. He would have been clattered. So it doesn't make sense to say that he didn't know that Guzan would pull out he would be expecting to get clattered and not expected to not get clattered.

3) Yes, but this is the crux of the issue. As i pointed out, re the Agger non-challenge at Anfield last season, he could have run out of the way but that would have meant losing control of the ball and jogging off the pitch. Likewise, against Villa he could have made an evasive running action, but it would almost certainly have involved losing control of the ball. So are the referees going to penalise opposition players for making it look like they are going to clatter him, but then pull out? No...they aren't protecting him when he is clattered half the time! And that is the point. I have stated several times that what he did wasn't good, just that it was the least bad option, and I still believe that. The day the refs start penalising the likes of Agger for making a deliberate stamping motion studs up at knee height towards Bale, before pulling back, then I will say Bale should just trot out of the way.
And this is the point that is getting lost - as with Agger, Guzan made a motion with his foot. bale is running at pace, he has every reason to believe that unless he makes some kind of evasion he will get clattered. If he does what he did, which makes absolutely certain that he won't have a standing leg, he gets slagged for diving. If he tamely jogs out of the way he is going to endlessly be out of possession - and I am sure you would be happy with that. If he carries on until the gets clattered he is playing Russian roulette.

4) I was being slightly flippant.

5) That's fair enough. I disagree, again, as above - but we could be going at this for ever and a day

 

[Ionman34]

As the OP on this thread, thought i should comment again.

I dont think he is anything like Suarez, and I appreciate that he doesnt do the rolling round, shouting at the ref, waving imaginary cards thing - if he did I really would dislike him.

I just think he goes to ground far too easily and too often. A lot of people defend this by saying he is trying to avoid being clattered, but if that was the case surely he would actually jump out of the way rather than drag his toes along the floor, which actually puts his legs in more danger!

I didnt start the thread to start some kind of witch hunt, I just fin this is the one part of his game that frustrates me and is a bit of a blot on his reputation

I wonder if there would be this kind of diversity in opinion if Jake Livermore was the subject.

 

[StartingPrice]

I wonder if there would be this kind of diversity in opinion if Jake Livermore was the subject.

Not from me, it wouldn't matter which of our players, or, indeed, which of the oppos players* we were talking about.




*This does not apply to Gooner scumbag fecks who should all feck off and die...or summit

 

[Harry_Snatch]

I cannot believe what the fuck i am reading here

Modern football. sorry.

 

[Damian99]

Modern football. sorry.

Even todays football is a contact sport, the day it becomes anything other than that, i will have to hang myself(BC will probably be onto the powers that be, as we speak).

 

[Harry_Snatch]

Even todays football is a contact sport, the day it becomes anything other than that, i will have to hang myself(BC will probably be onto the powers that be, as we speak).

Rugby is a contact sport. Football is nominally a contact sport but if a player has a value of 50m how much contact is he or his club really likely to covet?
There are plenty of non contact sports that have loads more contact than football.

 

[Damian99]

Rugby is a contact sport. Football is nominally a contact sport but if a player has a value of 50m how much contact is he or his club really likely to covet?
There are plenty of non contact sports that have loads more contact than football.

I'm leaving now before i start to even annoy myself, cheers.