Bielsa 3331 formation

yusrisafri

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#63
Of course that's not what I'm talking about.When we played 4 at back ,dier would drop in when CB split.This is totally different,he's playing like at base of an almost diamond.
Well we were already playing with back 3 so there was no point for dier to drop back
 

coys200

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Thread starter #64
Sissoko is so frustrating,he has the physical attributes to be a viera ,even if his touch and passing improved to a moderate level he could be outstanding.i wonder how much is confidence and how much just pure lack of ability.
 

lukespurs7

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#65
I wouldn't want Sissoko anywhere near a traditional CM3, he's hardly ever played as a proper CM in either a CM2 or CM3. At Toulouse they played a 4141 diamond mostly with him mostly on the right or tip of the diamond e.g.:

RB-------CB-----------CB--------LB
Capoue

Didot


Sissoko--------------------------Tabanou


Sissoko

Striker

Even then it was always more a case of him picking up the ball and just powering forwards. His intelligence and technique are just so poor I wouldn't want him anywhere near any proper discernible "midfield".


If you look at the heat map I posted, we got away with him there, and it's fair to say, we had some degree of success, because he effectively played a hybrid role, half CM3 half AM3:

TA----------------DS--------------JV

Dier
Trippier------------------------------------Davies
Sissoko------------------Eriksen
Alli
Kane
To be clear, I wouldn't want him anywhere in any team, I just really do not like watching players like him, he has no real intelligence, terrible technique, no finesse, he's just a powerful athlete, but if he's going to play any where I guess this is about right, or ideally in the wide right/left of the front 3 in a 433, where you get him the ball and he just powers directly at defenders into the box.



He's had 2 pretty good games now and agree technically not great but he worries teams because of his physicality and ability to get beyond teams. I think he certainly can still be of value to us.
 
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#66
He's had 2 pretty good games now and agree technically not great but he worries teams because of his physicality and ability to get beyond teams. I think he certainly can still be of value to us.
I don't really agree. I don't think he worried anyone, Eriksen, Davies, Tripper, Alli and Kane did most of the worrying. I should think Sissoko's one dimensional bulldozing was the least worrying aspect of what happened Saturday.
 

lol

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#67
Sissoko is so frustrating,he has the physical attributes to be a viera ,even if his touch and passing improved to a moderate level he could be outstanding.i wonder how much is confidence and how much just pure lack of ability.
hes the ultimate jack of all trades kind of player. hes like a poor man's milner, which is a fucking good option off the bench. just not a starter for me
 

lukespurs7

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#68
I don't really agree. I don't think he worried anyone, Eriksen, Davies, Tripper, Alli and Kane did most of the worrying. I should think Sissoko's one dimensional bulldozing was the least worrying aspect of what happened Saturday.
Not being rude but serious Q, have ever you played football to a good level? I can tell you that players playing against him won't enjoy it one bit, if all 11 of our players are like Eriksen/Trippier etc, (creative and lightweight) there is a way to deal with that and it actually becomes a bit predictable, if you add to that one or two players like Sissoko with more physicality and strength who make more direct forward runs on and off the ball and who hassle strongly when the opponents have the ball I can tell you now it certainly has its place and can be effective. Sure we can all agree Eriksen, Alli etc are better players technically and mentally than Sissoko but he offers something different which they don't and if we can get him to keep playing to the level he did against Everton which 95% of pundits and fans will agree was a very reasonable level then he will be very useful this season for us and especially until we sign a Zaha Type winger forward player who has pace and unpredictability.
 
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#69
Not being rude but serious Q, have ever you played football to a good level? I can tell you that players playing against him won't enjoy it one bit, if all 11 of or players are like Eriksen/Trippier etc, (creative and lightweight) there is a way to deal with that and it actually becomes a bit predictable, if you add to that one or two players like Sissoko with more physicality and strength who make more direct forward runs on and off the ball and who hassle strongly when the opponents have the ball I can tell you now it certainly has its place and can be effective. Sure we can all agree Eriksen, Alli etc are better players technically and mentally than Sissoko but he offers something different which they don't and if we can get him to keep playing to the level he did against Everton which 95% of pundits and fans will agree was a very reasonable level then he will be very useful this season for us and especially until we sign a Zara Type winger forward player who has pace and unpredictability.
Thanks for the insight.

Doesn't that kind of powerful physicality only actually scare people when the guy remembers to take the ball with him though ? Genuine question because I only discovered football last Wednesday.
 
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LexingtonSpurs

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#70
Interesting conversation - but it does fit with some of the ITK from this summer - suggesting that Dembele might find himself playing further up the pitch this season at time.
 

Trix

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#72
Its fairly obvious to me we don't really have a rigid formation at all. We transition between multiple different systems throughout most games depending on where the ball is and where abouts on the field of play the players are. It's one of the reasons MP likes to keep the young players inside the system rather than loan them out IMO, as he wants them to learn and understand how to play in his more fluid philosophy.
 
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spursfan77

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#73
Its fairly obvious to me we don't really have a rigid formation at all. We transition between multiple different systems throughout most games depending on where the ball is and where abouts on the field of play the ball is. It's one of the reasons MP likes to keep the young players inside the system rather than loan them out IMO, as he wants them to learn and understand how to play in his more fluid philosophy.
Yep. We change formation so much in a game, sometimes last season it seemed like we were showing off doing it some games when it wasn't necessary.
 

Japhet

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#74
I think you are definitely more right than wrong, it pretty much was a 3331. We can argue all day about what it was at various phases of play, 3511, 31411 etc etc, in the match thread I just referred to it as a CM3 format, but on reflection I'm pretty sure this was some generic version of a 3331.



Agree with much of that but not all. I think @coys200 is pretty much right, it was closest to a 3331. I know heat maps don't tell the whole truth, and this isn't conclusive proof but yesterday's kind of backs up the theory:

View attachment 32465


I get very much what you were saying, without the ball it definitely became a 3511, with Sissoko and Eriksen dropping back but as a default with the ball I'd say it was a 3331.


The beautiful thing about the way we play now is that the whole team is becoming increasingly fluid and determining what configuration we are using is becoming more and more irrelevant. We have midfielders who can drop into the back line, wing backs who are a main source of attacking threat and players like Dele and Eriksen that other teams simply can't pick up. We have Kane who can drop back into midfield if we decide to throw on Llorente as an old school striker. The latest addition to this is Sanchez in the back 3 who will, IMO, allow Toby and Verts to bring the ball out from the back more and contribute more in midfield. It reminds me in some ways of the Dutch 'Total Football' but with less positional rigidity.








But that's what @coys200 is saying. The Dier dropping back thing only happened when we played 2CB systems, with Dier in CM. The difference this season is big, as we have switched from a cm2 system to a cm3 system, which tactically is massively different. And we've now done it in a 2CB system (Chelsea) and 3CB system (Everton).

The massive tactical difference is, in a 2CM system, in a proactive team (like we are) both CM's have to pivot and do all things in varying degrees. In the three system you just need a central insurance man being more disciplined and one dimensional and two pivoting either side who can be more progressive, helping you to overload from deeper, harder to pick up positions.
 
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#75
Its fairly obvious to me we don't really have a rigid formation at all. We transition between multiple different systems throughout most games depending on where the ball is and where abouts on the field of play the players are. It's one of the reasons MP likes to keep the young players inside the system rather than loan them out IMO, as he wants them to learn and understand how to play in his more fluid philosophy.
That's only as right or wrong as it is for most reasonably well coached teams though isn't it ? They/we all clearly have default starting structures but as football is fluid they morph only to return to that structure by default when the ball is lost high up. Like all teams that default can be altered by tactical subs.

We definitely do start games with a default structure, and maintain that "without ball" structure throughout. Where we might be different is that we have on occasion switched structures mid game without changing personnel, and then even more occasionally switched back or changed again with a tactical sub.

The other difference, which is most pleasing to me, is after his whole first year of sticking religiously to 4231, Poch has now become one of the most tactically diverse coaches around. We have played 3 or 4 different structures in 4 games.
 
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GetSpurredOn

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#76
Its fairly obvious to me we don't really have a rigid formation at all. We transition between multiple different systems throughout most games depending on where the ball is and where abouts on the field of play the players are. It's one of the reasons MP likes to keep the young players inside the system rather than loan them out IMO, as he wants them to learn and understand how to play in his more fluid philosophy.
I assume this explains his favour of players versed in playing a number of positions, so the team can flex and change whilst out the pitch, without the need for changing personnel from the bench.
Both Toby and Jan can play centrally or wider, Dier we know of his versatility. Eriksen has been seen playing as No10, or deeper as a CM, likewise Dembele and Alli could rove between CM or AM. Wanyama can play DM or cover CB, as I expect Foyth to do in reverse.
Looking at the U23's, the positional fluidity is there too.

Lloris
Aurier, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Rose
Dier, Dembele
Eriksen, Alli, Son
Kane

Lloris
Alderweireld, Dier, Vertonghen
Aurier, Eriksen, Dembele, Rose
Alli, Son
Kane

Lloris
Alderweireld, Dier, Vertonghen
Aurier, Dembele, Rose
Eriksen, Alli, Son
Kane
Three not entirely unfeasible formations using the same players. Last one may be a stretch with Dembele as the designated DM, but you get the drift. So long as all our players are switched on, the ability to be so flexible would absolutely flummox opposition teams.
 
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heelspurs

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#77
That's only as right or wrong as it is for most reasonably well coached teams though isn't it ? They/we all clearly have default starting structures but as football is fluid they morph only to return to that structure by default when the ball is lost high up. Like all teams that default can be altered by tactical subs.

We definitely do start games with a default structure, and maintain that "without ball" structure throughout. Where we might be different is that we have on occasion switched structures mid game without changing personnel, and then even more occasionally switched back or changed again with a tactical sub.

The other difference, which is most pleasing to me, is after his whole first year of sticking religiously to 4231, has now become one of the most tactically diverse coaches around. We have played 3 or 4 different structures in 4 games.
I always thought that this was because he was instilling concepts and frameworks into the team. As such he had to work from a common frame of reference with the players. Had he not this project may have gone tits up like the De Boer Total Croydon (h/t b ronay) project. That is why I figured last year we would have had the 3 ATB formation from the start of the season as a default in-game switch in the evolution of the team. I have always hoped and thought (with no real data to support it other than the connection to Bielsa) that we would move toward the 3331.
 

RichieS

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#78
Did Sampaoli's Chile side still utilise this system? If so then I look forward to us adapting to it further!
 

coys200

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Thread starter #79
Dembele is starting to become a worry for me against top class opponents.his game is all about keeping the ball and controlling the game.But he simply can't do it against high pressing quick teams.im not really sure solution in CM maybe dier/wanyama and just try to disrupt opposition and stay solid and let wing backs and front 3 do the damage.Just for the big games where we will face intense pressure.
 
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