Bielsa 3331 formation

heelspurs

Supporter of Serge; Dier is dead to me
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3,147
#42
I'm fairly sure Koeman didn't know what was going on tbh. Evertons midfield couldn't get close.
This was what I was going to say in reply to an earlier post. If Koeman knew what was going on then why did they come right out and concede in 47 secs? He had not a clue.
 

Univarn

Lost. Probably Not Worth Finding.
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#44
agree. technically its a slightly more complicated version of the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1
TBF this is Pep's dream formation. 11 individually gifted players talented enough to cover the entire pitch and win matches regardless of how he puts them together... and basically what he had during his time with Barca.
 

voxy28

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3,180
#45
some comments from Ben Pearce:

With Victor Wanyama out injured, Pochettino was short of central midfielders and he took the unusual decision to play with only one – Eric Dier.

It was assumed before kick-off that Moussa Sissoko would join the England international in the middle, but in fact the Frenchman spent most of his time alongside Christian Eriksen and Dele Alli in an attacking midfield three.

With Spurs playing three at the back and using wing-backs, their formation was essentially 5-1-3-1 out of possession and 3-3-3-1 with the ball.


Well this underlines Koeman being clueless......:p
 
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#46
I don't think Aurier and Rose would have been any better yesterday than Davies and Trippier (and I've not been a huge fan of Davies generally). I think Rose has become better while injured in everyone's mind. He's still a pretty wasteful player. That ball by Davies for Kane was as good as any I've seen Rose play. Wish we'd have bought Sessegnon, he'd have been the bollocks in this system after some developing.
Think their pace will add another dimension to attacking play....and likewise safer defensively against better teams
 

DEFchenkOE

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#47
I think Bielsa is more suited to international football where the tournaments are short and sharp.

Implementing his methods over a long season is difficult as the way his teams play is so demanding. I think we have seen that with Poch as well while he was at saints and the first few seasons with us we seemed to tail off a bit in the last few months of the season. But last season we finished really strong so hopefully that's a sign of things to come.

Bielsa is a revolutionary coach no doubt just batshit crazy at the same time.
 

spids

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#48
I

But that's what @coys200 is saying. The Dier dropping back thing only happened when we played 2CB systems, with Dier in CM. The difference this season is big, as we have switched from a cm2 system to a cm3 system, which tactically is massively different. And we've now done it in a 2CB system (Chelsea) and 3CB system (Everton).

The massive tactical difference is, in a 2CM system, in a proactive team (like we are) both CM's have to pivot and do all things in varying degrees. In the three system you just need a central insurance man being more disciplined and one dimensional and two pivoting either side who can be more progressive, helping you to overload from deeper, harder to pick up positions.
My point is that we largely played the 3CB system for the majority of the last season when Wanyama was in DCM and Dier at RCB, especially the 2nd half of the season. So it's wasn't a new revelation unveiled for the first time.
 
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#49
My point is that we largely played the 3CB system for the majority of the last season when Wanyama was in DCM and Dier at RCB, especially the 2nd half of the season. So it's wasn't a new revelation unveiled for the first time.
No, playing/starting a 3cm system is completely new this season, which is what the OP is about.
 

yido_number1

Spurs supporter, unlike some.
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#50
My point is that we largely played the 3CB system for the majority of the last season when Wanyama was in DCM and Dier at RCB, especially the 2nd half of the season. So it's wasn't a new revelation unveiled for the first time.
Nobody is talking about the defence it's mainly changing away from the midfield 2 of Dembele and Wanyama playing together to relying on one full time CM in Dier on this occasion. The defensive positions in a back 3 have been the same on many occasions and until this game you could always rely on it being a combo of Dembele/Winks/Dier Wanyama.
 

mpickard2087

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#51
I'll believe we switch to more games where we play a cm3, or more specifically the one holding/pivot player and the others with more freedom/fluidity to their roles, when I see it. Poch was saying at about this time last year how he saw things evolving when he was playing a 4-1-4-1, as soon as everyone was fit it was always (well almost, there was a game vs. Hull for example where we played reasonably similar to the game at the weekend) back to the norm.
 
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#52
I'll believe we switch to more games where we play a cm3, or more specifically the one holding/pivot player and the others with more freedom/fluidity to their roles, when I see it. Poch was saying at about this time last year how he saw things evolving when he was playing a 4-1-4-1, as soon as everyone was fit it was always (well almost, there was a game vs. Hull for example where we played reasonably similar to the game at the weekend) back to the norm.

The thing that gives me hope is that this was the second time in 4 games that we have distinctly played some kind of 3cm system in 4 games. The irony is, against Chelsea it was way too risk averse with Dier/Dembele/Wanyama as the 3, against Everton he went a little too far the other way IMO, with Dier/Eriksen/Sissoko. And the results were very predictable, against Chelsea our tempo was non existent, our play was laborious, against Everton it was Hail Mary chaos with Eriksen and Sissoko bombing on, we overloaded forward areas and created numerous situations but left ourselves very exposed at times, luckily Everton weren't Chelsea.

I like the concept, I think it's tactically a very viable system that could really suit us, but he's got the get the balance right for the right occasion. It's just a huge shame that potentially the perfect player for this system isn't popular with POch and has been packed away to Villa.
 

alex3

tottenham till i die
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#53
Would love to see

Lloris

Toby Sanchez Vertonghen

Aurier Wanyama Rose
Eriksen Barkley
Ali
Kane
 

stevenqoz

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2,622
#55
Played 361 with my school side six years ago:) Three big skillful centre-backs....six small rotatable ball players and one beast of a striker who led the line on his own. Almost a Dutch total football approach in the side....winners as well. I think thing that some people are missing with Poch at Spurs is his insistence that our squad are all willing to play in a variety of formations and work hard doing it. The players we have moved on are instructive in all this. Townsend, Chadli, Jansen all failed to tick a few 'willingness' boxes for the coach. Even Walker clearly fell out will Poch was it over the role he was required to play.
 

mpickard2087

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#57
The thing that gives me hope is that this was the second time in 4 games that we have distinctly played some kind of 3cm system in 4 games. The irony is, against Chelsea it was way too risk averse with Dier/Dembele/Wanyama as the 3, against Everton he went a little too far the other way IMO, with Dier/Eriksen/Sissoko. And the results were very predictable, against Chelsea our tempo was non existent, our play was laborious, against Everton it was Hail Mary chaos with Eriksen and Sissoko bombing on, we overloaded forward areas and created numerous situations but left ourselves very exposed at times, luckily Everton weren't Chelsea.

I like the concept, I think it's tactically a very viable system that could really suit us, but he's got the get the balance right for the right occasion. It's just a huge shame that potentially the perfect player for this system isn't popular with POch and has been packed away to Villa.
I think Chelsea was just total risk averse, ultra safe selections, I wouldn't read anything into that.

Agree about Onomah, I would like him at the club still.

I agree partially with what you are saying on the Everton game, I don't think the cm3 was perfect but it was quite effective and at least on paper had a bit of balance to it - one anchor, one ball player, one runner - it offered a bit of everything. It also put players in positions where they can be more effective. I think you agree with all this, but Dier is more effective just sitting and screening in a cm3 than the cm2 where he needs to be more mobile, and I said before he even signed that Sissoko, to get anything out of him, is a cm3 player who goes box-to-box - it only took a year for the manager to realise this. I'm not saying they are the best options or ones I would pick, but if you are going to play them I'd hope they are played in roles/midfields that suit them from now on.
 
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#59
If we do persist with the three cm system, with one anchor, one playmaker and one runner, we ought finally see the best of Winks on those occasions where Eriksen doesn't play.
 
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#60
I think Chelsea was just total risk averse, ultra safe selections, I wouldn't read anything into that.

Agree about Onomah, I would like him at the club still.

I agree partially with what you are saying on the Everton game, I don't think the cm3 was perfect but it was quite effective and at least on paper had a bit of balance to it - one anchor, one ball player, one runner - it offered a bit of everything. It also put players in positions where they can be more effective. I think you agree with all this, but Dier is more effective just sitting and screening in a cm3 than the cm2 where he needs to be more mobile, and I said before he even signed that Sissoko, to get anything out of him, is a cm3 player who goes box-to-box - it only took a year for the manager to realise this. I'm not saying they are the best options or ones I would pick, but if you are going to play them I'd hope they are played in roles/midfields that suit them from now on.

I wouldn't want Sissoko anywhere near a traditional CM3, he's hardly ever played as a proper CM in either a CM2 or CM3. At Toulouse they played a 4141 diamond mostly with him mostly on the right or tip of the diamond e.g.:

RB-------CB-----------CB--------LB
Capoue

Didot


Sissoko--------------------------Tabanou


Sissoko

Striker

Even then it was always more a case of him picking up the ball and just powering forwards. His intelligence and technique are just so poor I wouldn't want him anywhere near any proper discernible "midfield".


If you look at the heat map I posted, we got away with him there, and it's fair to say, we had some degree of success, because he effectively played a hybrid role, half CM3 half AM3:

TA----------------DS--------------JV

Dier
Trippier------------------------------------Davies
Sissoko------------------Eriksen
Alli
Kane
To be clear, I wouldn't want him anywhere in any team, I just really do not like watching players like him, he has no real intelligence, terrible technique, no finesse, he's just a powerful athlete, but if he's going to play any where I guess this is about right, or ideally in the wide right/left of the front 3 in a 433, where you get him the ball and he just powers directly at defenders into the box.



 
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