Match Threads Burnley Vs Spurs

[Trix]

To be honest I think it was more system failure for us, than individual error. Pretty sure Romero (or whoever was the "last man" on the end of our defensive line) was just doing his instruction and standing where he was supposed to. After a couple of set pieces where the ball had gone there, for the goal if you look he is actually preoccupied by that point with Mee and inching over that way, suggesting he knows he should really go out to him, but obviously was torn between that and "the system". In the end he's only really halfway, and in the process of trying to get across loses the flight of the ball, and........

I don't know whether it was something Burnley saw in our set piece defending and planned for it, or their players called it on the fly during the game, but we didn't respond. We had two warnings, then the goal, and then even the scramble to go 2-0 up the front post flick on was met yet again by Mee arriving at the back post unmarked. I think that's pretty disappointing really, top level sport is full of fine margins and small marginal gains you have to manage. Where Burnley were getting the upper hand, we did nothing about it. As I said last night in a post, expect a bit more from Conte - or any other professional football manager to be honest - in stuff like this. For me near the top of the list for why football managers get paid the big bucks is to be able to notice detail and react to small/minute things in games. If me in my armchair can see a problem and see something needs to be done, one of the professionals in the dugout should definitely have also.



Also having seen the goal again this morning, for how far and high that ball travels relative to where it lands.... Where the fuck is our goalkeeper?

I don't really blame the keeper tbh. The wind was a nightmare and made it extremely difficult to predict it's flight path.

 

[wadewill]

When the weather is rough the football needs to be effective . Stick it in the box and see what happens.

I have to disagree with this, its playing right into their hands and is exactly how they want us to attack them. They are too effective at dealing with it

The problem we had, as I mentioned earlier is they were not worried about the ball going out to our useless full backs

 

[PLTuck]

I don't really blame the keeper tbh. The wind was a nightmare and made it extremely difficult to predict it's flight path.

I find it very odd that people are so wedded to the idea that Romero is untouchable that they will blame the keeper over the man marking the scorer. Jesus wept. Had it been Sanchez marking Mee you can guarantee he'd be getting pelters and the usual suspects would be never wanting to see him play again.

Mee wanted it more than Romero did. End of discussion.

 

[Trix]

I find it very odd that people are so wedded to the idea that Romero is untouchable that they will blame the keeper over the man marking the scorer. Jesus wept. Had it been Sanchez marking Mee you can guarantee he'd be getting pelters and the usual suspects would be never wanting to see him play again.

Mee wanted it more than Romero did. End of discussion.

Not sure that's what it was. The conditions were atrocious, and the wind was ridiculously unpredictable. In those conditions it's always harder to defend crosses than it is to attack them. I don't really have much of an issue with conceding set piece goals in those conditions, especially against teams that are geared up to exploit set pieces anyway. Focusing on the goal or the individuals involved in the goal is pointless tbh. That is not why we lost.

 

[PLTuck]

Not sure that's what it was. The conditions were atrocious, and the wind was ridiculously unpredictable. In those conditions it's always harder to defend crosses than it is to attack them. I don't really have much of an issue with conceding set piece goals in those conditions, especially against teams that are geared up to exploit set pieces anyway. Focusing on the goal or the individuals involved in the goal is pointless tbh. That is not why we lost.

Fair enough and I can see your point. My reaction is just that, a reaction to a large chunk of folks rushing to blame pretty much anyone but Romero. If people have to apportion blame then Romero should be top of the scrutiny list. Personally I'm more of a fan of the win as a team, lose as a team mindset.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Not sure that's what it was. The conditions were atrocious, and the wind was ridiculously unpredictable. In those conditions it's always harder to defend crosses than it is to attack them. I don't really have much of an issue with conceding set piece goals in those conditions, especially against teams that are geared up to exploit set pieces anyway. Focusing on the goal or the individuals involved in the goal is pointless tbh. That is not why we lost.

his body shape was all wrong - he can't see the man behind him he is totally unaware of him - his body has to be open when the ball is delivered he then blocks the run - defending in the wind and wet is difficult but its the same for the forwards - his postion is awful to start with and he never recovers - its a poor goal for a defence to give away the keeper needs to call it early but we are trying to avoid the ball coming on top of him so he has some mitigation , whoever calls the line should see it as well but Romero is defensively poor for the goal his biggest fault as a defender is that he is drawn to the ball like a moth - if his starting position is good there isn't any danger

 

[Trix]

his body shape was all wrong - he can't see the man behind him he is totally unaware of him - his body has to be open when the ball is delivered he then blocks the run - defending in the wind and wet is difficult but its the same for the forwards - his postion is awful to start with and he never recovers - its a poor goal for a defence to give away the keeper needs to call it early but we are trying to avoid the ball coming on top of him so he has some mitigation , whoever calls the line should see it as well but Romero is defensively poor for the goal his biggest fault as a defender is that he is drawn to the ball like a moth - if his starting position is good there isn't any danger

Now this is where I completely disagree. As an attacker you only have to worry about one thing and that is the flight of the ball, as a defender you have to be aware of the attacking players as well as the flight of the ball. When the ball is sometimes holding up in the wind, sometimes moving more left and right, and also pushing through at pace and you also have to watch the attacking players it becomes a nightmare. There is no worse place in conditions like that than a ground with open sections between the stands and trust me top pro's aren't accustomed to dealing with it, as it's something they rarely have to contend with, unless you play week in week out at a ground like Burnleys.

It's not why we lost!

 

[phillipjpalmer]

Strawman much?

I was pointing out that no team has a plan B, so saying we have no plan B is a completely pointless comment.

I'll put some context behind it.
The squad isn't diverse enough, outside of kane and son, there isnt much in the way of goalscorers, players who make assists.
I would say every team above us in the league currently have better attacking options to call on from the bench.
If son or kane are not firing we struggle, no plan b, nothing on the bench that can really impact a performance.
Moura, maybe on the odd occasion, bergwijn a couple of times at best.

Different coach, same players. Conte said it himself.

 

[TonyS]

When Winks was getting ready to come on at the start of the second half, my 10 year old boy said to me “oh no Dad, look who’s coming on”
Sums us up really and to see some of the players and Paratici (always forget his spelling) geeing him up before he came on…FFS. Game changer he ain’t. Sorry

 

[mpickard2087]

I don't really blame the keeper tbh. The wind was a nightmare and made it extremely difficult to predict it's flight path.

I only saw it this morning tbh, but I look at it now and the ball has been lofted in from the touchline, the play (both the ball and the whole line of players) has dropped on the six yard line basically in line with the back post. Even with a bit of wind I'm looking at that now as one a proactive goalkeeper could should and would be coming to deal with.

Reminiscent to me of the discussions people used to have about old man Friedel. He was an extreme example of a goalkeeper who never came off his line and left everything to his defence, so didn't make many obvious mistakes himself, and then you'd have the argument about his/it's merits and whether you could criticise the goalkeeper for not taking any responsibility himself.

I find it very odd that people are so wedded to the idea that Romero is untouchable that they will blame the keeper over the man marking the scorer. Jesus wept. Had it been Sanchez marking Mee you can guarantee he'd be getting pelters and the usual suspects would be never wanting to see him play again.

Mee wanted it more than Romero did. End of discussion.

As I made the original comment I'll reply to this as well. But nah simply not the case, I've made comment before this season myself that Romero's errors get brushed under the carpet because he's a shiny new toy with potential. But whilst Romero gets himself in a tangle (from rushing across and then losing the flight of the ball) though, the main error is systemic. The man at the back post kept pulling away from our narrow organisation, they kept sending it that way. We'd had a couple of warnings, and for that set piece Romero was looking over his shoulder clearly undecided whether he should actually go and mark him or hold his position and was inching across, but ultimately never committed.

Not sure that's what it was. The conditions were atrocious, and the wind was ridiculously unpredictable. In those conditions it's always harder to defend crosses than it is to attack them. I don't really have much of an issue with conceding set piece goals in those conditions, especially against teams that are geared up to exploit set pieces anyway. Focusing on the goal or the individuals involved in the goal is pointless tbh. That is not why we lost.

Obviously set pieces though was a huge part of why we lost. See above, they kept peeling off our narrow defensive organisation and hitting that man and eventually one counted, with Romero left in a muddle. Sport is full of fine margins and we didn't adjust - whether that was the players on the pitch, or the manager on the touchline - to what they were doing and reorganised ourselves. Also has to be asked why we started giving away numerous cheap freekicks under very little pressure in the second half, discipline is a huge factor in any sport and we lacked it and gave Burnley those set piece situations they crave.

 

[SpursSince1980]

I only saw it this morning tbh, but I look at it now and the ball has been lofted in from the touchline, the play (both the ball and the whole line of players) has dropped on the six yard line basically in line with the back post. Even with a bit of wind I'm looking at that now as one a proactive goalkeeper could should and would be coming to deal with.

Reminiscent to me of the discussions people used to have about old man Friedel. He was an extreme example of a goalkeeper who never came off his line and left everything to his defence, so didn't make many obvious mistakes himself, and then you'd have the argument about his/it's merits and whether you could criticise the goalkeeper for not taking any responsibility himself.



As I made the original comment I'll reply to this as well. But nah simply not the case, I've made comment before this season myself that Romero's errors get brushed under the carpet because he's a shiny new toy with potential. But whilst Romero gets himself in a tangle (from rushing across and then losing the flight of the ball) though, the main error is systemic. The man at the back post kept pulling away from our narrow organisation, they kept sending it that way. We'd had a couple of warnings, and for that set piece Romero was looking over his shoulder clearly undecided whether he should actually go and mark him or hold his position and was inching across, but ultimately never committed.


Obviously set pieces though was a huge part of why we lost. See above, they kept peeling off our narrow defensive organisation and hitting that man and eventually one counted, with Romero left in a muddle. Sport is full of fine margins and we didn't adjust - whether that was the players on the pitch, or the manager on the touchline - to what they were doing and reorganised ourselves. Also has to be asked why we started giving away numerous cheap freekicks under very little pressure in the second half, discipline is a huge factor in any sport and we lacked it and gave Burnley those set piece situations they crave.

but this was obvious to me. hence why I thought he would need to consider Sanchez or Rodon over Davies, to simply provide a better aerial buffer. As Dyche’s game plan was and is predictable. And he was probably rubbing his hands together when he saw our lineup. Just follow was Soton and Wolves did; flood the midfield, look for set pieces, put in early crosses. But unlike them, Burnley have guys like Mee who is better than all of our players in the air. And then keep organized defensively across the pitch. Rinse and repeat. Yet another game where just aren’t a big threat going forward. These teams have no fear against us.

 

[Trix]

Obviously set pieces though was a huge part of why we lost. See above, they kept peeling off our narrow defensive organisation and hitting that man and eventually one counted, with Romero left in a muddle. Sport is full of fine margins and we didn't adjust - whether that was the players on the pitch, or the manager on the touchline - to what they were doing and reorganised ourselves. Also has to be asked why we started giving away numerous cheap freekicks under very little pressure in the second half, discipline is a huge factor in any sport and we lacked it and gave Burnley those set piece situations they crave.

Yeah the loss was down to players not reacting to what was happening on the pitch, and the tactics were being exploited. That's what I meant by saying the reason we lost wasn't down to individual errors on that set piece.

 

[double0]

If that had been Sanchez and not Romero attempting to challenge Mee for their winning goal all hell would break loose.

The players really have to look hard at themselves for this defeat you can't put that performance we did against Man City then flip out against Burnley.

Clearly a mentality issue

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Now this is where I completely disagree. As an attacker you only have to worry about one thing and that is the flight of the ball, as a defender you have to be aware of the attacking players as well as the flight of the ball. When the ball is sometimes holding up in the wind, sometimes moving more left and right, and also pushing through at pace and you also have to watch the attacking players it becomes a nightmare. There is no worse place in conditions like that than a ground with open sections between the stands and trust me top pro's aren't accustomed to dealing with it, as it's something they rarely have to contend with, unless you play week in week out at a ground like Burnleys.

It's not why we lost!

defending is easier than attacking in those conditions - its about starting position if he has his body is open Mee can't get a run on him its basic defending nothing to do with wind or conditions or pros not accustomed to dealing with it you learn that as a kid if you start out facing the ball and not knowing where the man is you can't recover - as a team and the management they will be fuming giving away a goal at a far post set piece - Romero ends up underneath the ball not knowing where Mee is and he gets a free header - it happens but it was a poor goal to concede because its so avoidable

To be pedantic if you don't concede you don't lose the game -

 

[ajspurs]

I wondered about Lloris too as I thought the same when watching it live but didn't care enough to watch it back. Lloris has really frustrated me the last few games but after just watching it again now I definitely don't blame him. It was a high ball but still hit with relative pace and swinging away from the goal with like said, the wind impacting too. Didn't look like a simple take for a GK to me.

Don't know if it's too harsh but maybe we should have been better at assessing the situation and recognising that Mee had a run on a single defender at the back post. I mean it's 5 Burnley players against 8 Spurs there. For one Kulu should at least be swapping with Winks in the box and using his height for something.

Upon reflection I don't actually think we were so bad. The first half was a bit of a waste, but then even looking at records, since 2014 we've only once scored in the 1st half against Burnley and that was a penalty. The second half I feel like we put really good pressure on and should have scored from one of our chances. Kane hitting the bar, Kulu's effort just wide, Kulu's mishit in the box that lead to Davies striking the ball at Pope, and as well as a few wasteful counter attacking chances that at least a couple of times were wasted by Son. Like I said in the match thread, we really looked to lack that killer instinct and failed to punish Burnley for any openings that they did give us, in which they gave us more than I actually anticipated. I was surprised we got some of the counter attacking chances that we did.

I've been a lot more disappointed with other away performances this season, even in ones that we have drawn.

 

[Trix]

I wondered about Lloris too as I thought the same when watching it live but didn't care enough to watch it back. Lloris has really frustrated me the last few games but after just watching it again now I definitely don't blame him. It was a high ball but still hit with relative pace and swinging away from the goal with like said, the wind impacting too. Didn't look like a simple take for a GK to me.

Don't know if it's too harsh but maybe we should have been better at assessing the situation and recognising that Mee had a run on a single defender at the back post. I mean it's 5 Burnley players against 8 Spurs there. For one Kulu should at least be swapping with Winks in the box and using his height for something.

View attachment 106242

Upon reflection I don't actually think we were so bad. The first half was a bit of a waste, but then even looking at records, since 2014 we've only once scored in the 1st half against Burnley and that was a penalty. The second half I feel like we put really good pressure on and should have scored from one of our chances. Kane hitting the bar, Kulu's effort just wide, Kulu's mishit in the box that lead to Davies striking the ball at Pope, and as well as a few wasteful counter attacking chances that at least a couple of times were wasted by Son. Like I said in the match thread, we really looked to lack that killer instinct and failed to punish Burnley for any openings that they did give us, in which they gave us more than I actually anticipated. I was surprised we got some of the counter attacking chances that we did.

I've been a lot more disappointed with other away performances this season, even in ones that we have drawn.

To be fair I don't think Winks's role there(looking at his position) is to get involved with the corner, it's only to deal with the second ball that could drop to their player sitting 10 yards out. Kulu clearly doing the same to the guy stood off him. When you look at that we are set up pretty well one in front one behind is fairly textbook for dealing with that situation. Moura is the only one there that doesn't look to be needed where he is and as he's replaced Royal, should probably be the one helping out on the far post.

You then have to wonder if there were specific instruction for him to be where he was. If we win the ball and break from there we have the overload advantage with Son, Kulu and Moura all close together. Hard to say without knowing specifics.

 

[Nebby]

Set piece and we left ourselves 1 v 1 at the back post. That just shouldn't happen. Look at where our stand-in RWB is standing in the photo. He shouldn't be there.

 

[wadewill]

I wondered about Lloris too as I thought the same when watching it live but didn't care enough to watch it back. Lloris has really frustrated me the last few games but after just watching it again now I definitely don't blame him. It was a high ball but still hit with relative pace and swinging away from the goal with like said, the wind impacting too. Didn't look like a simple take for a GK to me.

Don't know if it's too harsh but maybe we should have been better at assessing the situation and recognising that Mee had a run on a single defender at the back post. I mean it's 5 Burnley players against 8 Spurs there. For one Kulu should at least be swapping with Winks in the box and using his height for something.

View attachment 106242

Upon reflection I don't actually think we were so bad. The first half was a bit of a waste, but then even looking at records, since 2014 we've only once scored in the 1st half against Burnley and that was a penalty. The second half I feel like we put really good pressure on and should have scored from one of our chances. Kane hitting the bar, Kulu's effort just wide, Kulu's mishit in the box that lead to Davies striking the ball at Pope, and as well as a few wasteful counter attacking chances that at least a couple of times were wasted by Son. Like I said in the match thread, we really looked to lack that killer instinct and failed to punish Burnley for any openings that they did give us, in which they gave us more than I actually anticipated. I was surprised we got some of the counter attacking chances that we did.

I've been a lot more disappointed with other away performances this season, even in ones that we have drawn.

Way too much space between Mee and Romero when the free kick came in, especially in those conditions, allowing an attacker to get a run on you 1 v 1 at the back post is a massive schoolboy

 

[ReadieSpur]

Are you taking the piss ?

What about our horrific recent results at home ???

The performances were very different. If you can't see that, then I dony know what to say to you.

 

[tevezito]

Enjoying the discussion about the goal and how to defend it, but surprised that over the 15 pages I've read not one person has commented that it was actually a foul. He had his hand on top of Romero's shoulder, which is a foul. I do wonder if that was Kane coming in on Mee at the back post whether the goal would still have stood. Since noone's commented on it already I imagine no one will agree with me, but that's my tuppenceworth.