Defensive Mid

[mil1lion]

I'm not convinced by that. I see Modric as being a very similar player to Paul Scholes. These sort of players are at their best in the final third and I think it would be a terrible waste of Modric's talent to play him as Scholes now plays at Utd with Carrick. Scholes and Carrick both sit pretty deep in a flat midfield pairing for Utd. I don't think you could realistically play Modric and a Carrick type of player together as there is no one to do the midfield running and unless they play in a deeper flat pairing (which as I've already say, I think would be a total waste), we are going to need someone to get up and down the pitch. Keane used to do it for Scholes and Costinha would do the same for Deco. In a reverse situation, with the playmaker sitting deeper, Jenas used to provide the box to box energy for Carrick. I think if Modric is going to play in the middle in a 442, then he has to play with a defensive minded, box to box, athletic player. Without energy in midfield, the oppostion will have too much time on the ball. The one thing JJ and Zokora do very well as a pairing is close down and press the oppostion (though sometimes too high up the pitch). Personally, and I think i'm pretty much alone in this, but I think if we play a 442, with Modric in the middle, then he'll start alongside JJ. If we sign someone like Veloso or Albelda, i think it will mean we are not going to play 442 or Modric will be used on the left.

I think it very much depends on the opposition and whether we're at home or not. I wouldn't be too against Jenas and Modric in the middle at home against lesser teams, but to bring the best out of Modric, i would play a Poulsen like defensive midfielder. Someone who doesn't play box to box, as you suggest, but who sits deep and breaks up play. Someone who reads the game well and has good distribution. Afterall, pace and energy aren't important if the first several yards are in your head.

Modric has shown for Croatia that he can play that deeper role, which could prove important away from home and aganst the top 4, where we may not have as much possession as we would like. He is at his best when he doesn't have to worry too much about defending, and has the freedom to get forward and link up with the strikers. Plus we already have wingers who, under Ramos, will do all the box to box running. The way Sevilla have been set up, i would say Modric would play more the Keita role, getting forward with a new DM playing the Poulsen role, sitting and protecting the back 4.

I have no doubt in my mind that the formation will start as 4-4-2 next season, but will change as the game goes on. In that respect, its important that we have players like Giovani and Modric who can play in different roles. We have great options in midfield now, but i still think we need a new defensive midfielder, like Carrick, in the 1st team.

 

[joey55]

I think it very much depends on the opposition and whether we're at home or not. I wouldn't be too against Jenas and Modric in the middle at home against lesser teams, but to bring the best out of Modric, i would play a Poulsen like defensive midfielder. Someone who doesn't play box to box, as you suggest, but who sits deep and breaks up play. Someone who reads the game well and has good distribution. Afterall, pace and energy aren't important if the first several yards are in your head.

Modric has shown for Croatia that he can play that deeper role, which could prove important away from home and aganst the top 4, where we may not have as much possession as we would like. He is at his best when he doesn't have to worry too much about defending, and has the freedom to get forward and link up with the strikers. Plus we already have wingers who, under Ramos, will do all the box to box running. The way Sevilla have been set up, i would say Modric would play more the Keita role, getting forward with a new DM playing the Poulsen role, sitting and protecting the back 4.

I have no doubt in my mind that the formation will start as 4-4-2 next season, but will change as the game goes on. In that respect, its important that we have players like Giovani and Modric who can play in different roles. We have great options in midfield now, but i still think we need a new defensive midfielder, like Carrick, in the 1st team.

I actually don't see Modric as being similar to Keita. I see Keita as incredibably similar to Altintop. They are both big and strong and can slow the game down to play at their own pace and have the power to surge forward when they want. After seeing just 2 games of Keita last season, I knew he was gem and it's the same situation now with Altintop. I compare both Altintop and Keita to Ballack, not Modric. Also, I don't think Modric has really shown he can play a deeper role or in a 442. I know the graphic at the start of the gamea said Croatia were playing a 442, but they didn't. They played a 4141 foramtion. Ollic was very much a lone striker and Krancjar and Modric played in front of Kovac.

I think the reason I don't want to play a holding player with Modric can be illustrated in last nights game. The formations were different but the principle is the same. Germany played with Ballack in an advanced role and therefore the gap between him and Rolfes was too big. The commentators blamed Rolfes, but it really wasn't his fault. He was in no mans land. The deffensive line was too deep and the attacking players to advanced leabing him over run. Don't ask me where Hitzelsperger (sp?) was meant to be playing!

With Modric playing as an attacking CM, then I think that would happen to a holding player, even without Germany's deep defensive line. If you think back to when we played Chelsea away the season before last. JJ was asked to play the holding role, with Steed infront of him. Though JJ put in a near faultless performance (making a mockery of the suggestion he couldn't play as a DM), the gap between him and Steed was simply too big and we had to change at half time.

I agree that it's important to have players who can play different roles, like Modric and Gio. I'd also love to sign a Carrick type. I'm in agreement with most of what you're saying, but the one thing i just don't think we should do, is play Modric in the middle with a holding player.

 

[brasil_spur]

Modric is our Fabregas, Carrick was our Gilberto. Together they would have been the best midfield partnership since Hoddle and Ardiles. Modric is our Ardiles. Who will be our Hoddle? Huddlestone maybe in a few years? But who could be now? Thats your answer to who we get in DM.

:up: spot on.

Which is why i reckon we are being heavily linked with Veloso.

edit: mods you should probably move all this to the 'modric and our new formation' thread given its lack of ITK relevance

edit 2: ok ignore that, i see this isn't actually in the ITK discussion thread

 

[van_Pommel]

-Lennon---------Modric-------DM------dos Santos


-----------------Berba-------Keane--------------

There is a real lack of strength in that midfield, they're all skinny midgets. Essien as the DM would make that a potential top 4 midfield I reckon.

Where do you find the perfect DM who isn't already at a top club?

 

[PT]

-Lennon---------Modric-------DM------dos Santos


-----------------Berba-------Keane--------------

There is a real lack of strength in that midfield, they're all skinny midgets. Essien as the DM would make that a potential top 4 midfield I reckon.

Where do you find the perfect DM who isn't already at a top club?

I don't know but we're not the only ones looking. Villa will need to replace Barry when / if he goes and I reckon Arsenal are in the market too.

 

[van_Pommel]

I don't know but we're not the only ones looking. Villa will need to replace Barry when / if he goes and I reckon Arsenal are in the market too.

I'm pretty sure Wenger will get Makoun in. He's young, African, and he's the type of 'never stops running' DM which Wenger loves.

Villa have Reo Coker playing the DM role so I reckon they'll go for more of a box to box midfielder like JJ.

Does anyone think we'd have the slightest chance of getting Toulalan? I haven't seen him linked with any top clubs yet. Presumably he's want CL though if he left.

DM is such a frustrating postion to fill these days. Decent ones are few and far between. Maybe we'd be better off trying to get the best out of Huddlestone.

 

[mil1lion]

I actually don't see Modric as being similar to Keita. I see Keita as incredibably similar to Altintop. They are both big and strong and can slow the game down to play at their own pace and have the power to surge forward when they want. After seeing just 2 games of Keita last season, I knew he was gem and it's the same situation now with Altintop. I compare both Altintop and Keita to Ballack, not Modric. Also, I don't think Modric has really shown he can play a deeper role or in a 442. I know the graphic at the start of the gamea said Croatia were playing a 442, but they didn't. They played a 4141 foramtion. Ollic was very much a lone striker and Krancjar and Modric played in front of Kovac.

Sorry, i didn't mean to liken Modric to Keita in that respect. Very different players for sure. I was more thinking along the lines of, Keita is the one of the two central mifielders who has a licence to get forward, while Poulsen will always stay back.

Altintop does look a very good player for sure, its first i've seen of him in the Euros.

I think the reason I don't want to play a holding player with Modric can be illustrated in last nights game. The formations were different but the principle is the same. Germany played with Ballack in an advanced role and therefore the gap between him and Rolfes was too big. The commentators blamed Rolfes, but it really wasn't his fault. He was in no mans land. The deffensive line was too deep and the attacking players to advanced leabing him over run. Don't ask me where Hitzelsperger (sp?) was meant to be playing!

With Modric playing as an attacking CM, then I think that would happen to a holding player, even without Germany's deep defensive line. If you think back to when we played Chelsea away the season before last. JJ was asked to play the holding role, with Steed infront of him. Though JJ put in a near faultless performance (making a mockery of the suggestion he couldn't play as a DM), the gap between him and Steed was simply too big and we had to change at half time.

I guess that depends a great deal on whether Berbatov stays really. If he stays then he will be the one dropping off, effectively covering the area in which Ballack operates. I kind of imagine us play with Modric and a holding midfielder, with Berbatov dropping off and linking up play, and the wingers making most of the movement getting forward on the flanks, and coming infield. With the fullbacks also pushing forward to overlap the wingers at times. Then Modric operating with intricate passing in the middle, threading through balls to the wings etc. Plus having the licence to get forward when we're dominating possession. So kind of like a box to box midfielder role really. He showed great energy against Turkey the other night, especially during extra time. lthough i agree he doesn't have the speed and strength of Jenas.

Theres a great deal of movement between the front players and Lennon and Malbranque aswell. Which is why i think a defensive midfielder who stays back is important when we lose the ball, and players are caught out of position.

I agree that it's important to have players who can play different roles, like Modric and Gio. I'd also love to sign a Carrick type. I'm in agreement with most of what you're saying, but the one thing i just don't think we should do, is play Modric in the middle with a holding player.

I'm finding it difficult to decide on the type of midfielder i'd like. A destroyer like Mascharano or a passer and intercepter like Carrick. I think Zokora can fill the role of a destroyer, yet i cant think of who can replace Carrick. Aside from Huddlestone who is still too young.

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

I'm finding it difficult to decide on the type of midfielder i'd like. A destroyer like Mascharano or a passer and intercepter like Carrick. I think Zokora can fill the role of a destroyer, yet i cant think of who can replace Carrick. Aside from Huddlestone who is still too young.

I don't think Zokora can be the destroyer, his positioning isn't great and the barrel role tackle isn't exactly inspiring.

 

[joey55]

I'm pretty sure Wenger will get Makoun in. He's young, African, and he's the type of 'never stops running' DM which Wenger loves.

Villa have Reo Coker playing the DM role so I reckon they'll go for more of a box to box midfielder like JJ.

Does anyone think we'd have the slightest chance of getting Toulalan? I haven't seen him linked with any top clubs yet. Presumably he's want CL though if he left.

DM is such a frustrating postion to fill these days. Decent ones are few and far between. Maybe we'd be better off trying to get the best out of Huddlestone.

Makoun signed for Lyon last week. But if you look at the histroy of many of the the players playing DM for top club or international sides, they are just general midfielders being asked to play a more defensive role. I think Ruben Del Le red is the best solution.

 

[van_Pommel]

Makoun signed for Lyon last week. But if you look at the histroy of many of the the players playing DM for top club or international sides, they are just general midfielders being asked to play a more defensive role. I think Ruben Del Le red is the best solution.

Maybe Lyon will let Toulalan go then? ray:

I think you may be onto something though. A defensive mid in the Makelele mould would need two CM's in front to be fully effective, like he was at Chelsea. We definately need someone who can hold their own in a 442. Which begs the question, could Modric hold in own in the middle in a 442? He may need to be moved over to the left with say de la Red and JJ in the middle.

 

[Dharmabum]

Apart from already mentioned Veloso and Palombo, I wouldn't mind seeing Gohkan Inler as DMF next season.
It's rumoured Real are willing to let Mahamoud Diarra go for the "right" price - which most prob would be close to 20-22m.

 

[brasil_spur]

My concern after watching the Euro's is that Modric is exactly the type of playmaker we need in our midfield, however if we play him out on the left he wont be able to thread his deft passes and pull the strings like he did for Croatia, in effect he will end up playing a similar role to Steed.

I would think Ramos would have seen this before we signed him, so i'm assuming he is planned to play in the centre, especially as we have signed Dos Sanots who is a wide left player, not to mention Bale and Gilberto that can both play there.

Question is who should we be playing alongside Modric in midfield? For me i think Jenas could work well, but it would make sense to bring in someone else, more defensively minded, that way we can change the style of midfield play slightly depending on opposition, playing against Man U you need a different midfield set up than against say Derby.

But i don't think a Makele style DM is what we need. Which seems to fit with the Veloso links as he is in more of a Pirlo/Flamini mould (sorry to keep going back to the scum here to reference).

 

[CrazyG2]

I think we need a good passer and someone who's composed on the ball. Carrick was brilliant at both these things, he rarely wasted a pass and when under pressure shielded the ball extremely well. Tackling is overrated for a DM because in that role positioning and awareness of your team mates is key. Most players will try and pass the ball around you rather than dribble therefore having somebody sitting in the DM position encourages the opposition to play out wide rather than shoot or thread a through ball. This slows down play giving our team more time to regain their defensive shape. Once the ball is wide just pressure the opposition and more often than not they will play the ball backwards or cross it. If they cross it we should be able to defend well, all 4 CB (King, Woodgate, Dawson and Kaboul, not to mention Hutton) are excellent in the air and a commanding keeper would be the final piece of the puzzle.

 

[stemark44]

Makoun signed for Lyon last week. But if you look at the histroy of many of the the players playing DM for top club or international sides, they are just general midfielders being asked to play a more defensive role. I think Ruben Del Le red is the best solution.

Correct,I can't believe guys that say - such and such can't play there because he is a CM - what difference is there in playing 10 yards further back in a game.In fact its actually an easier role because 90% of the play is in front of them!
I reckon we still need another 2/3 midfielders to supplement our squad and Bentley - Inler - Altintop would be my choice.
..................................Gomes.........................................
......................Woodgate...............King............................
Hutton.....................................................................Bale
........................Altintop............Inler................................
....................................Modric.......................................
......Bentley............................................DosSantos............
................................Berbatov........................................

 

[joey55]

Correct,I can't believe guys that say - such and such can't play there because he is a CM - what difference is there in playing 10 yards further back in a game.In fact its actually an easier role because 90% of the play is in front of them!
I reckon we still need another 2/3 midfielders to supplement our squad and Bentley - Inler - Altintop would be my choice.
..................................Gomes.........................................
......................Woodgate...............King............................
Hutton.....................................................................Bale
........................Altintop............Inler................................
....................................Modric.......................................
......Bentley............................................DosSantos............
................................Berbatov........................................

Looks very good to me. MVB and Ze Roberto play as DMs for Bayern and yet they've had long careers as an AM and LW. Engelaar has been given alot of praise for his DM play, but he's just an AM who has been asked to drop back this season.

 

[mil1lion]

Correct,I can't believe guys that say - such and such can't play there because he is a CM - what difference is there in playing 10 yards further back in a game.In fact its actually an easier role because 90% of the play is in front of them!
I reckon we still need another 2/3 midfielders to supplement our squad and Bentley - Inler - Altintop would be my choice.
..................................Gomes.........................................
......................Woodgate...............King............................
Hutton.....................................................................Bale
........................Altintop............Inler................................
....................................Modric.......................................
......Bentley............................................DosSantos............
................................Berbatov........................................

That could only work if we had a Ronaldo in the team to score 25 plus goals. Thats the reason it works for Man Utd, with Rooney as the lone striker. Theres no way i can see Berbatov up front on his own, especially as he's at his best dropping off. I cant see any reason why Modric couldn't replace either Inler or Altintop in the middle, and we play a 4-4-2 with Keane and Berbatov up front. I just cant see many goals in that team.:shrug:

 

[sloth]

I reckon DZ's the man.

 

[fozzi44]

^^

so do i to be fair. Put Zokora in there, tell him exactly what he is to do he is a good dm in my opinion.

Sell the dead wood for 20 odd million.


Get capel, keep berba - jobs a gud un.

 

[Stoof]

Put Zokora in there.

Sell the dead wood for 20 odd million.

But how can we do both?

 

[fozzi44]

But how can we do both?