Disappointed with our lack of transfer strategy

[Lilbaz]

Yes it is. They are separate budgets though and I remember Levy saying that the stadium budget wouldn't affect our transfer budget.

The point is that if you are always balancing the 'transfer budget' every window then you might find it harder to improve the quality of players at your club. Arsenal had to take on that strategy and stagnated for a long time. Recently they've begun to spend some money and have improved as a result.

Then we had a credit crunch and the banks scrambled to get their money back. Seizing Liverpool and selling them from under their owners noses for a debt of £200m. Levy then came out and said the stadium wasn't financially viable and looked to Stratford. Then Haringey said they'd pay for the 106 agreements so it was viable.

How does this affect our transfer budget? We don't know. It might have been the budget all along to have a £0 net spend, we don't know.

Arsenal have had money to buy players for a while. They lost a bit of money on the housing as the credit crunch happened but they still had money. It's just that Wenger didn't want to spend as he didn't see any good deals for players that were better than he already had. Arsenals payments were £20m a year for the new stadium, their increased revenue was about £60m. So they were immediately £40m a year better off. They still haven't paid it all off as the interest they have on the debt is very low so it's not worth it.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Really? Seems to me Arsenal keep finishing 4th.

I think they played much better football last season and spent the most time at the top of the table. They've started buying world class players like Ozil and Sanchez instead of selling them.

Chelsea and Liverpool improved last season too.

The original argument is about always having a zero net spend on transfers which I think makes it hard to really improve you squad.

 

[Big Jeff]

Don't you agree with companies reinvesting their profits back into the company to help it grow?

Of course I do, but businesses need to strike a balance between investing their profits and sheer recklessness. We invested the Bale money with seven incoming transfers, and still people are bemoaning Levy for not spending more money than came in, which to me is very short sighted. No successful business can continue to spend more money than it brings in.

 

[NEVILLEB]

Of course I do, but businesses need to strike a balance between investing their profits and sheer recklessness. We invested the Bale money with seven incoming transfers, and still people are bemoaning Levy for not spending more money than came in, which to me is very short sighted. No successful business can continue to spend more money than it brings in.

I think you are confusing yourself. No one is suggesting sheer recklessness. You are jumping to a doomsday scenario.

Just because you don't make back all your money during one window doesn't mean the club will collapse. You also have to factor that an improved squad should mean a superior league finish, better sponsorship deals, longer cup runs, more merchandise sales, etc. This increases revenue and helps pay for any excess in transfer spending.

The current issue with our squad however is a result of a very poor decision to invest in AVB and his ideas. We've also gone back to the Director of Football structure which failed before.

Hopefully Poch will be a good influence on both Levy and Baldini and get a balanced squad in place asap.

 

[dontcallme]

I think they played much better football last season and spent the most time at the top of the table. They've started buying world class players like Ozil and Sanchez instead of selling them.

Chelsea and Liverpool improved last season too.

The original argument is about always having a zero net spend on transfers which I think makes it hard to really improve you squad.

It's a fair point and to be honest I was being flippant.

I think net spend is a bit of a red herring though. Top players go for higher wages rather than transfer fees and ours is going up.

Chelsea bought Robben for a fair price but the real cost was his wages.

Arsenal will sell their players when the true top clubs bids high fees for them, just like us, nothing has changed.

They have CL football and a higher turnover so can buy the likes of Ozil which is out of our reach. They still lose players to Man City, Utd and the Spanish duo the same as us.

I just think our routes to improvements aren't based on our net spend.

 

[SpurSince57]

I think you are confusing yourself. No one is suggesting sheer recklessness. You are jumping to a doomsday scenario.

Just because you don't make back all your money during one window doesn't mean the club will collapse. You also have to factor that an improved squad should mean a superior league finish, better sponsorship deals, longer cup runs, more merchandise sales, etc. This increases revenue and helps pay for any excess in transfer spending.

The current issue with our squad however is a result of a very poor decision to invest in AVB and his ideas. We've also gone back to the Director of Football structure which failed before.

Hopefully Poch will be a good influence on both Levy and Baldini and get a balanced squad in place asap.

So just what are you suggesting? What level of debt would you consider acceptable?

 

[sloth]

I thought when Baldini was employed this kind of situation would be a thing of the past but it seems not.

What do you think as a club we should be doing that we're not, given our financial limitations? If we did it, what do you think would result? If we did it, and it didn't work out as you hoped, what do you think would result?

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Something that may have been mentioned already, but bears pointing out - if we do indeed spend two years away from WHL, then that could cut our match day revenue by nearly 33% - which may, in turn, impact our ability to go after big signings the next couple of years.

That could explain some of the younger signings like Dier and Yedlin, and even Vorm, who could be used if we were to sell Lloris to raise funds for other transfers.

 

[SpurSince57]

I have to say I cannot call this window. Part of me thinks Levy couldn't possibly fail to make any significant improvement to the squad after the disaster that was last season. But then there's two weeks to go and there's not a murmour of any significant ins or outs. I have to say I hope it's the calm before the storm because the thought of watching 50 turgid performances again fills me with dread. Attacking players are needle desperately.

Disaster? In your 20 years as a season ticket holder, how many times have we achieved more than 69 points?

 

[haydsmith]

Disaster? In your 20 years as a season ticket holder, how many times have we achieved more than 69 points?

Forget the points. Stating point totals is really a limited argument. We were further than ever in recent years from the top clubs as proven by them repeatedly taken us apart. Against the lesser sides, we laboured to a number of wins without ever playing particularly well. If you enjoyed it, good for you. I didn't, and I didn't get the impression many others in the crowd at WHL did.

 

[Mullers]

What do you think as a club we should be doing that we're not, given our financial limitations? If we did it, what do you think would result? If we did it, and it didn't work out as you hoped, what do you think would result?

We need to scout players before they get well known e.g the likes of Beneteke and Bony who we've been linked with.
we've done that to a degree but we need to do more of that given that we can't outspend the big boys
If the coach needs a player e.g a midfielder but the price is too expensive or the club refuse to sell try and find a less expensive midfielder rather than gambling that the club may have changed their mind come deadline.
Because if the gamble doesn't pay off the coach is left with a hole in his squad.

 

[sloth]

We need to scout players before they get well known e.g the likes of Beneteke and Bony who we've been linked with.
we've done that to a degree but we need to do more of that given that we can't outspend the big boys
If the coach needs a player e.g a midfielder but the price is too expensive or the club refuse to sell try and find a less expensive midfielder rather than gambling that the club may have changed their mind come deadline.
Because if the gamble doesn't pay off the coach is left with a hole in his squad.

And how should we do that? Invest in new training facilities? Keep looking for the best scouts? Or head of scouting? Employ a manager who buys into the search for youth, rather than one who doesn't. If we did, who knows we might be able to pick up young defenders from the Portuguese league, or U21 Welsh players. Maybe we could even have developed our own U21 and now full international england winger? Or even U20 World Cup Algerian?

But seriously, other than building a training facility, rehiring Broomfield, getting in Pochetinno, what else should Levy be doing to improve us in this department?

 

[InOffMeLeftShin]

Sorry but what??!

There is quite a clear strategy as far as I can see. We continue to trust in the attacking players that we have spent millions on, bringing in a new coach with a background of being able to develop players successfully and we give that time to see how it goes. Pochettino has plenty to work with and if he gets 20% more out of those players individually and gets them to play as a team then we could be in for a fun season under the radar.

In terms of investment in players we are starting from the back and trying to solidify and add to depth in defensive areas. Vorm is an upgrade on Brad. Davies, Dier, Yedlin all add depth in positions where we had very little and will help us as we have a long season of league and cup football ahead of us.

 

[Bobbins]

I think you are confusing yourself. No one is suggesting sheer recklessness. You are jumping to a doomsday scenario.

Just because you don't make back all your money during one window doesn't mean the club will collapse. You also have to factor that an improved squad should mean a superior league finish, better sponsorship deals, longer cup runs, more merchandise sales, etc. This increases revenue and helps pay for any excess in transfer spending.

The current issue with our squad however is a result of a very poor decision to invest in AVB and his ideas. We've also gone back to the Director of Football structure which failed before.

Hopefully Poch will be a good influence on both Levy and Baldini and get a balanced squad in place asap.

One of the things you don't seem to acknowledge is that we can't go out and buy Ozil or Sanchez - not because they're too expensive (we spent massive money on individual players last summer), but because they won't come to us. We're not in the CL, we don't pay big wages, and we have no real realistic prospect of breaking the top 4 due to the money of the owners above us and the top teams stranglehold on the CL places.

Yes, players like Vertonghen, Eriksen and Lloris are top players, but with the exception of Lloris, they're not at the very top bracket of being world class. They might be, with more age and experience, and they might become so with us, like Bale and Modric did.

So what do we do? People complain about us buying to sell at an inflated price later but that isn't true. We buy not planning on selling at all, but using those players to try and improve. Unfortunately the cycle is that until you get enough of them at once you can't break the lockdown at the top, and whilst you're not breaking it, your top players will want to take the easy route and leave for one of those top teams, to get money and trophies and all the rest. And in turn the top teams will want your best players, as they're proven and marketable and it weakens us as a threat to them.

Lamela and Soldado were overpriced - there's little doubt about that. £25m+ for a player who isn't world class is not great business. The likes of the Vertonghen and Eriksen deals were much more sensible and will provide a return on the investment - either in performances above their values if they stay, or big profits when they leave.

But I really don't see what else Levy can do. It's absolutely, fundamentally not about net spend or anything like it. It's about somehow recruiting players who will turn into top, world class talent. And then it's about somehow hanging on to them once the likes of Madrid come calling. We tried getting a whole bunch of these type of players in one go last season to really make a shot of it - and we fucked it up. We bought a lot of average players for far too much money and we'll likely lose a lot of it. And this was after a once-in-a-generation financial windfall.

Absolutely no football team in the country has managed to do this so far - every single team that's come close to breaking the hegemony at the top has been quickly broken up, and it's happened to us more than anyone else because we've come closest most often.

The stadium might help a bit, allowing us to pay higher wages. FFP might help a little, preventing Chelsea from doing their "buy everyone so no-one else can have them" thing quite so often. But ultimately the CL ship has sailed (IMO) - the oil and gas money has already done its damage and the exclusive club at the top are not interested in being open to membership anymore. And unfortunately for us, we were the last bloke standing outside waiting to get in before the door closed. That's one of the reasons Chelsea winning the CL that year we finished 4th again was so utterly sickening - with Liverpool's demise and Ferguson's inevitable retirement, that qualification, combined with the new stadium, might have been the key to us becoming a member of the exclusive club.

No chance now.

 

[SteveH]

One of the things you don't seem to acknowledge is that we can't go out and buy Ozil or Sanchez - not because they're too expensive (we spent massive money on individual players last summer), but because they won't come to us. We're not in the CL, we don't pay big wages, and we have no real realistic prospect of breaking the top 4 due to the money of the owners above us and the top teams stranglehold on the CL places.

Yes, players like Vertonghen, Eriksen and Lloris are top players, but with the exception of Lloris, they're not at the very top bracket of being world class. They might be, with more age and experience, and they might become so with us, like Bale and Modric did.

So what do we do? People complain about us buying to sell at an inflated price later but that isn't true. We buy not planning on selling at all, but using those players to try and improve. Unfortunately the cycle is that until you get enough of them at once you can't break the lockdown at the top, and whilst you're not breaking it, your top players will want to take the easy route and leave for one of those top teams, to get money and trophies and all the rest. And in turn the top teams will want your best players, as they're proven and marketable and it weakens us as a threat to them.

Lamela and Soldado were overpriced - there's little doubt about that. £25m+ for a player who isn't world class is not great business. The likes of the Vertonghen and Eriksen deals were much more sensible and will provide a return on the investment - either in performances above their values if they stay, or big profits when they leave.

But I really don't see what else Levy can do. It's absolutely, fundamentally not about net spend or anything like it. It's about somehow recruiting players who will turn into top, world class talent. And then it's about somehow hanging on to them once the likes of Madrid come calling. We tried getting a whole bunch of these type of players in one go last season to really make a shot of it - and we fucked it up. We bought a lot of average players for far too much money and we'll likely lose a lot of it. And this was after a once-in-a-generation financial windfall.

Absolutely no football team in the country has managed to do this so far - every single team that's come close to breaking the hegemony at the top has been quickly broken up, and it's happened to us more than anyone else because we've come closest most often.

The stadium might help a bit, allowing us to pay higher wages. FFP might help a little, preventing Chelsea from doing their "buy everyone so no-one else can have them" thing quite so often. But ultimately the CL ship has sailed (IMO) - the oil and gas money has already done its damage and the exclusive club at the top are not interested in being open to membership anymore. And unfortunately for us, we were the last bloke standing outside waiting to get in before the door closed. That's one of the reasons Chelsea winning the CL that year we finished 4th again was so utterly sickening - with Liverpool's demise and Ferguson's inevitable retirement, that qualification, combined with the new stadium, might have been the key to us becoming a member of the exclusive club.

No chance now.

I put Lamela and Soldado down to 'win some lose some'. BTW I get the feeling in me water that Bobs maybe moving on.

Great reply, yet again! You should make a copy of this post it will come in useful again and again.

They just dont get it do they!

 

[Bobbins]

Your missing my point. I`m arguing against having a transfer strategy to buy players with the sole intention of improving them in order to sell them on for a profit. As was being advocated by another poster. I want to see a transfer strategy with the intention of improving the fucking team on the pitch. My team. not some other team two years down the line.

Well then you might as well stop getting so angry, because that absolutely is not our transfer policy at all. Levy has never sold a player to make a profit - he's made a profit as a by-product of fighting tooth and nail to keep the player.

You cannot honestly think that we actually plan on buying to sell? You cannot honestly think that Berbatov, Modric and Bale going on strike is a symptom of Levy trying to force them out the door? They went on strike because Levy wouldn't let them leave, forcing them (in their minds) to take the ultimate action to get a move. Levy then simply did everything he possibly could to extract the maximum benefit for the club from the situation.

I appreciate your passion for the club but you're living in a dream world if you think we're buying to sell, and your anger is completely misplaced. You're just fundamentally underestimating the football food chain and no amount of pride in your club will change it.

Finally, as with everyone else who goes on these rants about us/ENIC/Levy/transfer etc, you've suggested nothing which could overcome the problem without bankrupting the club. I would love to hear how you think we should go about our transfer strategy, and resist the big clubs poaching our players?

 

[SpurSince57]

Forget the points. Stating point totals is really a limited argument. We were further than ever in recent years from the top clubs as proven by them repeatedly taken us apart. Against the lesser sides, we laboured to a number of wins without ever playing particularly well. If you enjoyed it, good for you. I didn't, and I didn't get the impression many others in the crowd at WHL did.

Perhaps you need another dose of Ramos to remind you what a disaster is.

 

[SpurSince57]

Why do people keep comparing to previous eras? It's the same as comparing Enic to Sugar. What about Enic versus the 60s and 70s?

Why do people continue to abuse the English language?

 

[TorontoYid]

And how should we do that? Invest in new training facilities? Keep looking for the best scouts? Or head of scouting? Employ a manager who buys into the search for youth, rather than one who doesn't. If we did, who knows we might be able to pick up young defenders from the Portuguese league, or U21 Welsh players. Maybe we could even have developed our own U21 and now full international england winger? Or even U20 World Cup Algerian?

But seriously, other than building a training facility, rehiring Broomfield, getting in Pochetinno, what else should Levy be doing to improve us in this department?

We have an obligation to Real Madrid to sell them all of our best talent. If we don't find some way of attracting the future stars then how will that happen?

 

[Bobbins]

Why do people keep comparing to previous eras? It's the same as comparing Enic to Sugar. What about Enic versus the 60s and 70s?

How on earth is Ramos considered a different era? It was 5 years ago not 50.