ENIC...

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

20 years to achieve something that should have taken half that time.

What should have taken half the time?

 

[jimmy-jojo]

What should have taken half the time?

Building the stadium.

 

[Saoirse]

Building the stadium.

I'm sure you can point out all the other mid-table teams with gloried histories who've built state of the art, 60k stadia with the capacity to host all sorts of events and drive their clubs forward in the space of ten years then. Because I'm pretty sure we're the only ones who've done so, full stop.

Levy does need to take some share of the blame. He shouldn't have agreed to the contract he gave Jose. And he maybe should have made more decisions which would have been deeply unpopular but proven correct e.g. overruled Poch to sign second-choice targets in those empty windows, or sold someone at their peak ala Coutinho to fund investment.

Other times though, they get blamed for stuff completely out of their control, like some transfers universally backed at the time not working out (only half of transfers at most ever do - it's just part of the game). Or for struggling to sell players - this is a consistent problem with the PL being so rich that the 20th English club is the 30th richest in the world, meaning there's a very small pool who can afford to pay PL level wages. And on the whole, I think they've done more impressive jobs than any comparable board - the only alternative you could even argue is preferable IMO is someone willing to splash infinite money for dark ulterior motives.

Jose was a big mistake, but for all the talk of who'll replace him, I'd look at the rest of the league, how badly fucked some clubs have been, and end up not feeling too optimistic about replacing Levy. It's a bad mistake, but it's time to cut losses, move on, and see if we can redeem the season - with a new manager bounce it's not out of the question that we could still get 4th and a trophy. COYS

 

[dontcallme]

Building the stadium.

Disagree. There are a few people in the stadium development threads who clearly know their stuff. They confirmed it wasn't easy and the end result is arguably the best stadium in Europe.

 

[Gilzean at the near post]

Levy was decisive in bringing in Mourinho although it felt like a wrong fit at the time and has proved to be so.

He needs to act decisively now by making a change again.

He would have been thinking for months that this point was approaching and would have been thinking of the structure that was needed in the new setup. I see absolutely no benefit of retaining Mourinho now

 

[rossdapep]

Agreed. This is a low point in our recent history. And it's been a fairly shit couple of seasons. But it's worth remembering that they have come after a run of 15 seasons that, barring two or three exceptions, have ranged from pretty good to excellent.

If - and I concede that it is a big if - we can bring in the right people, things could quickly look up again.

They could do. But do you really trust Levy.

Let's look at his successful appointments.

Jol - Was brought in as an assistant coach and someone to bridge between Santini and Arnesen. Given the job cause Santini quit.

Redknapp - Was brought in as a firefighter to get us out of the relegation mire we were facing and ended up getting more out of the players than expected so stuck around.

Poch - Apparently forced by Lewis as Levy wanted Van Gaal.

So, not exactly fully thought out appointments or appointments made by preference.

Now, we could get Nagelsmann. And he could so well and have us back in the CL. But the way the club is run we always have this inevitably of seriously dropping off.

Wasted chance 1. Got CL football with Redknapp, had a good CL run and with a bit more of a push could have been back in it the following two years - whixh would have given us the platform.

Wasted chance 2 - Pushed Leicester for the title and were certainly on the up. Next season promised to be special. Spent the entire window being linked to decent players and ended up with Nkodou and Sissoko. Penny pinched on Jannssen and Nkodou when we could have pushed the boat out for Zaha. Beaten to the title by Chelsea because we didn't quite have enough quality options off the bench.

Wasted chance 3 - Got to the CL final, a chance for the club to use that to go again or have some wholesale changes. Whilst the club did spend massive on Ndombele, they also spent 3 months to get the Lo Celso deal done and dragged the Sessegnon deal out over TWO YEARS! Only Lo Celso and Ndombele came in as first team players and Ndombele wasnt at it.

Perez spoke about 'missed signings' so you have to wonder which players the club didn't manage to sign that window. Dybala? Fernandes? Whoever...another pissed up opportunity.


Levy and the club know how to do this.

I said in the window that Hojbjerg, whilst a smart signing, was nothing to praise the club for. It was an easy signing to do.

Even Bale seems like it was something that came about because other parties relented and accepted compromises, meaning we didn't exactly push the boat out.

Meanwhile we refuse to go anywhere near the valuation of a player (Skriniar) who would have drastically improved our defence but we'll spunk 15m up the wall on a RB who has never been anything more than average.

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

There is only one way that he can make this right. Set up a rock solid football structure that can deliver success and provide continuity from manager to manager, from group of players to group of players.

Then don't interfere with it.

And stick with it.

This part sounds reasonable but what have you seen that I haven't to suggest this is going has any chance to happen? ( particularly the interfere part)

 

[rez9000]

The whole ENIC argument is a very knotty one. It's an area where a binary view will undermine validity.

Those who think that ENIC should no longer be involved with the club need to recognise that they have fundamentally changed the status of the club outside of what has happened on the pitch. There are undoubtedly positives and successes that they 100% should be given credit for. Some may argue what's the use of having world-class facilities and a world-class stadium if we don't invest in the playing squad, and that's certainly a valid and important point to make. But what that (again binary) view does is suggest that one is mutually inclusive of the other at the precise same time.

Likewise, those who state that ENIC's skill in finance automatically qualifies them as having provided success outside of what happens on the pitch need to recognise the primary purpose of a football club - which is to play football and strive to win things. That's what sport is about - competition. The old adage about participation being more important is, to my mind, invalid and actually diametrically opposed to the idea of sport. Games are about participation, sport is about competition. Chess can be played by someone like me as a game, but then there are those who play chess as a sport and the competition is as fierce in those arenas as tennis or rugby or.... football. So ENIC's record when it comes to finances and infrastructure may be excellent, but that doesn't equate to them being good on on-the-pitch issues.

What is key, however, is that current form right now doesn't bear up to either argument. The problems at Spurs are cultural and could be a function of ENIC's approach but not necessarily directly caused by them, if that makes sense.

We are at a watershed moment. And I think we're bordering on crisis because what ENIC have failed to do is fully recognise the inherent weakness of the club and address it. I don't feel that disqualifies them from running this club, but that they need to have a fundamental reappraisal of their governance of the club, the key aspect of which is the the shape they want the footballing side of things to take.

I, as I've stated, believe that Mourinho is not the wrong person for this club. I feel he has all the tools within himself and his staff to bring success to this club. However, he needs to be given carte blanche to do with the squad exactly what he feels needs to be done - a refresh and reboot. No player is safe, except Kane and Sonny. Whoever needs to be shipped out apart from them must be allowed to be sold regardless of ENIC's view. This will enable a clearing of the decks and bringing in players that are not affected by the malaise that has surrounded us for the last three years (and before that too, to be honest, but the last three years are where it's come into sharpest focus).

There is, of course, scope to impose some limits on expenditure as the finances are still important. But the club needs to recognise, contrary to what Daniel Levy said to the THST in their last meeting before COVID struck, that expenditure on players does carry a proportionate effect on achievement and to act accordingly. It's not the only determinant, but it is an important one.

TL-DR - it's not black and white re ENIC; there's good and bad to what they've done and therefore being on one side or the other precludes a balanced view; we do need to spend and we need to recognise that but also understand it's not the only issue.

 

[EastLondonYid]

Levy is a business man,and a very very good one, he should however be nowhere near appointments of coaches and certainly not players.

Whilst he does interfere in the recruitment of the above, we will be here again and again......i would hope a massive product like us could employ a qualified team who can identify what we need.

 

[shelfboy68]

The whole ENIC argument is a very knotty one. It's an area where a binary view will undermine validity.

Those who think that ENIC should no longer be involved with the club need to recognise that they have fundamentally changed the status of the club outside of what has happened on the pitch. There are undoubtedly positives and successes that they 100% should be given credit for. Some may argue what's the use of having world-class facilities and a world-class stadium if we don't invest in the playing squad, and that's certainly a valid and important point to make. But what that (again binary) view does is suggest that one is mutually inclusive of the other at the precise same time.

Likewise, those who state that ENIC's skill in finance automatically qualifies them as having provided success outside of what happens on the pitch need to recognise the primary purpose of a football club - which is to play football and strive to win things. That's what sport is about - competition. The old adage about participation being more important is, to my mind, invalid and actually diametrically opposed to the idea of sport. Games are about participation, sport is about competition. Chess can be played by someone like me as a game, but then there are those who play chess as a sport and the competition is as fierce in those arenas as tennis or rugby or.... football. So ENIC's record when it comes to finances and infrastructure may be excellent, but that doesn't equate to them being good on on-the-pitch issues.

What is key, however, is that current form right now doesn't bear up to either argument. The problems at Spurs are cultural and could be a function of ENIC's approach but not necessarily directly caused by them, if that makes sense.

We are at a watershed moment. And I think we're bordering on crisis because what ENIC have failed to do is fully recognise the inherent weakness of the club and address it. I don't feel that disqualifies them from running this club, but that they need to have a fundamental reappraisal of their governance of the club, the key aspect of which is the the shape they want the footballing side of things to take.

I, as I've stated, believe that Mourinho is not the wrong person for this club. I feel he has all the tools within himself and his staff to bring success to this club. However, he needs to be given carte blanche to do with the squad exactly what he feels needs to be done - a refresh and reboot. No player is safe, except Kane and Sonny. Whoever needs to be shipped out apart from them must be allowed to be sold regardless of ENIC's view. This will enable a clearing of the decks and bringing in players that are not affected by the malaise that has surrounded us for the last three years (and before that too, to be honest, but the last three years are where it's come into sharpest focus).

There is, of course, scope to impose some limits on expenditure as the finances are still important. But the club needs to recognise, contrary to what Daniel Levy said to the THST in their last meeting before COVID struck, that expenditure on players does carry a proportionate effect on achievement and to act accordingly. It's not the only determinant, but it is an important one.

TL-DR - it's not black and white re ENIC; there's good and bad to what they've done and therefore being on one side or the other precludes a balanced view; we do need to spend and we need to recognise that but also understand it's not the only issue.

Mate this is a very good post but we have known for years that levy and enic are great maybe even the best at doing the financial side of things.
But on the football front they are simply shit and hold this club back with their flawed philosophy, as for watershed moment we have been here before and nothing changes.
Unless enic decide to sell up we are stuck with this cycle of management for years to come, no point in having the best facilities when at the core of the business is fundamentally flawed year after year.

 

[rez9000]

Mate this is a very good post but we have known for years that levy and enic are great maybe even the best at doing the financial side of things.
But on the football front they are simply shit and hold this club back with their flawed philosophy, as for watershed moment we have been here before and nothing changes.
Unless enic decide to sell up we are stuck with this cycle of management for years to come, no point in having the best facilities when at the core of the business is fundamentally flawed year after year.

I think there's more at stake now, shelfy - and that adds pressure on them. We've done the stadium build, we've set out our stall, and yet we're in crisis. I have no argument with the idea that they've not done a good job of managing the football side of things - I think it's been... unfocused, if we want to put it charitably.

But there really is nowhere else for Levy to hide now. He has to now sort out the governance of the club - decide how he wants to proceed in terms of finances on the business side and football on the operations side. If he fails, the rumblings we're hearing is that Uncle Joe may start getting an itchy trigger finger.

The reason I'm not an ENIC-outer right now is that they've not yet had the chance to really demonstrate if the deprioritising of the footballing side was due to the focus on the stadium. From now on, we will get answers to that question.

 

[shelfboy68]

I think there's more at stake now, shelfy - and that adds pressure on them. We've done the stadium build, we've set out our stall, and yet we're in crisis. I have no argument with the idea that they've not done a good job of managing the football side of things - I think it's been... unfocused, if we want to put it charitably.

But there really is nowhere else for Levy to hide now. He has to now sort out the governance of the club - decide how he wants to proceed in terms of finances on the business side and football on the operations side. If he fails, the rumblings we're hearing is that Uncle Joe may start getting an itchy trigger finger.

The reason I'm not an ENIC-outer right now is that they've not yet had the chance to really demonstrate if the deprioritising of the footballing side was due to the focus on the stadium. From now on, we will get answers to that question.

Mate I'm not sure I can be bothered to wait around and find out anymore like many others I have supported this club for decades but it's grating on me the continuous waiting.
My dad is also a lifelong supporter who is now well into his late eighties and struggling for health these days, I thought when we got to the CL final that I would get one last shot of glory with him before the worst happens.
Now I see a club adrift completely lost at sea with nothing on the horizon it's absolute carnage what is going on and happens all too often.
So now we are out of Europe, won't get top four probably won't get top six, so no Europe next year either, there is a cup final coming up which will see us losing finalist's yet again.
If we are honest how the fuck will players like Kane and son want to stay at a mid table club such as ours because having the best canteen in the league isn't going to be enough for ambitious players.

 

[rez9000]

Mate I'm not sure I can be bothered to wait around and find out anymore like many others I have supported this club for decades but it's grating on me the continuous waiting.
My dad is also a lifelong supporter who is now well into his late eighties and struggling for health these days, I thought when we got to the CL final that I would get one last shot of glory with him before the worst happens.
Now I see a club adrift completely lost at sea with nothing on the horizon it's absolute carnage what is going on and happens all too often.
So now we are out of Europe, won't get top four probably won't get top six, so no Europe next year either, there is a cup final coming up which will see us losing finalist's yet again.
If we are honest how the fuck will players like Kane and son want to stay at a mid table club such as ours because having the best canteen in the league isn't going to be enough for ambitious players.

I sympathise completely. As I say, it's really now because there's nowhere else to hide that I can gird my loins and hold out a little longer. Not too long. Only a madman would say another twenty years. Three years, I'd say.

But, that's also with immediate evidence that they are going to take the crisis situation we're in now well in hand first. I'm not willing to wait three years for them to show a cogent plan of action to cover the next three years and how we're going to navigate it.

I've made my feelings about Mourinho clear - I think he should be given the time and resources needed to solve the current playing staff problems and I'd like to see immediate evidence that they'll do that. If they choose to sack him, so be it, but I would still want to see clear signs that they are taking the footballing side of things just as seriously if they get rid of him.

If they sack him and appoint someone who's just going to go with the flow - our own version of OGS, if you will, then my patience will probably have run it's course. In that scenario, I may start being more active with the Supporter's Trust as a channel to ask questions of the club and the hierarchy.

 

[Wsussexspur]

The hard truth is we are stuck with Enic and Levy. We can complain and moan about them as much as we want they aren’t going anywhere for along time.

Place is going to be nasty for first game of next season if things haven’t changed dramatically behind the scenes. Remember we pay the highest ticket prices in Europe for the pleasure of watching this shit! Also as sure as eggs are eggs those tickets prices are likely to increase over the coming years as the club try to claw back the loses from the previous 18 months or so (which it will be by time next season starts) due to covid.

 

[shelfboy68]

The hard truth is we are stuck with Enic and Levy. We can complain and moan about them as much as we want they aren’t going anywhere for along time.

Place is going to be nasty for first game of next season if things haven’t changed dramatically behind the scenes. Remember we pay the highest ticket prices in Europe for the pleasure of watching this shit! Also as sure as eggs are eggs those tickets prices are likely to increase over the coming years as the club try to claw back the loses from the previous 18 months or so (which it will be by time next season starts) due to covid.

Sadly yes we are stuck with them and will be until they can get the price they want for the club.

 

[SUIYHA]

ENIC pre-2016 - best owners in the league that didn't own an oilfield by an absolute mile

ENIC post-2016 - a series of major failures


That's all there is to it really. In a role like Levy's you have to take gambles from time to time - some of them like switching to a Director of Football structure when everyone said that wouldn't work in England, or sacking our fancy continental coach with a trophy-laden CV in Juande Ramos to replace him with 'Arry Redknapp from the East End massively paid off. But he didn't want to gamble by splashing out on Fernandes. Didn't want to gamble on Mane. And he did gamble on Mourinho which has been an unmitigated disaster so far.

He's no idiot and I'll always respect him for modernising the infrastructure of the club and for taking us from where we were in 2004 to where we were in the late 2010s when the stadium opened, but just like players and managers, maybe chairmen also have their sell by date...

 

[buckley]

ENIC = fantastic at everything money wise
ENIC and Spurs = a big disappointment
I do not go to the spurs ground to watch money I go to watch football .
Before anybody keeps going on about the training ground and the new stadium .
I would have been happy to stay at the old WHL especially if I could watch the last season unbeaten as a way to play .
As for training they could train on hackney marshes if they played the football I want to watch .
We still as a club have something like a billion pound debt to be payed for I just do not get the "ENIC are great "followers .
Having said all my problems with them I could forgive and forget all my angst if they can do just one small thing that seems to be unreachable namely sign the right manager to play the right kind of football I dont expect to win everything going I just want to enjoy watching Tottenham Hotspur play football as opposed to this dross that Mourhino is serving up the problem is apparently its all the players fault not the managers . You could not make it up .

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

They could do. But do you really trust Levy.

Let's look at his successful appointments.

Jol - Was brought in as an assistant coach and someone to bridge between Santini and Arnesen. Given the job cause Santini quit.

Redknapp - Was brought in as a firefighter to get us out of the relegation mire we were facing and ended up getting more out of the players than expected so stuck around.

Poch - Apparently forced by Lewis as Levy wanted Van Gaal.

So, not exactly fully thought out appointments or appointments made by preference.

It genuinely puzzles me that some fans are determined to believe that whenever Levy apparently gets a decision right, it's only by accident or because he's been overruled!

Regardless of how BMJ was appointed, all that matters is that he was appointed. And even if BMJ was Arnesen's choice rather than Levy's, the fact remains that Arnesen was Levy's choice. Same end result.

Where do you get this idea that Redknapp was only supposed to be a fire fighting stop gap? Sure, Levy desperately needed a quick and dramatic turnaround in form. But that's not at all the same as looking to make a short term appointment.

As to Van Gaal, yes, he was Levy's first choice because he had an incredible CV and because he was available. But he chose Manchester United. So Levy had to look elsewhere. As to Levy being forced by Joe Lewis to hire Poch, I don't believe that for a second. My recollection is that Levy was already a big admirer of Poch and what he had achieved at Southampton. I'd be surprised if Lewis had even heard of Poch!

Listen, I too doubt Levy's judgement in this respect. But, truth be told, there are very few (if any) chairmen / owners / boards of directors who do consistently get such appointments right.

Now, we could get Nagelsmann. And he could so well and have us back in the CL. But the way the club is run we always have this inevitably of seriously dropping off.

"Inevitability"? Nothing is inevitable. Other than death and taxes, of course. To the extent that there is truth in what you say, it isn't that we "seriously drop off" but rather that we always seem to hit a ceiling that we fail to break through.

Wasted chance 1. Got CL football with Redknapp, had a good CL run and with a bit more of a push could have been back in it the following two years - whixh would have given us the platform.

Agreed. Although, I also blame Redknapp for making eyes at the FA rather than keeping them on the metaphorical ball that was Tottenham's promising 2011-12 season.

Wasted chance 2 - Pushed Leicester for the title and were certainly on the up. Next season promised to be special. Spent the entire window being linked to decent players and ended up with Nkodou and Sissoko. Penny pinched on Jannssen and Nkodou when we could have pushed the boat out for Zaha. Beaten to the title by Chelsea because we didn't quite have enough quality options off the bench.

I don't disagree. Nevertheless, we had a fantastic season and a points haul that would, in many other seasons, have seen us win the title. Had Chelsea not had the luxury of no European involvement, who knows what might have happened?

Wasted chance 3 - Got to the CL final, a chance for the club to use that to go again or have some wholesale changes. Whilst the club did spend massive on Ndombele, they also spent 3 months to get the Lo Celso deal done and dragged the Sessegnon deal out over TWO YEARS! Only Lo Celso and Ndombele came in as first team players and Ndombele wasnt at it.

There was no urgency to get the Lo Celso deal over the line any earlier. Because of his involvement in the Copa America, and the requirement for a summer break, he couldn't have started to train with us any earlier than he did. And the three months of negotiations with Betis resulted in a plan that saved us.....I can't remember now.......£10m? £15m? £20m? Whichever, it was a huge amount.

As to dragging the Sessegnon deal out over two years.....I guess that that's one way of putting it. Another would be to say that we maintained a a long term interest in Sessegnon but that he wasn't ready to leave Fulham; Fulham weren't ready to let him go; and we weren't ready to attempt to accommodate him in our first team......until 2019.

And yes, Ndombele wasn't at it at all when he first arrived at the club. But how is that Levy's fault?

Perez spoke about 'missed signings' so you have to wonder which players the club didn't manage to sign that window. Dybala? Fernandes? Whoever...another pissed up opportunity.

This has been done to death but Fernandes was the fallback option in the event that we didn't sign Lo Celso. And Dybala was a Levy special that failed to materialise because of contractual complications that even defeated free spending Man Utd - which says it all.

I said in the window that Hojbjerg, whilst a smart signing, was nothing to praise the club for. It was an easy signing to do.

Even Bale seems like it was something that came about because other parties relented and accepted compromises, meaning we didn't exactly push the boat out.

Meanwhile we refuse to go anywhere near the valuation of a player (Skriniar) who would have drastically improved our defence but we'll spunk 15m up the wall on a RB who has never been anything more than average.

Agreed on Hojbjerg.

Of course we still pushed the boat out for Bale. By all accounts, we are paying the best part of half his wages. That puts him right up there alongside Kane as our highest paid player. Or maybe even higher.

Doherty has been a dreadful signing. But that's not on Levy.

As to Skriniar, I seem to remember that we offered something in the region of £30-40m for a player who was out of favour at Inter and that they kept moving the goalposts. I agree that he would have been a great signing (though, the way things have gone, I think we would still have imploded). But we are in the midst of a global pandemic. Revenues will be down by some £200m. We are already carrying debt of over £800m. And, at the time of negotiations, there was no knowing how long the pandemic might continue. We still don't know. So I can understand why Levy refused to go any higher - especially after having already delivered what we all believed to be an excellent window in the circumstances.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

ENIC = fantastic at everything money wise
this dross that Mourhino is serving up the problem is apparently its all the players fault not the managers . You could not make it up .

Except nobody sensible is saying that.

So you just did make it up.

 

[mumfordspur]

I'm sure you can point out all the other mid-table teams with gloried histories who've built state of the art, 60k stadia with the capacity to host all sorts of events and drive their clubs forward in the space of ten years then. Because I'm pretty sure we're the only ones who've done so, full stop.

Levy does need to take some share of the blame. He shouldn't have agreed to the contract he gave Jose. And he maybe should have made more decisions which would have been deeply unpopular but proven correct e.g. overruled Poch to sign second-choice targets in those empty windows, or sold someone at their peak ala Coutinho to fund investment.

Other times though, they get blamed for stuff completely out of their control, like some transfers universally backed at the time not working out (only half of transfers at most ever do - it's just part of the game). Or for struggling to sell players - this is a consistent problem with the PL being so rich that the 20th English club is the 30th richest in the world, meaning there's a very small pool who can afford to pay PL level wages. And on the whole, I think they've done more impressive jobs than any comparable board - the only alternative you could even argue is preferable IMO is someone willing to splash infinite money for dark ulterior motives.

Jose was a big mistake, but for all the talk of who'll replace him, I'd look at the rest of the league, how badly fucked some clubs have been, and end up not feeling too optimistic about replacing Levy. It's a bad mistake, but it's time to cut losses, move on, and see if we can redeem the season - with a new manager bounce it's not out of the question that we could still get 4th and a trophy. COYS

I bet those other mid tablers cant wait to get their white elephants up
I will never forget the last games at the old place and as for settling our home games in that red shithole. Unforgiveable.