ENIC...

[shelfboy68]

I wouldn't say that there is anything prescient about it at all.

All onions, I know, but I'd say that ENIC have done very well by Spurs fans, on balance. We are an unrecognisably better club in every way than we were when they took over. The only thing that's missing is silverware, save for that one League Cup win. But our luck / mental fortitude must surely take a turn for the better in those huge games and moments eventually.

Save for Manchester City, for obvious reasons, there is only one club that has surpassed Spurs for beating the overwhelming odds (Sky 4 cartel; oil money owners) facing challengers to the top 4 since ENIC took over............ and that's Leicester. Their title win will probably never be surpassed for implausibility. But we shouldn't forget that everything that season - absolutely every last, little thing - fell in their favour. Not least the incredibly unlikely coincidence that all the top clubs simultaneously chose that season to have a stinker. We were considerably better in 2016-17 than Leicester had been the previous season but Chelsea were even better still. So we won nothing. Tough luck.

Nevertheless, we have been there or thereabouts, routinely challenging for top 4 and silverware for the past decade. We played in a Champions League final - something I never dreamed possible when ENIC took over. We have the best stadium in Europe - which seemed equally impossible. We have the foundations from which to launch sustained challenges for silverware going forward.

Obviously, ENIC are no Abramovich or Mansour. They haven't given us what those other owners have given to Chelsea and City fans respectively. But such owners are the exception rather than the rule. It's not really a fair comparison. At the other end of the spectrum, we don't have to compare ENIC to anything as extreme as Ridsdale at Leeds, as is the cliche. We can, however, legitimately compare them to the various regimes at similarly sized clubs like Everton, Newcastle and Aston Villa to know that we have actually been pretty fortunate.

Sure, if it was a beauty contest, ENIC are certainly no 10. But they are a solid 7, or maybe even a borderline 8.

And I know that none of you would kick an 8 out of bed.

I think your a bit late with your job application to join the board at Tottenham mate as the American fella has now got the gig to try and bring sponsorship in to a failing club.
However I can see how lyrical you have been waxing over Mr levy and his successful tenure during the last 21 years.
I have to be honest mate it hasn't been much to boast about, as the season Leicester where the title was quite rightly when all the big clubs took a year off including spurs.
It was quite the failure losing at home to them drawing with west Bromwich and losing at west ham again then the classic Tottenham being 2-0 to the good at Chelsea only for their arseholes to drop as usual.
Since then it has been the traditional lost fa cup semi finals which must now be a record, or if we are lucky to get through to a final the usual outcome of defeat is had.
Thankfully we have a cup final this season to look forward to especially as we are bang in form with around two wins in about 10 games which is stonking form.
So another final defeat looms and the prospect of yet more waiting around for the club to get it's shit right both appeals and delights us all, hark I hear you call we need to be patient as we have been for decades waiting and waiting for success to come because we might get called entitled.
But when we pay colossal prices for the price of failure and poor management all-round I think we are entitled to a lot better.

 

[IamSpurtacus]

I wouldn't say that there is anything prescient about it at all.

All onions, I know, but I'd say that ENIC have done very well by Spurs fans, on balance. We are an unrecognisably better club in every way than we were when they took over. The only thing that's missing is silverware, save for that one League Cup win. But our luck / mental fortitude must surely take a turn for the better in those huge games and moments eventually.

Save for Manchester City, for obvious reasons, there is only one club that has surpassed Spurs for beating the overwhelming odds (Sky 4 cartel; oil money owners) facing challengers to the top 4 since ENIC took over............ and that's Leicester. Their title win will probably never be surpassed for implausibility. But we shouldn't forget that everything that season - absolutely every last, little thing - fell in their favour. Not least the incredibly unlikely coincidence that all the top clubs simultaneously chose that season to have a stinker. We were considerably better in 2016-17 than Leicester had been the previous season but Chelsea were even better still. So we won nothing. Tough luck.

Nevertheless, we have been there or thereabouts, routinely challenging for top 4 and silverware for the past decade. We played in a Champions League final - something I never dreamed possible when ENIC took over. We have the best stadium in Europe - which seemed equally impossible. We have the foundations from which to launch sustained challenges for silverware going forward.

Obviously, ENIC are no Abramovich or Mansour. They haven't given us what those other owners have given to Chelsea and City fans respectively. But such owners are the exception rather than the rule. It's not really a fair comparison. At the other end of the spectrum, we don't have to compare ENIC to anything as extreme as Ridsdale at Leeds, as is the cliche. We can, however, legitimately compare them to the various regimes at similarly sized clubs like Everton, Newcastle and Aston Villa to know that we have actually been pretty fortunate.

Sure, if it was a beauty contest, ENIC are certainly no 10. But they are a solid 7, or maybe even a borderline 8.

And I know that none of you would kick an 8 out of bed.

Appreciate your perspective and i agree with the sentiment - we've come a long way from the Sugar days, or the near bankruptcy of the early 90s

However, my point still stands - the football team has taken a back seat to the property business.

We have a once in a lifetime striker who - if he stays - will break all club records, who we got lucky to have in our ranks. Which other youth players have gone on to muster?

What is our discernible transfer strategy? Moura and Aurier were unwanted cast offs, Sissoko an overpriced relegation ejection, N'Jie and N'Koudou bargain bin fillers

if we "focus on youth" why don't we have players of the calibre of Dortmund?

I'm not suggesting we can or should compete with City or Chelsea financially given their resources, but we've won one pot in 20 years of ENIC ownership.

Not "doing a Leeds" shouldn't be the benchmark when the average season ticket price is one of the highest in the country

Can we use the base laid down by Levy and ENIC to elevate the club further? Maybe? But until we have a coherent strategy for the football team that isn't governed by the value of surrounding property prices or the "franchise value" of the stadium, the necessary focus for success will undermine our chances of winning

 

[shelfboy68]

Appreciate your perspective and i agree with the sentiment - we've come a long way from the Sugar days, or the near bankruptcy of the early 90s

However, my point still stands - the football team has taken a back seat to the property business.

We have a once in a lifetime striker who - if he stays - will break all club records, who we got lucky to have in our ranks. Which other youth players have gone on to muster?

What is our discernible transfer strategy? Moura and Aurier were unwanted cast offs, Sissoko an overpriced relegation ejection, N'Jie and N'Koudou bargain bin fillers

if we "focus on youth" why don't we have players of the calibre of Dortmund?

I'm not suggesting we can or should compete with City or Chelsea financially given their resources, but we've won one pot in 20 years of ENIC ownership.

Not "doing a Leeds" shouldn't be the benchmark when the average season ticket price is one of the highest in the country

Can we use the base laid down by Levy and ENIC to elevate the club further? Maybe? But until we have a coherent strategy for the football team that isn't governed by the value of surrounding property prices or the "franchise value" of the stadium, the necessary focus for success will undermine our chances of winning

The Leeds term is sadly always trotted out as a by word for not being ambitious enough in other words excuses.
The boards business policy is deeply flawed it hasn't to date brought anything tangible to the table in terms of club success and I doubt that it will.
The overriding fear now is more management upheaval along with several transfer windows trying to put this right.
By then other teams will be better placed for success leaving some to conclude that it wasn't Enics fault we are ninth but instead bad timing or the wrong year on the Chinese calendar or something.

 

[Wine Gum]

The surrounding property prices in the High Road West area where ENIC now have planning permission to build on the Goods Yard and old Sainsbury’s sites will be of no financial benefit to the club that I can see. The club purchased the land (restricting its funding for transfers) then sold to Bahamas based TH Property Ltd for the current value at the time. Planning Permission has since been achieved and the gain in value will no longer go to the club. The sale at the time was explained to clear club debt but ENIC could have done that themselves. Lillywhite House was also sold off for the same reason.

 

[Stamford]

The surrounding property prices in the High Road West area where ENIC now have planning permission to build on the Goods Yard and old Sainsbury’s sites will be of no financial benefit to the club that I can see. The club purchased the land (restricting its funding for transfers) then sold to Bahamas based TH Property Ltd for the current value at the time. Planning Permission has since been achieved and the gain in value will no longer go to the club. The sale at the time was explained to clear club debt but ENIC could have done that themselves. Lillywhite House was also sold off for the same reason.

Is that true? I've always wondered whether the club would receive the money

 

[Wine Gum]

Is that true? I've always wondered whether the club would receive the money

I cannot see how they will benefit when ownership is no longer with the Club. I think the planned developments adjacent to the South Stand still sit within Club ownership but they seem a long way off being developed.

The Goods Yard site is under the ownership of GOODSYARD TOTTENHAM LIMITED and the old Sainsbury’s site is under the ownership of HIGH ROAD WEST (TOTTENHAM) LIMITED, Companies House confirms that Donovan Gijsbertus Wijsmuller (based in Jersey) now has a significant control in both companies i.e. at least 25%. It appears that TH Property (ENIC) has already sold down part of it’s ownership to a development partner.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

I think your a bit late with your job application to join the board at Tottenham mate as the American fella has now got the gig to try and bring sponsorship in to a failing club.

Yawn.

Seriously, leave out the ad hominem fallacies, mate - trying to discredit arguments by implying an absence of impartiality. It's tedious. It's lazy. It's cowardly. Play the ball, not the man. I have always been respectful of your opinion even if I have disagreed with it. I would appreciate it if you would have the decency to show me the same courtesy.

However I can see how lyrical you have been waxing over Mr levy and his successful tenure during the last 21 years.

Ditto above. "Waxing lyrical"...........no, just objectively arguing a case. You disagree with it? Fine. Then disagree with it rather than this silliness.

I have to be honest mate it hasn't been much to boast about

That depends upon your starting premise. If you believe any or all of the following: that Spurs was already primed for success when ENIC took over; that we have faced modest competition for silverware ever since; that the challenge of closing the chasm (especially the financial chasm) that had grown between us and the top clubs was actually an easy one; that Chelsea and Man City winning the oil lottery had little impact on our odds of winning trophies; and, above all, that winning trophies is the only thing that matters, then agreed......our sorry return of just the one trophy over the past 20 years would decidedly be nothing to boast about. My starting premise, however, is somewhat different.

as the season Leicester where the title was quite rightly when all the big clubs took a year off including spurs. It was quite the failure losing at home to them drawing with west Bromwich and losing at west ham again then the classic Tottenham being 2-0 to the good at Chelsea only for their arseholes to drop as usual.

All valid points. But specifically ENIC's fault?

Since then it has been the traditional lost fa cup semi finals which must now be a record, or if we are lucky to get through to a final the usual outcome of defeat is had.

Ditto above.

Thankfully we have a cup final this season to look forward to especially as we are bang in form with around two wins in about 10 games which is stonking form. So another final defeat looms and the prospect of yet more waiting around for the club to get it's shit right both appeals and delights us all

Meh. Sarcasm.

hark I hear you call we need to be patient as we have been for decades waiting and waiting for success to come because we might get called entitled.

Straw man fallacy now? I've said nothing of the sort. Nor implied it. I merely responded to a posted quote from 20 years ago claiming that ENIC's takeover of the club would bode ill for Spurs fans. My conclusion was that, on balance and with hindsight, it didn't bode ill at all. We are objectively and undeniably in a far better place as a club than we were when ENIC took over. Is there a scenario in which we could have been in an even better place? Of course. But the fact that we aren't in that even better place doesn't mean that where we actually are represents an affirmation of the claim that ENIC's takeover did indeed bode ill. That is all.

But when we pay colossal prices for the price of failure and poor management all-round I think we are entitled to a lot better.

By all means, we should be demanding. But, once again, I wasn't arguing that we shouldn't be.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Appreciate your perspective and i agree with the sentiment - we've come a long way from the Sugar days, or the near bankruptcy of the early 90s

However, my point still stands - the football team has taken a back seat to the property business.

We have a once in a lifetime striker who - if he stays - will break all club records, who we got lucky to have in our ranks. Which other youth players have gone on to muster?

What is our discernible transfer strategy? Moura and Aurier were unwanted cast offs, Sissoko an overpriced relegation ejection, N'Jie and N'Koudou bargain bin fillers

if we "focus on youth" why don't we have players of the calibre of Dortmund?

I'm not suggesting we can or should compete with City or Chelsea financially given their resources, but we've won one pot in 20 years of ENIC ownership.

Not "doing a Leeds" shouldn't be the benchmark when the average season ticket price is one of the highest in the country

Can we use the base laid down by Levy and ENIC to elevate the club further? Maybe? But until we have a coherent strategy for the football team that isn't governed by the value of surrounding property prices or the "franchise value" of the stadium, the necessary focus for success will undermine our chances of winning

See, @shelfboy68? That is how to disagree.

@IamSpurtacus, I couldn't agree more that our transfer strategy is currently a mess - that is if we even have a strategy. Levy has to sort it out as a matter of urgency. It should, of course, go hand in hand with manager recruitment.

Also agreed about not doing a Leeds. It's absurd to present their catastrophic fall from grace as the only alternative to what we have done. However, to be clear, that is precisely why I specifically rejected setting it as the benchmark! At one end of the spectrum, I cited Chelsea and City and, in the other direction (but not at the extreme end - which is Leeds!), I cited the likes of Everton, Newcastle and Villa. All legitimate comparisons, I believe. All similarly sized clubs that were at the same level or higher than we were when ENIC took over.

I do disagree, though, that the team has taken a back seat to the property business. They have both been priorities. If it seems to you that ENIC are favouring capital projects over the team, then I would suggest that it is only because, as a matter of strict financial ideology, Levy will not take on significant debt to fund transfers but he will do so to fund property development. He sees the former as a fool's game but the latter as a valid and sensible means of growing the club and enabling it, in the long run, to compete financially.

 

[Stamford]

See, @shelfboy68? That is how to disagree.

@IamSpurtacus, I couldn't agree more that our transfer strategy is currently a mess - that is if we even have a strategy. Levy has to sort it out as a matter of urgency. It should, of course, go hand in hand with manager recruitment.

Also agreed about not doing a Leeds. It's absurd to present their catastrophic fall from grace as the only alternative to what we have done. However, to be clear, that is precisely why I specifically rejected setting it as the benchmark! At one end of the spectrum, I cited Chelsea and City and, in the other direction (but not at the extreme end - which is Leeds!), I cited the likes of Everton, Newcastle and Villa. All legitimate comparisons, I believe. All similarly sized clubs that were at the same level or higher than we were when ENIC took over.

I do disagree, though, that the team has taken a back seat to the property business. They have both been priorities. If it seems to you that ENIC are favouring capital projects over the team, then I would suggest that it is only because, as a matter of strict financial ideology, Levy will not take on significant debt to fund transfers but he will do so to fund property development. He sees the former as a fool's game but the latter as a valid and sensible means of growing the club and enabling it, in the long run, to compete financially.

Someone above has said though that the team does not benefit from the property business. I'm unsure what the truth am is

 

[titan]

I know this wishful thinking. But let me try to connect some dots.

The word in the NFL is that Jeff Bezos is looking to get a football team. We would be the perfect scenario for him:
Brand new state of the dual purpose stadium
If he were to purchase the club he would also probably negotiate for all the property in the area that the club owns
Stadium does not as of yet have naming rights, which would be huge for both and PL and NFL team

Just remember when Shahid Khan was trying to purchase Wembley, DL was pretty vocal on it being a bad idea. And Shadid Khan did kind of abruptly pull his offer off the table. Obviously because it would mean that he would be trying to move his NFL franchise over, and that would stop any other franchise from coming over.

We recently dealt with Amazon so would be well aware of the club and the setup. And NFL would easily sign off on our stadium being fit for purpose.

With the Amazon doc., having the manager with the largest profile and name recognition, and bring in the biggest marquee player we would be able to get both on the men and women's team. Our profile in the states cant be any bigger rn.

If there is one person that has the pockets to buy the club et al, aswell as pay the 1billion plus expansion fee it would be him. 2.5 billion for spurs and a billion for the expansion fee. Maybe a little over 3.5 billion for an NFL and a elite European football club, fuck it lets say 4 billion with admin cost. His return on investment would be pretty good very quickly. Especially now with the club taking on debt because of covid. Perfect time to make ENIC an offer they cant refuse.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

We are in a much better place than we were when ENIC took over, that's undeniable.

Yay. Woop woop. Cartwheels. Fistpumps, high fives and group chest bumps

aaaand it's Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur FC
We're by far in a better place, than we were with Sugar in

Levy, Levy 'giss a wave
Levy 'giss a wave

Oh when ENIC
finally cash in
Oh when ENIC finally cash in
I hope it's for, a big number
Oh when ENIC finally cash in

We are such fucking hypocrites. Massive. Page after page of 'The game is about Glory' and 'To Dare is to do', Nicholson & Blanchflower quoted left right and centre in the Mourinho hate threads yet some of those same people, with their romantic style views when it comes to our managers or the style of football we play are happy with 20 years of 'we're in a better position'. And lets be honest, when ENIC took over we were in such a state that a bumbling yokel could have put us in a better position

We demand a certain style and panache, glory and winning yet when it comes to his loftiness, there's a massive blind spot, the demand isn't about any of that, it's about fuck-all really, lets just coast along, always the promise of what's to come, the glow of being in a "better position", demanding this romantic stylised notion of Spurs from the manager and players while the owners get praise and even adulation because we're better off than we were twenty years ago. I mean, come on, yeah, well done, but isn't it about time they were put under some serious pressure to deliver what we all actually keep banging on about?

*runs away and hides from the seething mob

 

[hellava_tough]

We are in a much better place than we were when ENIC took over, that's undeniable.

Yay. Woop woop. Cartwheels. Fistpumps, high fives and group chest bumps

aaaand it's Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur FC
We're by far in a better place, than we were with Sugar in

Levy, Levy 'giss a wave
Levy 'giss a wave

Oh when ENIC
finally cash in
Oh when ENIC finally cash in
I hope it's for, a big number
Oh when ENIC finally cash in

We are such fucking hypocrites. Massive. Page after page of 'The game is about Glory' and 'To Dare is to do', Nicholson & Blanchflower quoted left right and centre in the Mourinho hate threads yet some of those same people, with their romantic style views when it comes to our managers or the style of football we play are happy with 20 years of 'we're in a better position'. And lets be honest, when ENIC took over we were in such a state that a bumbling yokel could have put us in a better position

We demand a certain style and panache, glory and winning yet when it comes to his loftiness, there's a massive blind spot, the demand isn't about any of that, it's about fuck-all really, lets just coast along, always the promise of what's to come, the glow of being in a "better position", demanding this romantic stylised notion of Spurs from the manager and players while the owners get praise and even adulation because we're better off than we were twenty years ago. I mean, come on, yeah, well done, but isn't it about time they were put under some serious pressure to deliver what we all actually keep banging on about?

*runs away and hides from the seething mob

I suppose the argument is that to achieve success and glory on the pitch, the physical and financial infrastructure has to be in place. This gives us a better chance of sustained glory.

ENIC/Levy had finally got us to a place where this infrastructure was ready and then the pandemic hit.

But you're right, going forward now in a post Covid world, ENIC/Levy have to start delivering cups and titles.

What I've said above is just the context of what has gone on over the past 20 years. It doesn't absolve ENIC/Levy from the mistakes they've made, or the slap dash way they've run certain areas of the club.

Personally, like many on here, I think Levy will need to step away from the footballing side of things if we're going to be a glory club again.

The guy's a builder, not a winner.

 

[hellava_tough]

I know this wishful thinking. But let me try to connect some dots.

The word in the NFL is that Jeff Bezos is looking to get a football team. We would be the perfect scenario for him:
Brand new state of the dual purpose stadium
If he were to purchase the club he would also probably negotiate for all the property in the area that the club owns
Stadium does not as of yet have naming rights, which would be huge for both and PL and NFL team

Just remember when Shahid Khan was trying to purchase Wembley, DL was pretty vocal on it being a bad idea. And Shadid Khan did kind of abruptly pull his offer off the table. Obviously because it would mean that he would be trying to move his NFL franchise over, and that would stop any other franchise from coming over.

We recently dealt with Amazon so would be well aware of the club and the setup. And NFL would easily sign off on our stadium being fit for purpose.

With the Amazon doc., having the manager with the largest profile and name recognition, and bring in the biggest marquee player we would be able to get both on the men and women's team. Our profile in the states cant be any bigger rn.

If there is one person that has the pockets to buy the club et al, aswell as pay the 1billion plus expansion fee it would be him. 2.5 billion for spurs and a billion for the expansion fee. Maybe a little over 3.5 billion for an NFL and a elite European football club, fuck it lets say 4 billion with admin cost. His return on investment would be pretty good very quickly. Especially now with the club taking on debt because of covid. Perfect time to make ENIC an offer they cant refuse.

Well, for the man who has everything, a London NFL franchise would certainly be unique. The only one in the world outside of the US and the first one in the world outside of the US.

But these stories and rumours crop up from time to time. If he was that interested in an NFL franchise, he could have bought it years ago, hired the best management team and told them to get on with it.

Here's hoping though!

 

[shelfboy68]

Yawn.

Seriously, leave out the ad hominem fallacies, mate - trying to discredit arguments by implying an absence of impartiality. It's tedious. It's lazy. It's cowardly. Play the ball, not the man. I have always been respectful of your opinion even if I have disagreed with it. I would appreciate it if you would have the decency to show me the same courtesy.



Ditto above. "Waxing lyrical"...........no, just objectively arguing a case. You disagree with it? Fine. Then disagree with it rather than this silliness.



That depends upon your starting premise. If you believe any or all of the following: that Spurs was already primed for success when ENIC took over; that we have faced modest competition for silverware ever since; that the challenge of closing the chasm (especially the financial chasm) that had grown between us and the top clubs was actually an easy one; that Chelsea and Man City winning the oil lottery had little impact on our odds of winning trophies; and, above all, that winning trophies is the only thing that matters, then agreed......our sorry return of just the one trophy over the past 20 years would decidedly be nothing to boast about. My starting premise, however, is somewhat different.



All valid points. But specifically ENIC's fault?



Ditto above.



Meh. Sarcasm.



Straw man fallacy now? I've said nothing of the sort. Nor implied it. I merely responded to a posted quote from 20 years ago claiming that ENIC's takeover of the club would bode ill for Spurs fans. My conclusion was that, on balance and with hindsight, it didn't bode ill at all. We are objectively and undeniably in a far better place as a club than we were when ENIC took over. Is there a scenario in which we could have been in an even better place? Of course. But the fact that we aren't in that even better place doesn't mean that where we actually are represents an affirmation of the claim that ENIC's takeover did indeed bode ill. That is all.



By all means, we should be demanding. But, once again, I wasn't arguing that we shouldn't be.

You have every right to have your opinion regarding the management or mis-management of the club and where you see it.
For me I don't get this we are in such a good place with enic nonsense, the club was on it's knees and was in the bottom half of the table the majority of the sugar term so anything above mid table was an improvement.
As a club of our size being in the top six on a regular basis should be the minimum expectation from the club and fan's perspective.
All enic have done is placed us back on par roughly where we were prior to sugars time in charge so nothing above and beyond.
Currently as it stands the club is in a mess languishing mid table and a laughing stock yet again with a manager who many dislike.
Like I said if you feel progress has been made then I'm pleased for you but I certainly have the right to counter that argument the way I see fit without abusing anyone.

 

[topper]

I suppose the argument is that to achieve success and glory on the pitch, the physical and financial infrastructure has to be in place. This gives us a better chance of sustained glory.

ENIC/Levy had finally got us to a place where this infrastructure was ready and then the pandemic hit.

But you're right, going forward now in a post Covid world, ENIC/Levy have to start delivering cups and titles.

What I've said above is just the context of what has gone on over the past 20 years. It doesn't absolve ENIC/Levy from the mistakes they've made, or the slap dash way they've run certain areas of the club.

Personally, like many on here, I think Levy will need to step away from the footballing side of things if we're going to be a glory club again.

The guy's a builder, not a winner.

And from this day onwards, and forever more, Daniel will be known as Bob

 

[buckley]

Apparently we are a billion pounds in debt albeit manageable . I would say you could take any premiership club or some championship clubs
And build them a new stadium and training ground over a twenty year period and they could be in the same position we are in . May be with more success on the playing field than we have had . Why all the adulation or backing of ENIC ? I dont get it ; the achievement of building the stadium and the training ground and be debt free would be truly worthy of praise but to do these things and have close to a billion pound debt well I just dont get the loyalty of some supporters for ENIC .
As I say they have built a brilliant infrastructure but it has been at no cost to them . I believe they are listed as an investment company but where is their investment the only investment I can see is the Tottenham's name used to obtain massive bank loans .
I realise that the stadium makes this debt manageable bit like all fans I want investment from an investment company on players .
For me this is similar to some extent to Man unt brought mainly with a bank loan and that loan was then transferred to the club putting it simply buy the club with your own money . At least the United people invest in players and plenty of them .
Obviously I dont really know about buisness finances but If you build a stadium and training ground that is some achievement at the same time saddle the club with a near million pound debt and it really calls this achievement into doubt of how big an achievement it really is .
If I am talking a load of rubbish perhaps those with knowledge of finance can explain why I am wrong to be not on the side of ENIC .

 

[spursfan77]

The surrounding property prices in the High Road West area where ENIC now have planning permission to build on the Goods Yard and old Sainsbury’s sites will be of no financial benefit to the club that I can see. The club purchased the land (restricting its funding for transfers) then sold to Bahamas based TH Property Ltd for the current value at the time. Planning Permission has since been achieved and the gain in value will no longer go to the club. The sale at the time was explained to clear club debt but ENIC could have done that themselves. Lillywhite House was also sold off for the same reason.

Lillywhite house is still owned by the group of companies under the ENIC umbrella, it wasn’t sold but transferred. Lets take that as an example. Why would they move it out of the ownership of the football club to a different company? It isn’t for the financial benefit of the club should that property be sold is it? It will be so ENIC can make money and not the club itself.

Extrapolate that to every development site where they expect to build property and ENIC are sitting on a huge pile of cash once development has been completed.

I suspect their plan is to build all the proposed developments and sell them all off except for the stadium. Once they have done that, then that will be the point the club will go up for sale.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

We’ve been close enough to silverware enough times in terms of semis, finals, and even 1/4s that by law of average we should’ve at heat had 3/4 trophies during Enics stewardship. That may not be dazzling but at the very least it would be better than every club bar the sides that were already streets ahead of us to start with. To me that suggests that while it’s true that Enic have screwed up a few key opportunities to move on, the issue has not been one of squad quality. This is only reinforced by the fact that Leicester, Wigan and Portsmouth managed to get silverware with their only attempts to in that time.

4 FA cup semis, 4 league cup finals, a champions league final, a champions league 1/4 final and a UEFA cup 1/4 final from memory (and other scattered 1/4s on both FA and league cup, but I’m not counting those so much as there’s fewer games to play to do so) as well as 4 seasons in which we had a decent shot at the Premiership title going into the second half of the season.

Ultimately, Enic are the constant, rather than the managers or the players, so I see why it’s easy to correlate their activities negatively with success (or positively with lack of success) but if they’ve built up manager-squad combos and provided training facilities capable enough to get this close this often the I really don’t think the lack of any silverware can be attributed to them. What can be, fairly, levelled at Enic is the fact that we’ve three times got to a position where can really kick on, and they’ve not invested appropriately at those points, with us always going backwards as a result. However, each peak has always surpassed the last, so hopefully the next peak is something big and shiny.

I agree that 1 secondary competition win in 20 years is bad. In think that it’s mitigated somewhat when you look at where we were and where we are, and I think that Enic have provided the environment to have achieved more in terms silverware. I’m more critical of the fact that, even with how much higher we’ve reached in overall terms compared to what they inherited, we could’ve got here earlier and by now be doing even better, and been a real force as opposed to last decades equivalent of Hall/ Shephard’s Newcastle.

 

[Wine Gum]

Lillywhite house is still owned by the group of companies under the ENIC umbrella, it wasn’t sold but transferred. Lets take that as an example. Why would they move it out of the ownership of the football club to a different company? It isn’t for the financial benefit of the club should that property be sold is it? It will be so ENIC can make money and not the club itself.

Extrapolate that to every development site where they expect to build property and ENIC are sitting on a huge pile of cash once development has been completed.

I suspect their plan is to build all the proposed developments and sell them all off except for the stadium. Once they have done that, then that will be the point the club will go up for sale.

The property sales where on an "arms length" basis. i.e. fair market value. Correct, the club will not benefit from planning or development gain.

"The Club has undertaken a review of its property holdings in order to determine the essential core properties required to deliver the new stadium, with non-core properties, that are excess to requirements, being sold and the proceeds used to pay down debt secured against those properties.

As a result, Phase 1 of the NDP and a number of properties to the west of the High Road have been divested, at arm's length, to a Group company, TH Property Limited a subsidiary of ENIC International (‘’ENIC’’), the Company’s principal shareholder. This has been agreed through a process of independent valuations that has been approved by the Club’s independent Non-Executive Directors.

ENIC has subsequently financed the Phase 1 development through to completion which includes the Supermarket, commercial space and incorporates the northern access podium for the stadium development."

 

[Metalhead]

The Leeds term is sadly always trotted out as a by word for not being ambitious enough in other words excuses.
The boards business policy is deeply flawed it hasn't to date brought anything tangible to the table in terms of club success and I doubt that it will.
The overriding fear now is more management upheaval along with several transfer windows trying to put this right.
By then other teams will be better placed for success leaving some to conclude that it wasn't Enics fault we are ninth but instead bad timing or the wrong year on the Chinese calendar or something.

I totally agree. I think that anyone who uses the Leeds analogy to defend the club's transfer spend policy should make a donation to SC by way of a 'swear box'.