ENIC...

[Metalhead]

I know this wishful thinking. But let me try to connect some dots.

The word in the NFL is that Jeff Bezos is looking to get a football team. We would be the perfect scenario for him:
Brand new state of the dual purpose stadium
If he were to purchase the club he would also probably negotiate for all the property in the area that the club owns
Stadium does not as of yet have naming rights, which would be huge for both and PL and NFL team

Just remember when Shahid Khan was trying to purchase Wembley, DL was pretty vocal on it being a bad idea. And Shadid Khan did kind of abruptly pull his offer off the table. Obviously because it would mean that he would be trying to move his NFL franchise over, and that would stop any other franchise from coming over.

We recently dealt with Amazon so would be well aware of the club and the setup. And NFL would easily sign off on our stadium being fit for purpose.

With the Amazon doc., having the manager with the largest profile and name recognition, and bring in the biggest marquee player we would be able to get both on the men and women's team. Our profile in the states cant be any bigger rn.

If there is one person that has the pockets to buy the club et al, aswell as pay the 1billion plus expansion fee it would be him. 2.5 billion for spurs and a billion for the expansion fee. Maybe a little over 3.5 billion for an NFL and a elite European football club, fuck it lets say 4 billion with admin cost. His return on investment would be pretty good very quickly. Especially now with the club taking on debt because of covid. Perfect time to make ENIC an offer they cant refuse.

I think it would be a f*cking amazing situation if it happened. Even if it didn't - a developing commercial relationship would be good too.

 

[DiVaio]

I think it would be a f*cking amazing situation if it happened. Even if it didn't - a developing commercial relationship would be good too.

It really wouldn't and not sure how anyone can find any evidence from anything that Bezos does that he would spend billions to buy a club and then he would spend millions every year to buy players which is ultimately what the fans are dreaming from new owners.

 

[Metalhead]

It really wouldn't and not sure how anyone can find any evidence from anything that Bezos does that he would spend billions to buy a club and then he would spend millions every year to buy players which is ultimately what the fans are dreaming from new owners.

I'm not saying that Bezos would be some kind of sugar daddy but I can see the commercial possibilities in either ownership or a close commercial relationship. Overall, I think that ENIC have done a good job and I'd take them any day over owners that are connected to foreign governments with shady human rights records but it would be interesting to see where an owner like Bezos would take us. Couldn't see it happening though. More likely, DL will continue to explore the development of commercial opportunities through the likes of Amazon.

 

[KingKay]

Can’t see Amazon buying us due to the conflict of interest with the broadcasting rights. Surprised that no one seems to acknowledge this.

 

[JimmyG2]

If Amazon did football
I bet their delivery
would be better.

 

[spursfan77]

The property sales where on an "arms length" basis. i.e. fair market value. Correct, the club will not benefit from planning or development gain.

"The Club has undertaken a review of its property holdings in order to determine the essential core properties required to deliver the new stadium, with non-core properties, that are excess to requirements, being sold and the proceeds used to pay down debt secured against those properties.

As a result, Phase 1 of the NDP and a number of properties to the west of the High Road have been divested, at arm's length, to a Group company, TH Property Limited a subsidiary of ENIC International (‘’ENIC’’), the Company’s principal shareholder. This has been agreed through a process of independent valuations that has been approved by the Club’s independent Non-Executive Directors.

ENIC has subsequently financed the Phase 1 development through to completion which includes the Supermarket, commercial space and incorporates the northern access podium for the stadium development."

The prices they sold they property it should be available in their accounts then. If, as I suspect, they did the much more sensible thing and just transferred it within the group of companies, then they don’t have to actually purchase it, but the transfer would be subject to both stamp duty and capital gains tax (if there is any). I’m happy to be corrected by an accountant or property lawyer, but that is the process available as far as I am aware and that is what they mean when using the terms arms length and independent valuations (which you require in order to know the value of the property for the tax purposes I mentioned above).

Basically what it means by transferring the properties in this way is that the money doesn’t go to the club to buy new players, it goes to ENIC directly. This might be for two reasons. One, they want the money themselves, they are the owners, carried out the development, took the risk, it’s their choice. Two it could have something to do with FFP and whether money from property transactions can be used to buy players - I don’t see why it can’t, it’s income generated by the club.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

The surrounding property prices in the High Road West area where ENIC now have planning permission to build on the Goods Yard and old Sainsbury’s sites will be of no financial benefit to the club that I can see. The club purchased the land (restricting its funding for transfers) then sold to Bahamas based TH Property Ltd for the current value at the time. Planning Permission has since been achieved and the gain in value will no longer go to the club. The sale at the time was explained to clear club debt but ENIC could have done that themselves. Lillywhite House was also sold off for the same reason.

I cannot see how they will benefit when ownership is no longer with the Club. I think the planned developments adjacent to the South Stand still sit within Club ownership but they seem a long way off being developed.

The Goods Yard site is under the ownership of GOODSYARD TOTTENHAM LIMITED and the old Sainsbury’s site is under the ownership of HIGH ROAD WEST (TOTTENHAM) LIMITED, Companies House confirms that Donovan Gijsbertus Wijsmuller (based in Jersey) now has a significant control in both companies i.e. at least 25%. It appears that TH Property (ENIC) has already sold down part of it’s ownership to a development partner.

The property sales where on an "arms length" basis. i.e. fair market value. Correct, the club will not benefit from planning or development gain.

"The Club has undertaken a review of its property holdings in order to determine the essential core properties required to deliver the new stadium, with non-core properties, that are excess to requirements, being sold and the proceeds used to pay down debt secured against those properties.

As a result, Phase 1 of the NDP and a number of properties to the west of the High Road have been divested, at arm's length, to a Group company, TH Property Limited a subsidiary of ENIC International (‘’ENIC’’), the Company’s principal shareholder. This has been agreed through a process of independent valuations that has been approved by the Club’s independent Non-Executive Directors.

ENIC has subsequently financed the Phase 1 development through to completion which includes the Supermarket, commercial space and incorporates the northern access podium for the stadium development."

Yes, a number of properties were sold back in 2014. But that doesn't mean that the club didn't benefit. It sold them on at a good profit and, in doing so (and along with a £40m loan from ENIC that was subsequently converted into equity), Spurs cleared all debt that it had hitherto been carrying as a consequence of acquiring the real estate upon which the stadium is built, and the project's associated planning and development costs. That was crucial. Because without clearing that debt, it is unlikely that the club could have secured the necessary funding for the stadium construction.

Furthermore, even if the club doesn't benefit directly from the subsequent development of those properties that were divested, it will still benefit indirectly as a consequence of the regeneration of the area as a whole - be that in terms of making the stadium a more attractive venue year round or in terms of increasing the value of the club's future enabling development to the south of the stadium.

Lastly, I'm not sure that you're entirely correct about the Goodsyard site or various others (500 White Hart Lane, for instance). The planning applications for each have been / are very much in the name of and being driven by the club - not by an ENIC subsidiary or by any other third party. Which makes it quite clear that Spurs do indeed retain a significant interest in those properties and stand to benefit directly as a consequence of any development.

 

[Gspurs11]

Can’t see Amazon buying us due to the conflict of interest with the broadcasting rights. Surprised that no one seems to acknowledge this.

Think this has been mentioned before and it was suggested Bezos would have to buy the club as a private individual rather than through Amazon, which is now actually possible as he's stepping down as CEO. Doubt it would happen, personally.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Someone above has said though that the team does not benefit from the property business. I'm unsure what the truth am is

Please see my response to Wine Gum above.

In addition to that, the important thing to remember is that the overwhelming majority of the club's property dealings have been directly related to the footballing side of the club's business - principally the stadium and the training ground. Any attempt to claim that these two projects weren't for the benefit of the club would clearly be absurd.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

We are in a much better place than we were when ENIC took over, that's undeniable.

Yay. Woop woop. Cartwheels. Fistpumps, high fives and group chest bumps

aaaand it's Tottenham Hotspur
Tottenham Hotspur FC
We're by far in a better place, than we were with Sugar in

Levy, Levy 'giss a wave
Levy 'giss a wave

Oh when ENIC
finally cash in
Oh when ENIC finally cash in
I hope it's for, a big number
Oh when ENIC finally cash in

We are such fucking hypocrites. Massive. Page after page of 'The game is about Glory' and 'To Dare is to do', Nicholson & Blanchflower quoted left right and centre in the Mourinho hate threads yet some of those same people, with their romantic style views when it comes to our managers or the style of football we play are happy with 20 years of 'we're in a better position'. And lets be honest, when ENIC took over we were in such a state that a bumbling yokel could have put us in a better position

We demand a certain style and panache, glory and winning yet when it comes to his loftiness, there's a massive blind spot, the demand isn't about any of that, it's about fuck-all really, lets just coast along, always the promise of what's to come, the glow of being in a "better position", demanding this romantic stylised notion of Spurs from the manager and players while the owners get praise and even adulation because we're better off than we were twenty years ago. I mean, come on, yeah, well done, but isn't it about time they were put under some serious pressure to deliver what we all actually keep banging on about?

*runs away and hides from the seething mob

Once again, I merely responded to a posted quote from 20 years ago that claimed that the ENIC takeover would bode ill for Spurs fans. The unmistakeable implication of that quote was that things would get even worse for Spurs fans or, at best, remain as bad as they were.

And since we are objectively and undeniably in an unimaginably better place now than we were then, that quote was clearly - contrary to the original poster's assertion - not prescient at all.

That was my point. Nothing more. Everything else is just your invention, mate. But I hope you feel better for getting it off your chest!

 

[mattdefoe]

We’ve been close enough to silverware enough times in terms of semis, finals, and even 1/4s that by law of average we should’ve at heat had 3/4 trophies during Enics stewardship. That may not be dazzling but at the very least it would be better than every club bar the sides that were already streets ahead of us to start with. To me that suggests that while it’s true that Enic have screwed up a few key opportunities to move on, the issue has not been one of squad quality. This is only reinforced by the fact that Leicester, Wigan and Portsmouth managed to get silverware with their only attempts to in that time.

4 FA cup semis, 4 league cup finals, a champions league final, a champions league 1/4 final and a UEFA cup 1/4 final from memory (and other scattered 1/4s on both FA and league cup, but I’m not counting those so much as there’s fewer games to play to do so) as well as 4 seasons in which we had a decent shot at the Premiership title going into the second half of the season.

Ultimately, Enic are the constant, rather than the managers or the players, so I see why it’s easy to correlate their activities negatively with success (or positively with lack of success) but if they’ve built up manager-squad combos and provided training facilities capable enough to get this close this often the I really don’t think the lack of any silverware can be attributed to them. What can be, fairly, levelled at Enic is the fact that we’ve three times got to a position where can really kick on, and they’ve not invested appropriately at those points, with us always going backwards as a result. However, each peak has always surpassed the last, so hopefully the next peak is something big and shiny.

I agree that 1 secondary competition win in 20 years is bad. In think that it’s mitigated somewhat when you look at where we were and where we are, and I think that Enic have provided the environment to have achieved more in terms silverware. I’m more critical of the fact that, even with how much higher we’ve reached in overall terms compared to what they inherited, we could’ve got here earlier and by now be doing even better, and been a real force as opposed to last decades equivalent of Hall/ Shephard’s Newcastle.

Some great points , and the money clubs especially Chelsea have frauded us of many semi finals and a final , which if we had there millions we would have likely won.

 

[JimmyG2]

Mind you if Amazon did football
the players would all be on
zero hours contracts,
half time breaks would be scrapped
and they'd have to supply
their own balls,
and pee
in their water bottles.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

You have every right to have your opinion regarding the management or mis-management of the club and where you see it.
For me I don't get this we are in such a good place with enic nonsense, the club was on it's knees and was in the bottom half of the table the majority of the sugar term so anything above mid table was an improvement.
As a club of our size being in the top six on a regular basis should be the minimum expectation from the club and fan's perspective.
All enic have done is placed us back on par roughly where we were prior to sugars time in charge so nothing above and beyond.
Currently as it stands the club is in a mess languishing mid table and a laughing stock yet again with a manager who many dislike.
Like I said if you feel progress has been made then I'm pleased for you but I certainly have the right to counter that argument the way I see fit without abusing anyone

But what you are forgetting is that, when ENIC took over, we weren't anywhere near the top six. We were miles behind Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle and Leeds. And, to a lesser extent, even Aston Villa. We hadn't been a top six club in over a decade. We were a mid table club that all too often flirted with relegation. We were diminishing in importance year on year. And then came Abramovich. And Abu Dhabi....

Now? Yes, absolutely. We have somehow, to a great extent, caught up. The damage of the Scholar and Sugar regimes has been repaired. Top six should now be a minimum expectation; top four should be the minimum aim; and top of the pile should be the realistic hope. But you shouldn't underestimate the size of the task to get to this point.

 

[titan]

Forgot to bring why hasn't the stadium gotten a naming rights deal done yet? Usually those things are done before the stadium even opens. Plenty of examples of that state side, as well as didn't the emirates get a naming rights deal before they even finished construction.

 

[topper]

Mind you if Amazon did football
the players would all be on
zero hours contracts,
half time breaks would be scrapped
and they'd have to supply
their own balls,
and pee
in their water bottles.

And bring their own shorts - but then again 'shorts don't matter'

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Once again, I merely responded to a posted quote from 20 years ago that claimed that the ENIC takeover would bode ill for Spurs fans. The unmistakeable implication of that quote was that things would get even worse for Spurs fans or, at best, remain as bad as they were.

And since we are objectively and undeniably in an unimaginably better place now than we were then, that quote was clearly - contrary to the original poster's assertion - not prescient at all.

That was my point. Nothing more. Everything else is just your invention, mate. But I hope you feel better for getting it off your chest!

Fucking hell. My invention? MY invention? You've just come out with the biggest invention since Alexander Graham Bell

So you're the only one who has said it so it must be you i'm responding to. The content didn't give the impression at all that I was referring to all of us, the literally thousands of times it's been said but instead, you prompted it. I'm actually not entirely sure I even read what you said. If it were aimed at you, i'd have quoted you.

So to be clear, my post had nothing to do with yours, it was a general observation to something i've seen said many many MANY times over many many years. But yeah, in the god knows how many years people have been saying it, it was your comment that jogged me. There are words in there that do give this away you know, but go on, tell me what I actually meant again, you wouldn't be the first.

Fucks sake.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Apparently we are a billion pounds in debt albeit manageable . I would say you could take any premiership club or some championship clubs
And build them a new stadium and training ground over a twenty year period and they could be in the same position we are in . May be with more success on the playing field than we have had . Why all the adulation or backing of ENIC ? I dont get it ; the achievement of building the stadium and the training ground and be debt free would be truly worthy of praise but to do these things and have close to a billion pound debt well I just dont get the loyalty of some supporters for ENIC .

Our stadium debt is circa £650m. The club also took out a £175m loan with the Bank of England as an emergency COVID contingency. On the plus side, Spurs also has a cash balance of £226m.

Banks don't (or shouldn't!) hand out £825m debt indiscriminately. So no, it's not remotely true to say that any club could have borrowed as we have to build infrastructure such as we have. Not unless or until they earn the trust of the financial institutions. In fact, I believe that, among UK football clubs, only Spurs and Man Utd satisfied the qualifying criteria for the emergency Bank of England loan.

As I say they have built a brilliant infrastructure but it has been at no cost to them . I believe they are listed as an investment company but where is their investment the only investment I can see is the Tottenham's name used to obtain massive bank loans .

ENIC haven't invested massively into the club over the years but they did contribute a total of some £26m to two separate £15m rights issues. And, as I mentioned above, they also loaned the club £40m back in 2014 which was subsequently converted into equity. So £66m in total. Nothing amazing, certainly. But nor is it negligible.

I realise that the stadium makes this debt manageable bit like all fans I want investment from an investment company on players .
For me this is similar to some extent to Man unt brought mainly with a bank loan and that loan was then transferred to the club putting it simply buy the club with your own money . At least the United people invest in players and plenty of them .

Um.....no! ENIC's ownership of Spurs is nothing like a leveraged buyout. At all. And, no, the Glazers do not "invest in players" themselves. Quite the opposite. They leech £60m out of Utd annually in order to fund their purchase of the club. Any player bought is bought with club generated funds. Fortunately for the Glazers, Man Utd being the behemoth that it is, it can afford to fund the family to the tune of £60m annually while still spending profusely on players.

Obviously I dont really know about buisness finances but If you build a stadium and training ground that is some achievement at the same time saddle the club with a near million pound debt and it really calls this achievement into doubt of how big an achievement it really is .
If I am talking a load of rubbish perhaps those with knowledge of finance can explain why I am wrong to be not on the side of ENIC .

We don't have to be on ENIC's side. We have to be on THFC's side. And you can rest assured that, allowing for the world overcoming (or controlling) COVID in the not too distant future, we will be far better off going forward with this stadium and its concomitant debt than we would be had we kept the old stadium and remained debt free.

 

[SecretLemonadeDrinker]

Fucking hell. My invention? MY invention? You've just come out with the biggest invention since Alexander Graham Bell

So you're the only one who has said it so it must be you i'm responding to. The content didn't give the impression at all that I was referring to all of us, the literally thousands of times it's been said but instead, you prompted it. I'm actually not entirely sure I even read what you said. If it were aimed at you, i'd have quoted you.

So to be clear, my post had nothing to do with yours, it was a general observation to something i've seen said many many MANY times over many many years. But yeah, in the god knows how many years people have been saying it, it was your comment that jogged me. There are words in there that do give this away you know, but go on, tell me what I actually meant again, you wouldn't be the first.

Fucks sake.

Last night, I wrote as part of a response to shelfboy68:

We are objectively and undeniably in a far better place as a club than we were when ENIC took over

Four posts further down, you began your polemic with:

We are in a much better place than we were when ENIC took over, that's undeniable.

If your post really wasn't referring to mine, then my apologies. But you must admit that it could easily appear that it was.

 

[buckley]

You still dont get my point that the 825 million pound debt is Tottenham hotspurs debt not an ENIC debt when and if they walk away they will take every penny they get as profit and Tottenham will still carry the debt which is a big no no for people who would like to buy the club the amounts you say they invested are in comparison to the debt peanuts .
They should not be called a company that invests when they patently do not to any great amount invest their own money .

 

[shelfboy68]

But what you are forgetting is that, when ENIC took over, we weren't anywhere near the top six. We were miles behind Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Newcastle and Leeds. And, to a lesser extent, even Aston Villa. We hadn't been a top six club in over a decade. We were a mid table club that all too often flirted with relegation. We were diminishing in importance year on year. And then came Abramovich. And Abu Dhabi....

Now? Yes, absolutely. We have somehow, to a great extent, caught up. The damage of the Scholar and Sugar regimes has been repaired. Top six should now be a minimum expectation; top four should be the minimum aim; and top of the pile should be the realistic hope. But you shouldn't underestimate the size of the task to get to this point.

I think I have said before on here that this subject does no one any favours because with all sides entrenched in their views it goes around in circles.
I do respect your opinion because that is your right although it wasn't lost on me your attempts to patronise and also add your sarcasm to the proceedings.
Obviously you are happy with the way the club is run and feel that the club are in a good place, I don't feel the same way and have always echoed my strong opinions on this, again I'm not everyone's cup of tea but it is not something that I am worried about and never have been.