ENIC...

[buckley]

What is it they say about the lowest form of wit ?

 

[buckley]

By the way pot kettle and black comes to mind . Its easy to be sarcastic without giving a proper answer

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

By the way pot kettle and black comes to mind . Its easy to be sarcastic without giving a proper answer

You had two proper answers and pretty much ignored them. Fuck me, give your arse a chance will you.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

What is it they say about the lowest form of wit ?

It's the funniest?

 

[LeParisien]

Seeing as this time there's no 'croc of shit' in your post, i'll play.......

Is that an unfair request you asked........Yes it is. I've already explained it clearly but i'll try again. Take whoever the richest man in the world is, take the 100 richest men, 500 richest men, whatever, how is anyone supposed to know which are interested and which would be outstanding candidates? 'Name me names' is an impossible requirement, impossible and irrelevant, i'm not going to spend hours researching who may or may not be interested because you still couldn't tell and even if there were clues, it would be guesswork. All we can do is wait to see who our next owners, if any, actually are.

Meanwhile and until then, I want Levy gone. I don't have to come up with names, nobody has to come up with names, wanting him gone is OK, people who agree with that should be able to do so without people trying to shut that down with ridiculous stuff like this.

So yeah, I want Levy gone

That’s a really bad populist argument. You’re trying to give this a veneer of a freedom of conscience or thought argument. It’s not about that. It’s about whether you wanting Levy gone stacks up.

And all you’re saying is that you’d like some really rich guy, most of whom have never watched a football match, to swoop in and save us like superman. Wonderful strategy.

But the key point which you keep ignoring is that you are being asked to reflect on the fact that we already have one of the very very best in the business. So if the guy you hate is one of the best around then it must be a difficult job and it can’t be easy to find better.

But you keep ignoring that. In fact:

you pretty much ignored both and still come out with the same tired shit.

 

[SpursSince1980]

To clarify, whichever way you want to steer around it, there's a implied entitlement in this:

"We are supposedly a big club. Yet... fucking Leeds and Blackburn and Leicester and Everton have won the league during that time. And the best we could do is finish 2nd... once."

Using 1980 as a reference to what others have and haven't done is silly. There's no rules or references in football that suggests that the longer you avoid relegation, the higher the chance (or, indeed, right) you have to win that competition. Take Heysel out of the picture and the entire footballing pyramid would no doubt have Everton and Spurs plausibly better off.

There are clubs who have won a lot more than we have (in terms of grandeur and quantity) who are far below us. In realistic terms, we are the 7th most 'decorated' team in the football league, and the 6th 'richest' in the premier league, so to be pissed off that we aren't winning leagues is certainly only going to fit the description of a 'right'.

So yes, people are frustrated, and all the fans want to win things, but for anyone to suggest that we should (paraphrasing or whatever, that is is the tone) be more successful than we are should really justify that. Why should we be finishing above the likes of Liverpool and United? They have significantly more titles than we have had. Why should we be finishing above City and Chelsea when they have shared the majority of titles this century so far?

The reality is that there was a short period in recent years when all the usual suspects went off the boil, and it was there for the taking. Leicester took their chance, we didn't. They deserved it, but far more people wanted them to do it than they did us, which would have helped.

As this is the ENIC thread, it is only really relevant to look at where we were under Sugar/Graham, and what's happened since. ENIC aren't in any way responsible for what happened prior, and the handicap that resulted in our ability to compete (or not, as it were).

You should read Wittgenstein ‘on personal language’.

When you subjectively infer ‘implying‘ as the meaning of what someone is saying, you are effectively guessing at intent. As you can and nor can I infer something and declare it as fact, when what you are referring to is not stating a factual based opinion to prove or disprove a point. You are extracting the meaning you want to see. But don’t acknowledge that I've said nothing about what we deserve or not. You have twisted a sentence out of context to validate a statement that was a misinterpretation.

Go back and read, consider intent. You are talking past me.

So, let me simplify... I was just pointing out that Spurs fans, especially those who have supported the club for over 20 years, get frustrated. And in my post I posit on the reasons why that frustration has built, year over year. That those frustrations grow and boil over into emotions. I even say a few times that it is irrational. But, its not really that fair to get pissy with fans who are just venting their spleen, cos they are emotional, cos they are frustrated, cos they love the club, cos they want desperately to have a few moments of winning bliss... and much of that is related to the reasons I presented. Perhaps I should have prefaced with... 'this is my hypothesis'.

Sometimes those emotions are pointed at our coaches. Sometimes at players. Sometimes at ENIC/Levy. Sometimes the whole enchilada.

Regardless, I was speaking about emotions and where they might be coming from. How someone feels is true to them. Denying them how they feel through castigation is to completely bypass the ‘why’. The reasons for the why, can be arbitrary, they can be borderline irrational, and they are inherently subjective. Telling them they are this or that for how they feel, or to demean or undermine the ‘facts’ that feed those emotions, is sort of pointless. Or, missing the point. It’s missing empathy.

Its not about should. Or entitlement. It’s about frustration, driven by emotion. It’s jealousy. It’s annoyance. It’s envy. It’s covetousness. That’s all. That’s the whole ball of wax. Nothing more. Just let people feel what they will feel, and try to take time to understand the why.

 

[mkkid]

If you're recruiting for the manager of a regional store, yes.

You're trying to twist some sort of metaphor to make it sound like he's running the entire company - not picking and coaching the side. Which he is.

Mourinho was 1st Team Coach - that's the position Ryan is handling.

He managing the most important part of the company, Spurs can still qualify for Europe..

 

[[email protected]]

Nope, not having that for a second.

You’ve completely failed to deal with the argument. Pretty entitled point of view. You might be dissatisfied but not all anger is righteous. If you have one of the best chairmen in the world then to want him OUT is not the same thing as having legitimate grievances - its foolishness and it should give you pause for thought.

I won’t repeat myself further, I’ll just quote what I’ve already said:

So mate, please forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but are you saying that people are not entitled to be dissatisfied with any aspect of Levy's tenure unless they can suggest someone else who might do a better job? That any "grievances" we have can only be "legitimised" if we can suggest 3 alternate names to replace him?
Have I got that right?
So would that mean for example, we're not allowed to be angry with his attempt to take us into the ESL or criticise his recruitment policy and the squad regression it catalysed post 2018, or just be disappointed with the direction of the football team with his hand on the tiller unless we can name someone who we're confident might do it better?
If that is the case, you're trying to police how people feel: that unless we "name names" we don't have your permission to be critical of Levy, to hold him to account, or just simply to want better from a chairman. With respect mate, I don't think it's your place to tell people how they should feel.

I seem to remember you being extremely vocal in your criticism of Mourinho. You stated categorically that you wanted Jose removed. Did you only give yourself permission to want him out after naming 3 potential replacements?
Like I said mate, apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, and misrepresented the point you're making.

 

[LeParisien]

Nicola cortese, Trevor birch and Jeremy peace on the football side.
John burns, Mark Allan, Mike slade on the property side.
He really is not very good. No other ub would employ him.

Cortese: « Clubs spend money they do not have; they spend next year’s income. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say, "But we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall". It cannot be sustained. In good times you need to be saving money for the bad times. If we reach the Premier League, I would like to be in a position where we did not need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for the bad years. »

Jeremy Peace at the end of his tenure:
«Slowly what I hear referred to as "the Albion way" evolved. Try to compete in the top-flight but keep the Club solvent, invest in its infrastructure and its future development, always building but never at the risk of the Club's financial well-being.

I look around now at the training ground, the Academy's EPPP status, an ever-improving squad of internationals and the growth of the Albion Foundation with all its wonderful community work and feel it has been a successful strategy.

I wish we could have won a major Cup because I believe the players we have assembled here have been good enough to do so. »

They both sound like they’d get along with Levy!

And Trevor Birch who has done excellent work and was at our club. But you need to acknowledge the uncertainty as he’s never achieved what levy has in the game.

 

[topper]

You should read Wittgenstein ‘on personal language’.

When you subjectively infer ‘implying‘ as the meaning of what someone is saying, you are effectively guessing at intent. As you can and nor can I use infer something and declare it as fact, when what you are referring to is not fact. You are extracting the meaning you want to see. But don’t acknowledge that at no point do i say anything about what we deserve or not. You have twisted a sentence out of context to validate a statement that was a misinterpretation.

Go back and read, consider armature and intent. You are talking past me.

So, let me simplify... I was just pointing out that Spurs fans, especially those who have supported the club for over 20 years, get frustrated. Here are some reasons why that frustration has built, year over year. That those frustrations grow and boil over into emotions. I even say a few times that it is irrational. But, its not really that fair to get pissy with fans who are just venting their spleen, cos they are emotional, cos they are frustrated, cos of the reasons I gave.

Those are their emotions. How someone feels is true to them. Denying them how they feel through castigation is to completely bypass the ‘why’. The reasons for the why, can be arbitrary, they can be borderline irrational, and they are inherently subjective. Telling them they are this or that for how they feel, or to demean or undermine the ‘facts’ that feed those emotions, is sort of pointless. Or, missing the point. It’s missing empathy.

Its not about should. Or entitlement. It’s about frustration, driven by emotion. It’s jealousy. It’s annoyance. It’s envy. It’s covetousness. That’s all. That’s the whole ball of wax. Nothing more. Just let people feel what they will feel, and try to take time to understand the why.

You raise some really deep, intelligent and profound points but answer me one thing - which Bundesliga side does Wittgenstein manage, is he any good and what's his philosophy?

 

[HodisGawd]

So mate, please forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but are you saying that people are not entitled to be dissatisfied with any aspect of Levy's tenure unless they can suggest someone else who might do a better job? That any "grievances" we have can only be "legitimised" if we can suggest 3 alternate names to replace him?
Have I got that right?

No, you've clearly got that spectacularly wrong, which renders the rest of your post pointless. Go back and re-read what was said.

 

[SpursSince1980]

You raise some really deep, intelligent and profound points but answer me one thing - which Bundesliga side does Wittgenstein manage, is he any good and what's his philosophy?

Prussia FC
He’s dead, but still effective.
His philosophy is about trying to understand what the other team really means when they are barking orders to each other on the pitch.

Suffice to say, he is on Levy’s shortlist.

 

[mkkid]

Leicester - fair enough. They’re a really well run club as well.

Everton - what have you seen from Bill Kenwright since 2004 to suggest he’s a better chairman than levy ? Honest question. I’d say we were similar sized clubs when he took over and now we are a lot bigger and have had a lot more success.

Man City - wow. Ok well never agree that doing things that way is better than doing things our way. If what you want is a dirty oligarch to take over then I can understand your frustration with levy perfectly.

Farhad Moshiri runs Everton .
ive enjoyed all of daniel sucess from sacking Graham,sellino both our forwards before a season started, sacking Jol, constantly not investing, when the team needed it, Stratford, but the biggest club shop in Europe, made up for everything.
Sacking a manger before a cup final and appointing coneman was a master stroke.
Spurs need to qualify for Europe.

oh and the one glorious league cup.

 

[[email protected]]

No, you've clearly got that spectacularly wrong, which renders the rest of your post pointless. Go back and re-read what was said.

It's ok mate, @LeParisien is decent guy and a respectful poster. I'm sure he'll clarify the point he was making for me.

 

[LeParisien]

So mate, please forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but are you saying that people are not entitled to be dissatisfied with any aspect of Levy's tenure unless they can suggest someone else who might do a better job? That any "grievances" we have can only be "legitimised" if we can suggest 3 alternate names to replace him?
Have I got that right?
So would that mean for example, we're not allowed to be angry with his attempt to take us into the ESL or criticise his recruitment policy and the squad regression it catalysed post 2018, or just be disappointed with the direction of the football team with his hand on the tiller unless we can name someone who we're confident might do it better?
If that is the case, you're trying to police how people feel: that unless we "name names" we don't have your permission to be critical of Levy, to hold him to account, or just simply to want better from a chairman. With respect mate, I don't think it's your place to tell people how they should feel.

I seem to remember you being extremely vocal in your criticism of Mourinho. You stated categorically that you wanted Jose removed. Did you only give yourself permission to want him out after naming 3 potential replacements?
Like I said mate, apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick, and misrepresented the point you're making.

Hey mate - thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think that Levy can be criticised absolutely. I just think we should appreciate that things are clearer in hindsight and juggling the complex demands of growing a football club involves trade offs. It’s a hard job.

So to your post - no, that’s not what I’m saying. I am asking people to consider who in world football is a better chairman. In doing so I think people will realise that there are very few people better than Levy. In that case it will not be easy to find someone within the game to do a better job. It is also therefore fanciful to believe someone unconnected to the game will waltz in and do better.

Unless of course they are staggeringly wealthy and willing to plunge large sums of money into the club. The evidence from the real world is that only those who are looking to launder their reputation will do that. Some here have no scruples about bringing in eg the Saudi royal family. I, however, am proud that we’re doing it off our own back. More slowly, for sure, but untainted by dirty money.

Your Mourinho example is a good one. I can easily name 3 coaches (try 20) that would be better for us than Mourinho. Guardiola, Klopp, Conte. And these picks would be thoroughly uncontroversial. Now compare that with the barrel being scraped for chairmen better than levy.

Although actually you’re more likely to hear sarcastic deflection than any serious engagement with the issue.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

So..

Eriksen scores the goal today that likely seals the title for Inter.

Walker about to pick up another Premier league winners medal.

Poch sitting top of ligue 1

I don't know why but all of the above is really annoying me. We are so allergic to winning trophies.

Even Skipp is going to get a league winners medal albeit the championship.

This club needs some fundamental changes.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

You know I actually agree. The football side does need sorting out but I think Levy will recognise that and make reasonable steps to doing so. Will mistakes be made? Sure. But unless Jesus Christ come down to run the club that’s inevitable.

Im optimistic. We’ll be in an even better position in 5 years than we’ve ever been under ENIC. And no doubt people will continue to gripe

The irony is that when we had Commoli and later Baldini people were saying having a DOF was a flawed system and Jol/Redknapp/Poch should have more power ?. Now everyone is screaming that we should have a DOF.

I guess for some being a supporter is just about moaning for the sake of it. ?

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

No, you've clearly got that spectacularly wrong, which renders the rest of your post pointless. Go back and re-read what was said.

Oh come on, it's obvious. Names names, just that, forget the rest...........expecting that isn't reasonable, it isn't like naming three men to manage the team is it.

Owners, Chairmen, all of it, is there a list of them somewhere? And a list of people who can afford to and are interested in us? It's ridiculous.

 

[wrd]

I don't know why people are struggling to name better owners than Levy. I mean I don't even know much about owners outside of Spurs but even I know there's at least 2 owners in the prem who have created a structure which has allowed their teams to thrive.

Have FSG at Liverpool not came in and in less time, implemented a boardroom which has seen the club restore itself to the very top of the game. They've completely revitalised their transfer committee which has over the last few years arguably been the best in the world, one which identified Klopp as the man to lead the team, Look at the players they've signed. Look at the money they've made from selling players, Michael Edwards is the absolute best in the business when it comes to player transfers.

They've managed to build a world class team, they've won the top trophies, before Covid they broke a couple of revenue and profit records despite the outlay on wages and players, they've shown a willingness to grease the wheels with agents if it means they can land the missing pieces. They've also invested in new infrastructure recently building new training facilities. They've also shown a willingness to take on more investment which should benefit their club during the covid era.

The only criticism you can throw their way is the ESL debacle which Levy himself was involved in, so if we're talking about being better than Levy and their both tarred with that brush then FSG are out in front in terms of the structure they've put in place to thrive on the pitch, whoever the team is behind Klopp in the boardroom seem to know what they're doing when it comes to knowing what type of manager they wanted, what type of players to target, there seems to be a lot of football knowledge there.

The other is the structure at Leicester, I mean the original owner passed away and the club still didn't skip a beat. They have relatively consistently over the last 5/6 years performed way above their stature. They have a structure in place in that boardroom which has allowed them to excel at player recruitment and source some excellent talent at low prices, they've shown a willingness to sell their star players at the right price and every time they've sold a top player they have managed to reinvest that money and continued to progress. They have won the big trophy which we haven't, continued to be around the champions league places, reached a domestic final. They have also built an absolutely top tier training ground which rivals ours.

So yeah, of course nobody can rival what Levy has done with the stadium, unfortunately due to Covid he will have to wait to see if it's the great equaliser but I find it difficult to believe that you can argue that these two ownerships haven't better implemented a structure for what happens on the pitch which indicates they have a clear ethos for what they want their team to be doing on the pitch, a structure which has allowed both clubs to sell players and know exactly what targets to identify to push them forward on the pitch.

I mean there's other teams across europe who relative to their structure have a clear identity on the pitch which allows them to punch well above their weight, teams which constantly have to sell players and yet still continue to perform admirably, they perform extremely well, win trophies fairly regularly especially compared to us in their respective leagues. I think those clubs you could argue are pound for pound performing better than we are considering we're the 8th richest club in world football.

I mean I'll give you a reason as to why I think these owners are a clear improvement when it comes to Levy when it pertains on the pitch (again when it comes to infrastructure, he may well be peerless).

I think one big issue with Spurs fans is we are absolutely adverse to the idea of selling one of our star players. The reason for that in my opinion is a lack of faith on the owners ability to use the money raised from selling said players and identifying clear targets which fit into footballing approach we are trying to consistently implement.

Let's put it this way, If we were to sell Son for 80 million, do you think the owners of Spurs have done enough in the past to ease fans fears that they won't waste the money and use it poorly? However if Son was sold by dortmund for 80 million, by Leipzig, by Athletico, by Leicester or by Liverpool do you think their fans would have the same level of concerns for how that money would be implemented or do you think their fans based on the experience of the way their owners invest based on the clear plan they have in place would have significantly less anxiety of the situation.

I mean have we not seen that the clubs I've just mentioned, consistently hire managers, hire players which fit a certain mould that they're trying to work from? Where as we went from a possesion based, attack minded manager who built a squad in that image to hiring a manager the complete antithesis of that. Whether you think Poch's time was up was irrelevant to the fact that we chose to hire a manager based on reputation rather than based on a structure to where successive managers can thrive. I mean we're course changing again. How can we possibly suggest that when it pertains to this particular area that clearly these owners are not doing a better job of implementing a structure which means relative to their stature they're performing significantly better than we are relative to our stature in the game.

 

[BujuBanton]

Theres a protest on the 15th. Hoping there will be good numbers. 12pm. Outside the ground. We’ve protested against our owners before and forced change. Time to stand up for our football club