Etienne Capoue

[TEESSIDE1]

As said above, Capoue will thrive under poch, IMO at sandro's expense. Comes down to ability on the ball. Holtby will be another one to see his stock rise. Only way I'll be happy with this deal is if Koke comes the other way

There's always one who has to lower the tone lol

I too would play Capoue ahead of Sandro but in games against the top 4, I would play both of them.

 

[DaSpurs]

There's always one who has to lower the tone lol

I too would play Capoue ahead of Sandro but in games against the top 4, I would play both of them.

No way mate, limits our own ball movement and mobility far too much to have two CDM's sitting in front of the line, regardless of the quality of the opposition. That's a great way of saying to your own team and the opposition that we're just going to park the bus and not have a go at it.

 

[Shadydan]

No way mate, limits our own ball movement and mobility far too much to have two CDM's sitting in front of the line, regardless of the quality of the opposition. That's a great way of saying to your own team and the opposition that we're just going to park the bus and not have a go at it.

Depends on circumstance really, if we're winning a game then there's no reason to play them to setup on the counter.

They are typical mourinho tactics though because he likes to play Matic and Luiz or Mikel in the double pivot which worked beautifully against Man City as it denies the opposition space going forward.

 

[absolute bobbins]

http://www.cope.es/detalle/El-Atletico-cierra-el-fichaje-de-Correa.html

Cadena Copa are claiming that Atletico are after Capoue.

Can they afford him?

 

[Misfit]

I'd love for us to keep our squad together. Just one summer can we have some continuity. We're loaded with quality. Rose, Daws, Naughton, Ade, maybe Bobby if the club feels like he isn't worth trying for another season (although I personally still believe in the sexy bastard). Otherwise, please let's not jettison real quality especially before we've at least seen the best of them in a Spurs shirt.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

No way mate, limits our own ball movement and mobility far too much to have two CDM's sitting in front of the line, regardless of the quality of the opposition. That's a great way of saying to your own team and the opposition that we're just going to park the bus and not have a go at it.

I disagree re basically saying we're not good enough. It's called altering your style to match the opposition as opposed to saying we suck ... most teams do it. Look at Chelsea away at Liverpool, they played 2 holding midfielders in Matic and Mikel and came away with a victory. Man City do the same, play one up top and an extra man in midfield in tough matches, instead of their usual 442.

 

[DaSpurs]

Depends on circumstance really, if we're winning a game then there's no reason to play them to setup on the counter.

They are typical mourinho tactics though because he likes to play Matic and Luiz or Mikel in the double pivot which worked beautifully against Man City as it denies the opposition space going forward.

Indeed, but both Matic and Luiz are far more mobile players than even Capoue. Setting up with both our CDM's from the beginning of the game would simply be crippling to our forward movement and pressing ability.

 

[DaSpurs]

I disagree re basically saying we're not good enough. It's called altering your style to match the opposition as opposed to saying we suck ... most teams do it. Look at Chelsea away at Liverpool, they played 2 holding midfielders in Matic and Mikel and came away with a victory. Man City do the same, play one up top and an extra man in midfield in tough matches, instead of their usual 442.

You're absolutely right those teams do so, but in no way am I saying we're not good enough. What I am saying though, is that such a lineup of CDM's, especially since they're not as mobile as Chelsea or City's selections there, would make our ball movement and possession not good enough indeed. Seeing how Poch sets up in such a manner that he presses so highly against the better teams and affords them so little possession, I would be very surprised if we ever played with two CDM's simultaneously. It would simply hinder our pace of pinning ball movement and player positioning, thus negating such an oft-used tactic of his.

 

[Shadydan]

Indeed, but both Matic and Luiz are far more mobile players than even Capoue. Setting up with both our CDM's from the beginning of the game would simply be crippling to our forward movement and pressing ability.

Disagree with that Matic has the turning circle of a bus, what set him apart is his positioning and his defensive awareness which is what sets him apart. Luiz you are correct.

Even so that's besides the point, my point was denying the opposition space to go forward, primarily what you're asking the DMF's to do is snuff out the danger and give it to the forwards to turn defence into attack which what Sandro and Capoue are more than capable of doing.

 

[DaSpurs]

Disagree with that Matic has the turning circle of a bus, what set him apart is his positioning and his defensive awareness which is what sets him apart. Luiz you are correct.

Even so that's besides the point, my point was denying the opposition space to go forward, primarily what you're asking the DMF's to do is snuff out the danger and give it to the forwards to turn defence into attack which what Sandro and Capoue are more than capable of doing.

Not quickly enough. Even with one CDM and one BTB midfielder the last two seasons, transitional play was an immense weakness of ours. There are plenty of DLP type CM's who are very capable in defense, and also excellent in transitioning play. Two CDM's of those player's ilk will not be sufficient enough to provide efficient and pressing possession, and especially against the better teams.

 

[loaderspurs]

I actually kinda agree with both arguments above. While playing Sandro and Capoue does severely limit our capability on the ball, as well as developing a possible negative approach to our play, I also agree that systems and personnel need to be altered dependant on the opposition. This is why In the tougher games I'd like us to play something like Sandro/Capoue alongside someone like holtby, who has a bit of grit but also is good going forward, whereas in games we're more likely to dominate rotate in Paulinho or sigurdsson. It's all about squad management.

I do think we have too many cm's for effective rotation, so will be interesting to see who may be offloaded. If it's down to me dembele would be high on the list. Capoue would actually be one of the last ones to sell due to his utility and all round ability.

 

[StanSpur]

No way mate, limits our own ball movement and mobility far too much to have two CDM's sitting in front of the line, regardless of the quality of the opposition. That's a great way of saying to your own team and the opposition that we're just going to park the bus and not have a go at it.

I think a midfield of capoue Sandro eriksen lamela and holtby would still be creative (holtby being the filler at the moment). I believe it a better tactic against ball retaining sides like Liverpool arsenal and city. Then drop Sandro for a more dynamic player like paulinho or dembele for oppositions that will give us more time and space to play in. I would definitely keep them both

 

[Shadydan]

Not quickly enough. Even with one CDM and one BTB midfielder the last two seasons, transitional play was an immense weakness of ours. There are plenty of DLP type CM's who are very capable in defense, and also excellent in transitioning play. Two CDM's of those player's ilk will not be sufficient enough to provide efficient and pressing possession, and especially against the better teams.

What do you mean not quickly enough? Under AVB in our away games we setup to counter with Sandro and Dembele because they were screening the defence, when they won the ball back they gave it to the forwards. My point is that both Sandro and Capoue are capable of winning the ball and passing it to a forward player, it has nothing to do with mobility.

If you're playing counter attacking football meaning your defensive line is deep why would you be pressing the opposition?, counter attacking football is hardly a science.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

You're absolutely right those teams do so, but in no way am I saying we're not good enough. What I am saying though, is that such a lineup of CDM's, especially since they're not as mobile as Chelsea or City's selections there, would make our ball movement and possession not good enough indeed. Seeing how Poch sets up in such a manner that he presses so highly against the better teams and affords them so little possession, I would be very surprised if we ever played with two CDM's simultaneously. It would simply hinder our pace of pinning ball movement and player positioning, thus negating such an oft-used tactic of his.

I agree re it possibly restricting our movement but I see Capoue more as an all-round central midfielder as opposed to Sandro who's more of a battering ram. Playing 2 players who only kick people will slow us down but with Capoue, I think it could work.

Plus we shouldn't forget that our fluidity will also come down to the players around them ... as in we need a new centre back, preferably one with better distribution than long ball Dawson and a new left back who's the opposite to inept Rose. Then there's the front players ... hopefully it will be Lamela plus 2 others (left wing and if Ade leaves). Hopefully they'll be more hard working and have better movement, ball control and an ability to hold the ball up unlike Sig, Townsend or Lennon.

 

[DaSpurs]

I think a midfield of capoue Sandro eriksen lamela and holtby would still be creative (holtby being the filler at the moment). I believe it a better tactic against ball retaining sides like Liverpool arsenal and city. Then drop Sandro for a more dynamic player like paulinho or dembele for oppositions that will give us more time and space to play in. I would definitely keep them both

Oh I have no problem with keeping them both, but I simply hold issue with playing them simultaneously. Very poor proposition for establishing efficient forward play IMO.

 

[DaSpurs]

What do you mean not quickly enough? Under AVB in our away games we setup to counter with Sandro and Dembele because they were screening the defence, when they won the ball back they gave it to the forwards. My point is that both Sandro and Capoue are capable of winning the ball and passing it to a forward player, it has nothing to do with mobility.

If you're playing counter attacking football meaning your defensive line is deep why would you be pressing the opposition?, counter attacking football is hardly a science.

Oy vey, while it's not a science it's also not as simple at this level as sitting deep -> countering or winning the ball back -> give to forwards. If it was, it'd be asinine to pay managers and coaching staff what they are. Also, both AVB and Poch play a high back line, with Poch's entire eleven pressing very high to disrupt opposing possession. This is extremely relevant, especially if you intend to play Sandro and Capoue simultaneously.

Sandro and Dembele showed signs of promise, but as of their peak they still were not consistently quick enough in their transitions and efficient/dangerous enough in their dispersal to cause the best teams problems. We have had very slow, meandering, static, and horizontal midfield play for the last two years, and playing two CDM's simultaneously would only serve to compound this problem.

 

[Japhet]

No way mate, limits our own ball movement and mobility far too much to have two CDM's sitting in front of the line, regardless of the quality of the opposition. That's a great way of saying to your own team and the opposition that we're just going to park the bus and not have a go at it.

Depends who we have as FBs. 2 holding players can enable full backs to get forward at will. Of course, that would be a complete waste of time with Rose and Naughton but holding players can be used offensively. It would also enable players like Vertonghen and Chiriches to bring the ball out from the back more often.

 

[DaSpurs]

I agree re it possibly restricting our movement but I see Capoue more as an all-round central midfielder as opposed to Sandro who's more of a battering ram. Playing 2 players who only kick people will slow us down but with Capoue, I think it could work.

Plus we shouldn't forget that our fluidity will also come down to the players around them ... as in we need a new centre back, preferably one with better distribution than long ball Dawson and a new left back who's the opposite to inept Rose. Then there's the front players ... hopefully it will be Lamela plus 2 others (left wing and if Ade leaves). Hopefully they'll be more hard working and have better movement, ball control and an ability to hold the ball up unlike Sig, Townsend or Lennon.

You can have all the mobility in the world in the peripheral positions, but if you aren't transitioning quickly enough from deep center then you aren't going to beat the best with your options and the consequent problems they create. If the plan is for two CDM's to sit deep and just kick the ball up or out, without directly taking opposing midfielders on and causing the back line to backpedal, and then not supporting in numbers, you've entirely isolated your mobile players.

Now, you're absolutely right Capoue is a more mobile type of CDM, and could even arguably be seen as one of the old-fashioned "all-around central midfielders." However, I think he's best used as an ideal classic No 6 from the Dutch school of thought. He shields the back line not only with his presence, but also with using his mobility to pick up the ball from the back line and quickly disperse it to defend the back line with possession. This is exactly why i think he should be first choice CDM anyway, and especially in Poch's high-pressing system. He would be magnificent in it IMO. But coupling him immediately next to yet another CDM is just too limiting of options and movement against the best teams. Having a ball-winning player alongside him also capable of quicker, and further transition, far exceeds the contribution in attacking play and defending with possession beyond what we would sacrifice in physical presence.

 

[DaSpurs]

Depends who we have as FBs. 2 holding players can enable full backs to get forward at will. Of course, that would be a complete waste of time with Rose and Naughton but holding players can be used offensively. It would also enable players like Vertonghen and Chiriches to bring the ball out from the back more often.

Now this is very true, but it would frankly depend on more upheaval in tactics and even personnel than simply not playing two CDM's simultaneously.

 

[Shadydan]

Oy vey, while it's not a science it's also not as simple at this level as sitting deep -> countering or winning the ball back -> give to forwards. If it was, it'd be asinine to pay managers and coaching staff what they are. Also, both AVB and Poch play a high back line, with Poch's entire eleven pressing very high to disrupt opposing possession. This is extremely relevant, especially if you intend to play Sandro and Capoue simultaneously.

Sandro and Dembele showed signs of promise, but as of their peak they still were not consistently quick enough in their transitions and efficient/dangerous enough in their dispersal to cause the best teams problems. We have very slow, meandering, static, and horizontal midfield play for the last two years, and playing two CDM's simultaneously would only serve to compound this problem.

We're at different ends of the scale here. Playing two defensive midfielders and playing on the counter against teams who like to go forward works, we've seen that when Mourinho took his team to the Etihad. It had nothing to do with a high line or quick transitions it was simply a tactic to stifle attacking instincts of the opposition. My point is that it can work depending on the circumstance which is what I alluded to earlier especially if we are winning a game.

The problem with our static midfield play only comes to fruition when the other team are set and have players behind the ball, our horizontal play is a result of us passing the ball sideways when we don't have a player to unlock a defence from deep, but I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about catching the other team off guard by winning the ball deep and distributing to forward players, you're talking about breaking down defences.

In fact it's something we tended to do quite well under Redknapp, I'll give you an example - look how deep we are against Milan, Sandro wins the ball, okay Modric plays the pass to free up Lennon but my point is that we're not pressing, we're sitting back in an organised shape and Milan are chasing the game as they need to score

http://www.metatube.com/en/videos/49965/AC-Milan-vs-Tottenham-0-1-Goal-Highlights-15-2-2011/

As teams tend to go through the middle to look for goals and try and find space between the lines I believe that if you deploy the two together they'd find it increasingly difficult to go forward and would be vulnerable on the counter.