Has qualifying for the CL "really" made any difference...?

[Locotoro]

1) :wink:

2) I have been saying this for the last 3 years. Yet each year they still look fragile against Behemoth's like Stoke. As I said on another thread, Obscene whose qualities I have always been quick (if grudging) in acknowledging, has lost his mystique in the transfer market. He was fortunate in inheriting the team he did, and achieved a lot with it (and credit to him for that), but other than the 'Invincibles' he has been very hit-and-miss. As things stand, they haven't won anything for years, they are struggling to keep hold of their talismanic best player, and I can't help thinking he is gambling a bit in the market. Chamakh is far from useless, but this league is very far from the French, in which he has hardly been prolific. Their next best chance is Van Persie, and as we all know, he is injury prone and heavily missed during his abscences;

3) I agree with this exactly. But if we get away from them in the first half, by the time their players begin to gel their owners could lose patience with Mancini (supposition, I know). Just not expecting them to be the title chasers some are expecting just yet;

4) I agree about Hodgeson (as I have said so many times, I think he was very harshly judged at Blackburn). But I think they will struggle to keep hold of their best players, and they should be happy with a season of consolidation;

5) But, the squad is improving and we showed just this quality to bounce back from the semi disappointment to beat the Goons, Chavs and Citeh, and clinch 4th place;

6) Which is as much as any of us could realistically ask for, anything else would clearly be a bonus.

Fundamentally, and I have explained this before, my position is the same as it was at the start of last season. Despite having been a bit of a gambloholic (hence the Username:wink, I had never, ever put any money on our league position. I do allow myself the occasional flutter, and I felt that there were 8 teams capable of taking points off of one another (and teams below capable of upping their game and causing shocks, too). So, I worked to get quoted odds specifically on us finishing in top 4 - not each way on title, not best of the rest, 'cos, as I said, if we finished 4th and Citeh third I'd have got nothing. And i just felt like it could be so tight around that 4th spot that we could just nick it. I feel it is exactly the same now, but that Chelsea and United haven't progressed, whereas our team is improving, and no one knows just how much better they will be for another year together, the continuity of the same manager, and the incremental improvement in team spirit and the confidence engendered by last year's success. I also expect 'Arry to get us the couple of players we need, and to get the right players.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said.

But im curious, why do you think that we have improved and Chelsea and Man U haven't?

- Obviously aside from the underlined section

Aside from Sandro, which gives us options (to play Kaboul at Right Back :grin and my personal opinion that Cole wouldn't provide anything that we dont already have other than an extra able body. I just still dont think we are more capable of breaking down the Stoke's and Wolves' of this world. Thats where we need to improve.

 

[StartingPrice]

I agree with pretty much everything you have said.

But im curious, 1) why do you think that we have improved and Chelsea and Man U haven't?

- Obviously aside from the underlined section

Aside from Sandro, which gives us options (to play Kaboul at Right Back :grin and my personal opinion that Cole wouldn't provide anything that we dont already have other than an extra able body. 2) I just still dont think we are more capable of breaking down the Stoke's and Wolves' of this world. Thats where we need to improve.

1) Both teams dropped points last year that they wouldn;t have previously. Indeed, I really don't beleive either of them would have won the league a few years ago,with the number of games they lost.
United: they are in a financially perilous position; of their defensive lynchpins, Ferdinand is in danger of becoming their very own Leldey King, whereas Vidic is wanted elsewhere, and has basically said he wants to go; most of their best players are on the verge (and this could prove to be a season too far) - i.e. Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Van Der Saar, and,not only have they not replaced these, but they haven't replaced Roy Keane - if such a thing is possible; none of their signing so far strike me as players who are going to bring them anything for a few years yet, and Fergy does make some huge gaffs in the TM - especially where Latin American players are concerned; they have never replaced Quieroz,and Fergy has to retire eventually, and will be handing on the proverbial poisoned chalice, - indeed, those who remember, will recall just how sudden and relatively unexpected Brian Clough's demise was; the fans can't stand the owners and their is a constant and growing clamour of discontent at their games. This doesn't mean they WILL have a bad season, just that it woldn't be wholly unexpected, if several of these factors prove correct, for them to have a poor season by their stabndards.

Chelsea: Put simply, Ancelotti inherited an experienced and successful team. It doesn't take much for 'experience' to become ageing. It has already begun to break-up . they are losing Ballack, Joe Cole and Deco, already, and Beletti has gone, too. There is no evidence that Ancelotti is going to know the type of players from overseas (which is what he knows) who will succeed in the English game. Would he really be the first manager to inherit a team, achieve success and then fail to progress, or progress immediately, after the team broke up (cf Rafa Benitez, and, to a lesser extent, Obscene Whinger, for example). Add to this that they looked decidedly fragile at times last year,and Ancelotti clearly failed to get to grips with the English game at times (like when we kicked their Chav arses:grin, and that they are no longer even head bullies on the block, anymore, and there is no more evidence that they will improve than there is that they won't.

2) Firstly, I think, as showed at Stoke last season, Eidur, or similar, will allow us to do that - I am counting on him coming back, and being fitter; secondly, I think these are just the type of players Aitch/Levy are looking to bring in, and they will be successful in that; thirdly, as I keep-on saying, the fact that our young and exciting squad will a year older, with one another for another year, with the stability of the same manager, etc., etc., means that the improvement they are capable of is an unknown, so, maybe even without purchases, they wouldn't struggle quite so much.

 

[EmperorKabir]

we need a good season in the CL and come second in our groups at least to attract decent players. then we need to qualify again next year (with difficulty) and perhaps at that point will we attract them.

also wages.

 

[SpurSince57]

Is this just another idiot Harry-bashing thread?

 

[Coyboy]

It is possible.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Is this just another idiot Harry-bashing thread?

Look ,Harry is not an idiot...typical '57 kneejerk anti Harry post..and we haven't even started the season yet..

Some people :roll:

 

[sunnydelight786]

No one is bashing HR here, well I'm not, but simply am asking the question has our qualification for the CL really made any diference to the players we can attract? It's a quite simple and honest question to ask. But like usual the like's of SS57 take that simple question as another Harry bashing thread....:roll:

 

[StartingPrice]

No one is bashing HR here, well I'm not, but simply am asking the question has our qualification for the CL really made any diference to the players we can attract? It's a quite simple and honest question to ask. But like usual the like's of SS57 take that simple question as another Harry bashing thread....:roll:

:up:

 

[Locotoro]

United: they are in a financially perilous position; of their defensive lynchpins, Ferdinand is in danger of becoming their very own Leldey King, whereas Vidic is wanted elsewhere, and has basically said he wants to go; most of their best players are on the verge (and this could prove to be a season too far) - i.e. Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Van Der Saar, and,not only have they not replaced these, but they haven't replaced Roy Keane - if such a thing is possible; none of their signing so far strike me as players who are going to bring them anything for a few years yet, and Fergy does make some huge gaffs in the TM - especially where Latin American players are concerned; they have never replaced Quieroz,and Fergy has to retire eventually, and will be handing on the proverbial poisoned chalice, - indeed, those who remember, will recall just how sudden and relatively unexpected Brian Clough's demise was; the fans can't stand the owners and their is a constant and growing clamour of discontent at their games. This doesn't mean they WILL have a bad season, just that it woldn't be wholly unexpected, if several of these factors prove correct, for them to have a poor season by their stabndards.

Fair points

Chelsea: Put simply, Ancelotti inherited an experienced and successful team. It doesn't take much for 'experience' to become ageing. It has already begun to break-up . they are losing Ballack, Joe Cole and Deco, already, and Beletti has gone, too. There is no evidence that Ancelotti is going to know the type of players from overseas (which is what he knows) who will succeed in the English game. Would he really be the first manager to inherit a team, achieve success and then fail to progress, or progress immediately, after the team broke up (cf Rafa Benitez, and, to a lesser extent, Obscene Whinger, for example). Add to this that they looked decidedly fragile at times last year,and Ancelotti clearly failed to get to grips with the English game at times (like when we kicked their Chav arses:grin, and that they are no longer even head bullies on the block, anymore, and there is no more evidence that they will improve than there is that they won't.

Hmm, well they have signed Benayoun and recalled Rajković from his 2 year loan at Twente early, so they have been filling the gaps with able players. Although the proverbial night is young and transfers are have been rumoured to be in the offing. Although I take your point that there is as much evidence to suggest that they will and wont improve

2) Firstly, I think, as showed at Stoke last season, Eidur, or similar, will allow us to do that - I am counting on him coming back, and being fitter; secondly, I think these are just the type of players Aitch/Levy are looking to bring in, and they will be successful in that; thirdly, as I keep-on saying, the fact that our young and exciting squad will a year older, with one another for another year, with the stability of the same manager, etc., etc., means that the improvement they are capable of is an unknown, so, maybe even without purchases, they wouldn't struggle quite so much.

But with the lack of specific signings we will still have the same problems that we had last season, namely inability to break down static, heavily numbered defences and two main goalscorers who are unable to maintain a goalscoring run over the course of a season, and; resorting to a long ball when the moment Crouch's big toe hits the field.

I'm not doom-mongering by any stretch as I do think we will improve by the very reasons you've given but I still see certain flaws in our armour and I feel we are capable of faster progress this season.

 

[StartingPrice]

1) Fair points


2) Hmm, well they have signed Benayoun and recalled Rajković from his 2 year loan at Twente early, so they have been filling the gaps with able players. Although the proverbial night is young and transfers are have been rumoured to be in the offing. Although I take your point that there is as much evidence to suggest that they will and wont improve



3) But with the lack of specific signings we will still have the same problems that we had last season, namely inability to break down static, heavily numbered defences and 4) two main goalscorers who are unable to maintain a goalscoring run over the course of a season, and; 5) resorting to a long ball when the moment Crouch's big toe hits the field.

6) I'm not doom-mongering by any stretch as I do think we will improve by the very reasons you've given but 7) I still see certain flaws in our armour and I feel we are capable of faster progress this season.

1) :up:;

2) With Chelsea it really is hard to call. Like I said, they are losing some top players (and Joe Cole - if you would believe some SCers:roll, and Ancelotti could have just been making the best of the squad he inherited and turn out to be very poor in the trandfer market. But the flip side is that Abram has said he will back him in the transfer market and he might buy perfect players for EPL...we just don't know. I think folk should realise I am not making these arguments as support to a claim that we WILL win the league, just that we might have an outside chance the mix, and we would be as reliant as we were this season of all of our competitors 1st - 8/9th taking points of one another again;

3) True, but, as I have said previously, we brough Guddy on at the Potteries and it did the trick, anything before then and he wasn't match fit, I am hoping Bale/Luka/Thudd etc. offer more of a goal threat next year, and think they will, and, we still will fail to break the occasional team down, it happens;

4) Which is a worry, see 3 above, and we will just have to have faith that Dan/Aitch will buy a forward who is gonna 'do his job' more consistently (I still think Huntlelaar is about the level we should be aspiring to, would thrive in EPL, and is just the type of character 'Arry likes to get his mits onto);

5) Yeah, they have to stop that. Thankfully, Janie RedKnapp knows about it, so 'Arry will, and might just inculcate them with better principles. What is most frustrating about it is that Crouchie is better than that and they don't need to do it;

6) Doom-monger:razz:;

7) Yeah but all teams will always have some (hate sounding like Yoda here:grin, otherwise, the Arabs would just buy the best 25 players in the World, and we could parade all trophies up to (B)Eastlands before the season starts, and then the players could get back to what they like best - being pot-bellied couch-potatoes with blonde airhead WAG simpering around them:wink:

 

[dannythomas]

I think it is true that if we are going to make the next step - challenge to win trophies , look to get through Group Stages of CL - we need to upgrade some weaker areas of our squad. We are fine for midfielders / wide players . We are Ok at LB. I think Kaboul may have found his best spot at RB so with Corluka we should be OK there too.
But we must have a CD with pace to partner Dawson as we simply cannot rely on Ledley or Woodgate. Bassong is a good back up player. But it is time to sign a really top quality defender to partner Dawson or King when he is fit.
Up front we don't have the blend right. For a short time last season it looked like Pav might step up but I think we need a real top level striker and let Crouch or Pav go. I would like to see Keane given another season to compete with Defoe for the other spot.
So 2 really top players are all we need. Plus back up for Gomes. I would be more than happy with that. But it might cost us 50m for those players - would Levy ever pay that ? . We could balance that with say 15-20m coming in by selling Jenas, Pav and Gio.

 

[ShelfSide18]

I think it is true that if we are going to make the next step - challenge to win trophies , look to get through Group Stages of CL - we need to upgrade some weaker areas of our squad. We are fine for midfielders / wide players . We are Ok at LB. I think Kaboul may have found his best spot at RB so with Corluka we should be OK there too.
But we must have a CD with pace to partner Dawson as we simply cannot rely on Ledley or Woodgate. Bassong is a good back up player. But it is time to sign a really top quality defender to partner Dawson or King when he is fit.
Up front we don't have the blend right. For a short time last season it looked like Pav might step up but I think we need a real top level striker and let Crouch or Pav go. I would like to see Keane given another season to compete with Defoe for the other spot.
So 2 really top players are all we need. Plus back up for Gomes. I would be more than happy with that. But it might cost us 50m for those players - would Levy ever pay that ? . We could balance that with say 15-20m coming in by selling Jenas, Pav and Gio.

Why is Bassong only a good back up player? For me he had as good a season from a centre back as you're likely to see - and will only get better.

I agree about Keane though.

 

[dannythomas]

I thought he started off very well but looked a little shaky towards the end. I don't say he cannot be a very good defender but if we are going to ward off Man city, stay in the top 4 , get through preliminary and group stages of CL and push for trophies I just feel we need 2 world class signings and a CD and a striker are where we need them most.

 

[Mullers]

I think we have to qualify for the CL for a couple of seasons on the spin before we start catching the big fish I think. Everyone saw how happy the players were to get fourth place, I think its given everyone at the club a big boost and the players will be hungry for more success.

In truth I've always been happy if we just qualify for the Europa cup.

A good run or winning the cup helps to build confidence in the team and increases the clubs profile in Europe.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Everyone saw how happy the players were to get fourth place, I think its given everyone at the club a big boost and the players will be hungry for more success.

In truth I've always been happy if we just qualify for the Europa cup.

I really hope you're right . The CC final win did the opposite to being hungry for more success 'We've done it' seemed the attitude afterwards. I suspect that many here are like me...are still pinching themselves about CL qualification in disbelief . If we are, then maybe some players are . Are they still thinking 'We've done it' ?..... dangerous mental place..the Burnley match (our last competitive match) was a good example of Spurs in their 'We've done it' mode .

 

[Mullers]

I really hope you're right . The CC final win did the opposite to being hungry for more success 'We've done it' seemed the attitude afterwards. I suspect that many here are like me...are still pinching themselves about CL qualification in disbelief . If we are, then maybe some players are . Are they still thinking 'We've done it' ?..... dangerous mental place..the Burnley match (our last competitive match) was a good example of Spurs in their 'We've done it' mode .

Yeah the Burnley match was a disgrace like the spurs of old, a lot of people here seemed to write that match off as an irrelevance but top sides don't let a relegated side score four goals against them having gone two up. This was with a full strength side too, King and Dawson in defence.

I think that Redknapp handles the players better than Ramos did, hopefully he will keep the players reminded of the task ahead.

 

[SpurSince57]

Yeah the Burnley match was a disgrace like the spurs of old, a lot of people here seemed to write that match off as an irrelevance but top sides don't let a relegated side score four goals against them having gone two up. This was with a full strength side too, King and Dawson in defence.

I think that Redknapp handles the players better than Ramos did, hopefully he will keep the players reminded of the task ahead.

Like in 60-61, you mean?

 

[Mullers]

I wish.

 

[StartingPrice]

Yeah the Burnley match was a disgrace like the spurs of old, a lot of people here seemed to write that match off as an irrelevance but top sides don't let a relegated side score four goals against them having gone two up. This was with a full strength side too, King and Dawson in defence.

I think that Redknapp handles the players better than Ramos did, hopefully he will keep the players reminded of the task ahead.

I said it at the time and I'll say it again:
The Burnley match was probably the best thing that could've happened. Aitch was clearly furious, and 'out a rocket up their arses' (I'm presuming putting rockets up young men's arses is a trick he learned from WhingerEek). Surely that would leave the players thinking "if that is how he reacts when we lose a totally menaingless match due to complacency, how will he react if it matters?". Or some such. Let's hope it has drummed into their heads.

I hope so, 'cos I believe this is an exciting and improving young squad of great potential, but one thing they cannot afford is comlpacency.

 

[Mullers]

I said it at the time and I'll say it again:
The Burnley match was probably the best thing that could've happened. Aitch was clearly furious, and 'out a rocket up their arses' (I'm presuming putting rockets up young men's arses is a trick he learned from WhingerEek). Surely that would leave the players thinking "if that is how he reacts when we lose a totally menaingless match due to complacency, how will he react if it matters?". Or some such. Let's hope it has drummed into their heads.

I hope so, 'cos I believe this is an exciting and improving young squad of great potential, but one thing they cannot afford is comlpacency.

Unfortunately I've seen us lose so many comfortable leads in the past, I've become naturally pessimistic. I'm sure a few additions of some winners to the squad can stop the regular occurrence of those kind of results.