Lack of black managers/coaches

[CaptainCat]

In fact, put together a 'Best of the Premier League, Black Vs White' game and the whites would struggle despite their being more of them.

I vaguely remember in school during lunchtime playing in a White vs Black game of football. :lol:

Black won I think.

 

[Bonjour]

I still do play in blacks v whites football games occasionally at work. Just seems a fairly easy way to split the teams without using bibs or trying to pick teams.

 

[TheChosenOne]

I vaguely remember in school during lunchtime playing in a White vs Black game of football. :lol:

Black won I think.

I went to primary/junior school in Clapton, London E.9. as a Catholic Kid in those days we didn't have our own local school but shared in with a C of E called Millfields not too far from Clapton Pond although our part was an annexe and even the playgrounds were segregated with an invisible religious divide, basically : "Cafliks" at one end and "Prods" at the other.

In one particularly bad winter - probably 1962 or '63 I remember a lot of snow on the ground and the six or so newly arrived black kids from the Windies in the school being lined up by the older boys and relentlessly pelted with snowballs in a firing squad style.

What an inauguration and welcome that must been, straight from the Caribbean, - no wonder they grew up with chips on their shoulders !

 

[Blotto]

Exactly I agree and that’s how I read Stokely Carmichael

To quote you:

"His definition was something like when an organization discriminates, overtly or otherwise, in the provision of services etc,",

Which is the same as my definition; "An Organization" not some people in it.

You then go on to mention patterns and that is my point there is no pattern.
It is simply not good enough to look at a situation and place an interpretation on it as fact based on no substantial evidence or pattern and I see no pattern, and neither does anyone else because there is no pattern to see.

The reason I am adamant on this is because as a long time supporter of positive discrimination I have argued and fought for it and have the bruises and scars to show.
The facts of life are that without positive discrimination jobs go to sons, daughters nephews nieces friends and acquaintances as was witnessed in the Fire Brigade, the Police force, even the post office and don’t even mention the building trade.

In Football there is no place to hide and the stakes are too high for this situation to survive and true enough it hasn’t.

Fair enough, and I admire your passion.

I'm not sure if by "evidence" you mean only "statistics" or if scholarly historical work will suffice (surely you aren't asking for evidence of racism in English football, b/c there is ample evidence of that on a variety of levels from a variety of sources); I have done no research of my own (aside from pursuing an interest) but here are a couple of books (and an article) that I have found interesting:

Football: The First Hundred Years--Harvey, A.
British Football and Social Exclusion--ed. Wagg, S. (includes some more sociological oriented research, along with historical and cultural studies type stuff)
The Changing Face of Football: Racism, Identity and Multiculture in the English game--Back, L., Crabbe, T. and Solomos, J. (for the more empirically grounded )
"Selling the Game Short: an Examination of the Role of Anti-Racism in British Football" (1999) Sociology of Sport Journal 16(1)--Garland, J. and Rowe, M.

 

[Mullers]

Friday, 17 August, 2001, 13:34 GMT 14:34 UK
Football staff recruitment 'racist'

Ninety-nine per cent of administrative staff in football are white, according to a study.

Researchers from Leicester University say they have found clear evidence of institutional racism in football clubs in England and Wales.

The report found that only one in nine clubs had a written equal opportunities policy to recruit administrative staff.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1495744.stm
If we cannot agree on the term institutional racism can we at least agree "that there is evidence of racism in the institutions within the football industry" as Bill said? And that it is not a minor problem?The Football authorities would not have agreed to sign up to the CRE's action plan to change the way clubs and the game's ruling bodies operate if they thought that the CRE's report was a load of crap.

There are some people in society who use their colour as an excuse for not succeeding but I don't think it applies to the people in the articles I posted in my opinion. I would also agree that there really is ample evidence to show racism in Englih football.

 

[jondesouza]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1495744.stm
If we cannot agree on the term institutional racism can we at least agree "that there is evidence of racism in the institutions within the football industry" as Bill said? And that it is not a minor problem?

Absolutely. Been happy to agree that from the outset - and that level of racism is obviously a problem.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Look, lets boil this down - there are many races and religions in this country who, proportionally, are not equally employed in certain areas, but 99% of the time the reason isn't due to some issue of bigotry, it's because a majority of those skilled to do that job happen to be of a certain colour - we live in Britain, a majority white population, therefore, by percentages, surely it will always be likely you'll find more white English employed in a particular trade or job? :shrug:

How about, seeing as it's gone 4am and we've blown this open to general racism - how about the building industry right now? Is it racist that there are now likely to soon be more Polish and Eastern Europeans working in the building and labour industries than
white English? Ok, it's based on the fact that they will work for less, but money aside, why is it ok for a foreign community to saturate one of our business sectors (for want of better words and a clearer head at this dumb hour) but, if an employer does choose to give the job to someone simply because he'd prefer to employ a white Englishman in a particular role, over, say a black man or Asian fella, then the question of racism comes into it.

Stop being so f*cking negative!!! Not everyone is out to beat down the mexican/bangladeshi/somalian or whatever - sometimes it just so happens that you'll meet someone in this world, like me, to who race means NOTHING. You'd be really surprised how many of us there are.

If the world and people who have posted in this thread really are concerned with everyone getting an equal "crack of the whip" (ooops :up: I got the slot before Bill for the matinee i think) and could actually see how hypocritical it is to cry for an end to segregation due to skin colour to the guy on your left, then turning to the guy on your right and telling him all the reasons skin colour matters to your job prospects :shrug: It either matters or it doesn't.

Personally i hope Ince does really well at his new job, if for no other reason than to prove that, if they're good enough, the colour of your skin means nothing as to you landing a job as a premiership manager. Is that what it'll take? One guy succeeding where others have failed trying? Where many, many more white guys have failed trying?

If i was Incey, i'd be kinda annoyed that all this attention was being drawn to my skin colour, rather than managerial abilities - Mullers, i need to ask you - do you think that his race was a contributing factor to him getting the job? If not, can you not see why it's so petty for the media to stir this up and rattle the cage of the right wing?

 

[Mullers]

Look, lets boil this down - there are many races and religions in this country who, proportionally, are not equally employed in certain areas, but 99% of the time the reason isn't due to some issue of bigotry, it's because a majority of those skilled to do that job happen to be of a certain colour - we live in Britain, a majority white population, therefore, by percentages, surely it will always be likely you'll find more white English employed in a particular trade or job? :shrug:

How about, seeing as it's gone 4am and we've blown this open to general racism - how about the building industry right now? Is it racist that there are now likely to soon be more Polish and Eastern Europeans working in the building and labour industries than
white English? Ok, it's based on the fact that they will work for less, but money aside, why is it ok for a foreign community to saturate one of our business sectors (for want of better words and a clearer head at this dumb hour) but, if an employer does choose to give the job to someone simply because he'd prefer to employ a white Englishman in a particular role, over, say a black man or Asian fella, then the question of racism comes into it.

You've practically answered your question already. Its based on the fact they will work for less and actually work many hours in a lot of cases. They do many jobs that your white englishman doesn't want to do. There are also many Australians, south Africans, new zealanders working in the industry too. If a black/ Asian person is more qualified than the white person but the white person gets the job and the explanation given to the non white person is their personality wasn't right for the job and no further explanation is given... Well... it should at least raise some questions.

Stop being so f*cking negative!!! Not everyone is out to beat down the mexican/bangladeshi/somalian or whatever - sometimes it just so happens that you'll meet someone in this world, like me, to who race means NOTHING. You'd be really surprised how many of us there are.

Plenty of people are so scared of this R word. Its not a matter of being negative, its a matter of being a realist, its a matter of being human and humans aren't perfect. If you say there are many people out there who don't practice racism, don't believe in the ideology of it then I can believe it. If you're telling me you're completely non racist or anyone else is, there are no feelings of racism existing in the subconscious/unconscious mind ever. Thats not something I can believe because no one is perfect. The darker your skin the more likely it is you will receive racism. why do you think that is? Because the world is non racist generally? Nope

If the world and people who have posted in this thread really are concerned with everyone getting an equal "crack of the whip" (ooops :up: I got the slot before Bill for the matinee i think) and could actually see how hypocritical it is to cry for an end to segregation due to skin colour to the guy on your left, then turning to the guy on your right and telling him all the reasons skin colour matters to your job prospects :shrug: It either matters or it doesn't.

Personally i hope Ince does really well at his new job, if for no other reason than to prove that, if they're good enough, the colour of your skin means nothing as to you landing a job as a premiership manager. Is that what it'll take? One guy succeeding where others have failed trying? Where many, many more white guys have failed trying?

If i was Incey, i'd be kinda annoyed that all this attention was being drawn to my skin colour, rather than managerial abilities - Mullers, i need to ask you - do you think that his race was a contributing factor to him getting the job? If not, can you not see why it's so petty for the media to stir this up and rattle the cage of the right wing?

As john Barnes said and I agree "If he doesn't succeed, does that count against all black managers? I don't think so, just as if he does succeed it doesn't mean all black managers are good." As I said many times previously my concern is about equally opportunities I don't expect there to be an equal amount of black and white managers or even close to it. Research done by very qualified people suggests there is some work to be done in the area of fair opportunities. I don't believe his race was a contributing factor getting the job but I think its not bad for the media to discuss the issue of black managers or racism in football. You imply there is nothing to discuss when in fact there is.