Lack of black managers/coaches

[worcestersauce]

I have to (slightly) stick up for Mullers here.

He (hopefully) isn't claiming that there are many visible signs of racism in football. That's pretty clear. There are plenty of excellent black footballers. In fact, put together a 'Best of the Premier League, Black Vs White' game and the whites would struggle despite their being more of them.

Anyway, where there IS racism - as I demonstrated earlier - is in the Boardroom. And all of you thinking of Levy, Glazers, Abramovich, etc, those AREN'T boardrooms. Those are bloody play factories for the rich and famous and really don't count. I mean places like Bury, Stockport, Tranmere, Rotherham, etc. I couldn't tell you who these Chairman are now, and I've chosen them arbitrarily from areas that I know - for cast-iron fact - are likely to have owners in their 60s, 70s and 80s, who don't share the values of every poster in this thread. They won't actively display racism because they understand the negative PR, but behind closed doors and even in rooms with black people their language would shock and stun most right-thinking people.

They are bigots, sexists, chauvanists, and, yes, racists.

mullers did say there is Institutionalized racism in the game and that means that it is rife, all pervasive and dictates all decisions made in the game which is clearly not the case.
Moreover be careful what you say Bill, are you saying that black players are better than white players? what are you basing this on because I hope to God you are not basing this on any strereotypical idea that black people are naturally more athletic than white people because that would imply racial differences and mullers would infer subtle racism from that.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

:lol: Shit, rumbled. Err, what I meant was, every player is exactly as good as every other player. Including, and especially, Milenko Acimovic and Pele.


I suppose this debate rests quite strongly on what 'institutionally racist' means. I think football is institutionally racist in that the institutions that run football, i.e. the clubs, are racist at many levels of the game. However, I would say that given the fact that black people can still succeed as players and are beginning to establish themselves as managers (as SS57 says, I believe this trend will continue as the current crop of players retire), then I don't think the problem is terminal, or big enough to require further 'surgery' than it is receiving at the moment.

 

[Real_madyidd]

So, anyone noticed that Paul Ince is black.

 

[yanno]

A couple of observations.

I watched the movie "Scum" on ITV4 a week or so ago. "Scum" was made in 1977-79 and eventually broadcast in 1983 (amidst frantic attempts by Mary Whitehouse to ban it because of its criticism of Borstals). "Scum" remains an excellent expose of the Borstal system, but watching it now, in 2008, it's also a very revealing insight into the 70s. Anthropologists could base a PhD thesis on it. It's clearly the case that the language used towards the black borstal boys, by screw and inmate alike, is very racist and would be totally unacceptable now.

Ron Atkinson grew up in those times. However, I still found his broadcast comments about Marcel Desailly pretty sickening, and the fact that they were inadvertently broadcast is largely irrelevant. What shocked me was both that those words came out of his mouth (even allowing for the era in which he grew up), and because they suggested deeper racial stereotypes.

"Fucking lazy thick nigger" is at no level an accurate description of Marcel Desailly, who was a Rolls Royce of a CB, and is an intelligent and thoughtful man (fluent in several languages). Back in the old days, the racist wisdom stated that blacks couldn't play Quarter Back in American Football because they were considered "too stupid", and in football they were often played in flair positions (eg winger), or out of the way at FB, because they weren't considered to have the "mental discipline" of white players. These racist stereotypes have long since been disproved by outstanding black players excelling in all positions.

Probably unconsciously, imo Atkinson was harping back to these tired old stereotypes in his comments on Desailly.

However, against that, the players who knew and had played for Big Ron came out in support of him, stating that he wasn't a racist and that he'd been a fair-minded manager. So, on balance, over the course of his career, Atkinson has almost certainly done more good than bad in helping to break down the racial barriers and in helping young black footballers to fulfil their potential.

Hopefully, the generation of players represented by Mark Hughes, Roy Keane, Paul Ince etc no longer have the old racist stereotypes evident in films like "Scum" as part of their mental baggage. Like Bill_Oddie though, I suspect those attitudes may survive in certain boardrooms.

I believe the thoughtful SC member WalworthYid is related to the Regis family and, if he's around, I'd be very interested in his views on all of this.

 

[idlepete]

And you don't have to go much further back to find these attitudes were not just prevalent but actually celebrated, and by the establishment rather than just by the denizens of your common-or-garden hive of scum and villainy like Borstal. "If you want a nigger for a neighbour, vote Labour." Those cheeky racist Tories.

 

[Real_madyidd]

"Fucking lazy thick nigger" is at no level an accurate description of Marcel Desailly, who was a Rolls Royce of a CB, and is an intelligent and thoughtful man (fluent in several languages). Back in the old days, the racist wisdom stated that blacks couldn't play Quarter Back in American Football because they were considered "too stupid", and in football they were often played in flair positions (eg winger), or out of the way at FB, because they weren't considered to have the "mental discipline" of white players. These racist stereotypes have long since been disproved by outstanding black players excelling in all positions.

Probably unconsciously, imo Atkinson was harping back to these tired old stereotypes in his comments on Desailly.

I disagree with some of your point here. I watched the game when Atkinson said "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick nigger." And to be honest I think he was talking about the way he played that day, because he was fucking lazy, and played shit that day. I think on that day Atkinson was actually correct, but should not have said "nigger".

 

[yanno]

I disagree with some of your point here. I watched the game when Atkinson said "He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick nigger." And to be honest I think he was talking about the way he played that day, because he was fucking lazy, and played shit that day. I think on that day Atkinson was actually correct, but should not have said "nigger".

I disagree. We've all seen Chimbonda lose concentration on occasion. It's entirely acceptable for a coach or a commentator or a fan to draw attention to Chimbo's occasional lapses in concentration. But his skin colour is irrelevant here. It would not only be unacceptable, it would also be wrong, to leap from saying "he's prone to occasional lapses in concentration" to he's a "fucking lazy thick nigger".

 

[Bonjour]

Is it because they is shit?

 

[Blotto]

Sorry, but it was. 'Blackies', 'niggers' and 'darkies' were commonplace terms. 'Blacks' was an insulting term when I was a kid. No-one thought anything of 'Pakis', either—and that still seems a ludicrous distinction to me; I don't refer to Afghans or Kazakhs as 'Afghanistanis' or 'Kazakhstanis'. I can understand why 'Paki' is verboten, because it's been adopted by racists as a term of abuse, but it's still pretty illogical. When I went up to university at Leeds in 1969 I met Asians for the first time—and several of the grocers displayed 'Indo-Pak' or 'Indo-Paki' signs.

I still refer casually to Germans as 'Krauts' and 'squareheads'. I shouldn't, but I do. I was brought up on a diet of WWII comic books, and by grandparents and parents who'd been through one or two world wars, not to mention the miseries of the inter-war years, and lost relatives and friends. It's impossible to eradicate that. Like I said, my nan used to call my Jewish friends at junior school 'Jewboys'—nothing was meant by it, she was happy to bring out the tea and cakes (the latter, I suddenly realise, probably had a high lard content, but no-one bothered) when I brought them home, and she thought they were nice polite lads, unlike some of my gentile friends.

I don't know how old you are, Mullers, but you seem to be demanding nineties and noughties norms of those who, for want of a better term, didn't know any better.

I think you misunderstood. Mullers was saying that it was not acceptable to Black people to be called those names; such language while it may be common parlance at one time has a huge effect on those that it is directed to (take a look at Franz Fanon's discussion of the n-word in Black Skin, White Masks--he was writing in the 50s, mind). Surely you would agree that it would be ludicrous to suggest that any black man, woman or child would find it acceptable to be called the n-word.

 

[joey55]

I think you misunderstood. Mullers was saying that it was not acceptable to Black people to be called those names; such language while it may be common parlance at one time has a huge effect on those that it is directed to (take a look at Franz Fanon's discussion of the n-word in Black Skin, White Masks--he was writing in the 50s, mind). Surely you would agree that it would be ludicrous to suggest that any black man, woman or child would find it acceptable to be called the n-word.

Oh come on! Anyone who has any knowledge of popular culture (ie cinema, music, TV etc) knows that isn't at all true.

 

[HuggyBear]

Oh come on! Anyone who has any knowledge of popular culture (ie cinema, music, TV etc) knows that isn't at all true.

Fo Shizzle ma nigga!!

 

[pagevee]

I think you misunderstood. Mullers was saying that it was not acceptable to Black people to be called those names; such language while it may be common parlance at one time has a huge effect on those that it is directed to (take a look at Franz Fanon's discussion of the n-word in Black Skin, White Masks--he was writing in the 50s, mind). Surely you would agree that it would be ludicrous to suggest that any black man, woman or child would find it acceptable to be called the n-word.

Oh come on! Anyone who has any knowledge of popular culture (ie cinema, music, TV etc) knows that isn't at all true.

I guess the distinction you need is this. Surely you would agree that it would be ludicrous to suggest that any black man, woman or child would find it acceptable to be called the n-word by a white person (typically known as a cracker).

I've personally seen the nicest guys (black) I know go crazy when called the n-word. It is hard to calm the situation down, especially when the offending person is a friend of both parties (still inappropriate and offensive). Oh yeah, and the black guys wife is white and their daughter is mixed, so to call him a 'militant' activist of black culture would be ridiculous.

 

[joey55]

I guess the distinction you need is this. Surely you would agree that it would be ludicrous to suggest that any black man, woman or child would find it acceptable to be called the n-word by a white person (typically known as a cracker).

I've personally seen the nicest guys (black) I know go crazy when called the n-word. It is hard to calm the situation down, especially when the offending person is a friend of both parties (still inappropriate and offensive).

In the UK - Honkey

 

[pagevee]

In the UK - Honkey

Yeah, I can't find the SNL skit with Richard Pryor and Steve Martin. That is possibly the best skit ever.

 

[van_Pommel]

Has anyone seen Coach Carter where he does that speach on why the players shouldn't call each other the 'n word'. I found that quite inspiring. I'm white so it's not for me to say how offending it is, I do however feel that if you dont want to be called something then dont call each other it. Particularly when kids these days, white kids included, seem to be picking up all this 'innit blud' lingo. If a white kid doesn't know any better and the 'n word' slips out they could end up getting they're head kicked in, when no racism was meant at all.

 

[TheChosenOne]

Has anyone seen Coach Carter where he does that speach on why the players shouldn't call each other the 'n word'. I found that quite inspiring. I'm white so it's not for me to say how offending it is, I do however feel that if you dont want to be called something then dont call each other it. Particularly when kids these days, white kids included, seem to be picking up all this 'innit blud' lingo. If a white kid doesn't know any better and the 'n word' slips out they could end up getting they're head kicked in, when no racism was meant at all.

Aha.

Is "whigger" bad ? (By saying bad I mean bad, not good)

 

[pagevee]

Aha.

Is "whigger" bad ? (By saying bad I mean bad, not good)

My pet peeve. I absolutely can't stand "Yo'Boys"

After years of seeing suburban middle/upper class kids pretending to be ghetto, I have developed an inner hatred for the Yo'boys/whiggers. They drive me absolutely crazy.
To answer the question asked, technically it developed as the term for a white n-word. However, black people I know could care less about the term in general. I tend to avoid the word regardless since its origin is the n-word.

 

[Real_madyidd]

A quite like being called a "Honkey". Not sure where it comes from yet I find it funny.

 

[TheChosenOne]

A quite like being called a "Honkey". Not sure where it comes from yet I find it funny.

I first heard the word honkey in "Love thy neighbour" from the 1970's with Rudolph Walker (Now of Enders)

 

[van_Pommel]

My pet peeve. I absolutely can't stand "Yo'Boys"

After years of seeing suburban middle/upper class kids pretending to be ghetto, I have developed an inner hatred for the Yo'boys/whiggers. They drive me absolutely crazy.
To answer the question asked, technically it developed as the term for a white n-word. However, black people I know could care less about the term in general. I tend to avoid the word regardless since its origin is the n-word.

I have that same pet peeve mate.

Had an interesting convo in the office the other day about the current generation of teens dialogue. All this innit blud gangsta speak is worrying really as they dont seem to be growing out of it and no-one in their right mind would give someone a job who came to an interview talking like that. I work for a recruitment agency so its quite topical for us. Luckily we work at a higher level than that which a teen/early 20s would be applying for so we dont have to deal with 'getto kids' much but in a few years time when they're all in their late 30's, London's offices and other places of work may well sound like a blazing squad video.