Lack of black managers/coaches

[Blotto]

Oh come on! Anyone who has any knowledge of popular culture (ie cinema, music, TV etc) knows that isn't at all true.

You make the mistake of confusing the words as the same, regardless of the form of address and the occasion for speaking--a white person saying the word "nigger" (and I'm sorry to have to type it) to a black person carries with an entire psychology of racism, is part of a much larger discourse of racism--in this occasion the term used to address a black man/woman/child signifies a distinctive power relationship within the discourse of racism, it signifies the classification of the addressee as subhuman (at the very least)--look at Fanon, his description of the psychology of this speech, regardless of what you may think of him, is top notch.

Two black men (for instance) using the word "nigga" is a distinctly different form of address, the term has a history of its own rooted in African-American dialect which has a sort of dynamic linguistic relationship to the language of racism and indeed the larger discourse which needs to be understood. I don't have the time to lecture on racist discourse in America and African-American cultural-linguistic responses to it, but suffice it to say that the term "nigga" is an appropriation of the term "nigger" commonly used as a negative word (from what I can tell, the term was always considered insulting)--whereas "negro" or "negroe" was often used in more formal, shall we say "mannered" settings (like slave auction advertisements). The context here is thus different from the one above, no?--some have even argued that the term is a form of solidarity, an identification of mutual histories and mutual interests; whether that specific argument makes sense or not, it should be clear that the situation is far from simple.

Indeed, the they-do-it-why-can't-we argument is a common one but I would suggest it ignores the fact that a) contextual differences, differences in the occasion for speech, the form of address have an enormous impact; obviously white people and black people experience racism and racist discourse in very different and dynamic ways that effect their interactions amongst themselves and each other and b) not all black people find the use of the term "nigga" acceptable, the argument makes it seem as if every black person in every situation will use the term or accept its use which is certainly a false generalization.

Well, I think I'm about done. That's my argument. Take it for what its worth...off to watch some tennis and then a Turkish triumph!

 

[Blotto]

Good thing I made that long post when someone already addressed the issue perfectly and simply! Good post pagevee!

 

[TheChosenOne]

Here in Hertford well out of the M25 by 15 miles or so we have a strange situation, when boys hit about 13 they develop the ghetto-speak.

Words laike, aryte, innit.

My lot start and I is gunna box em dahn.

 

[Blotto]

Here in Hertford well out of the M25 by 15 miles or so we have a strange situation, when boys hit about 13 they develop the ghetto-speak.

Words laike, aryte, innit.

My lot start and I is gunna box em dahn.

Just what kids do! Each generation is horrified by the habits of the one that follows it. The reaction is almost as predictable as the change in habits.

 

[Mullers]

mullers did say there is
Moreover be careful what you say Bill, are you saying that black players are better than white players? what are you basing this on because I hope to God you are not basing this on any strereotypical idea that black people are naturally more athletic than white people because that would imply racial differences and mullers would infer subtle racism from that.

I chose not to make any comment on what Bill said because I didnt want it to snowball into a debate of the kind you indicated. I've had this debate with some people before in the past and I haven't inferred that anyone was racist because they wished to discuss it.

 

[Mullers]

See, I don't think anyone doubts that racism exists in football and much of it is subtle as you describe. However, I would certainly argue that football is not institutionally racist. Earlier in the thread you've stated that:



Using that definition I'm quite happy to accept that particular clubs are institutionally racist. This doesn't mean at all that football is institutionally racist.

fair enough, prove it!

racism from the terraces i would agre with, to a degree, although this seems to be diminishing
within the industry, got no idea, but from the evidence of my eyes, i would guess not.
huge numbers of black, chinese, muslim and other creed of players are thriving within the game without prejudice

mullers did say there is Institutionalized racism in the game and that means that it is rife, all pervasive and dictates all decisions made in the game which is clearly not the case.

I'm just going to post some quotes from articles that you may wish to take a look at.

"There's prejudice every which way. The majority of owners are white, so it stands to reason," said the former Stockport manager and England midfielder Carlton Palmer. "Life is harder if you're black - you have to be better than the other people around you." Aside from the better known examples, those black managers who have achieved success have tended to stay in the lower divisions.

Glass ceiling
Macclesfield's Keith Alexander has a good record, but remains at a Division Two club. Former Torquay manager Leroy Rosenior was expected to rapidly climb the ladder after achieving initial success but, at the age of 43, he is now working in the media.

"Chairmen tend to go for people they know," he said. "Relationships are built on first reactions. Some chairmen may find it more difficult to relate to black people. I think it's subconscious and I've talked before about a glass ceiling for black managers.

"We played some great football, got promoted on a shoestring, but it didn't happen for me. There's nothing you can do about outside influences."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/03/12/sfnexc112.xml&page=1

Luther Blissett was one of the first black footballers to play in Italy, but his hopes of a ground-breaking impact in management were not realised. As a player, he gained experience abroad, played in every division of the Football League, became an England international and has since completed his coaching qualifications. To date, his only coaching jobs in the Football Leagues were spells at York City and Watford.

"I got my qualifications, started applying for jobs and didn't get interviews. I started applying at 30 and I'm now in my early 50s. People say persevere, but how long can you persevere? I started doing coaching at 17 and always knew that I wanted to stay in the game and contribute something. But eventually, you think, 'Shall I do this forever?' Attitudes have changed in many areas, but in terms of the boardroom and the organisation, there is often not the trust and belief that they can do that job. There's a perception that they can't do things. Some chairmen possibly don't want a black person to be the face of their club. They run the club and make their decisions.

"Statistics say it's getting more difficult. There are fewer English managers in the Premier League, they're taking more jobs in the Championship and it all has a knock-on effect.There needs to be more transparency. You apply for a job in football and you don't know the criteria. It's down to the personal choice of the chairman. All you want to know is that you've had a proper shout. I got the odd letter saying I didn't have the experience. That's the biggest load of rubbish. How do you get the experience if no one gives you a job?"

Case Study 2

Viv Anderson made history when he became the first black player to represent England in 1978. The enormous progress that black players have made over the past three decades, however, has not been replicated in the dug-out.

Anderson's first job in coaching was as player-manager with Barnsley in 1993-94 and he kept them in what is now the Championship. He then moved to Middlesbrough where he spent seven years as assistant to Bryan Robson. In that time, Middlesbrough achieved two promotions and reached two League Cup and one FA Cup finals. Since leaving Middlesbrough in 2001, he has not had another job offer and now runs his own company. "The statistics are scary," Anderson said. "I'm disappointed but not surprised and it's an issue which needs to be addressed. I would say my CV is pretty good, but I've just got on with doing my own thing.

"There's an unconscious racism. Black kids want role models. There were successful black players and the next thing is to have successful black managers. At the moment, they're not getting the opportunity. You get to a level and there are barriers in front of you. It used to be thought that black players were flair players - that you couldn't be in a position of responsibility. They said we couldn't play in the cold, but I used to wear short sleeves and my job was to defend - that was what Brian Clough told me to do. I think there is a preconception now that they can't perform in the boardroom."

So is there a stereotype of black players being good athletes, but perhaps not such good thinkers? "Exactly right," said Anderson

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/03/12/sfnexc112.xml&page=3

WHY ARE THERE SO FEW BLACK COACHES AND MANAGERS?

RECRUITMENT

The University of Warwick's Sue Bridgewater, who has carried out extensive research on black coaches and managers, says: "There is a general view that they are not being given the same opportunities as their white counterparts."

Crooks says the different opportunities given to former Manchester United team-mates Roy Keane and Paul Ince highlight this.



They were two of the finest central midfielders of their generation and captains of their country.

Yet Keane was handed his first managerial job at Championship side Sunderland, while Ince was passed over for a Championship job before taking over at Macclesfield, who were bottom of League Two.

"One is at the bottom of the league and the other is near the top," Crooks said. "Why is that?

"Is it because people are more comfortable with Roy Keane, his culture and the way he looks and talks?

"The view among black footballers used to be that they had to be much better than their white counterparts to get in the team. The same seems to be true of black managers now."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6376121.stm

 

[Mullers]

Paul Davis was another stalwart of the same playing era; he made his Arsenal debut against Tottenham in 1978, and played for 18 years, winning two titles before retiring in 1995. He, too, trained assiduously to be a coach, earning his Uefa A Licence, as high as he could go. He worked for seven years with Arsenal's Under-12s and Under-13s, having a hand in the graduations of, among others, Ashley Cole and Justin Hoyte.

Two jobs came up with more senior sides which Davis did not get, but they were taken by more experienced coaches. A quiet, modest character, Davis reached breaking point in May last year, when he was passed over as Arsenal's Under-17 coach, and Steve Bould was appointed. He emphasises he has no personal problem with Bould, but Bould was at the time only working through his Level 2 Certificate and so was demonstrably less qualified.

"Liam Brady, the head of youth development, told me my personality wasn't right for the job. I didn't understand that, and I never received a satisfactory answer. I felt there was no pathway for me to more senior coaching, and I left. Nothing was said about me being black, but equally nothing was wrong with my coaching, so it left me with a sense that fair opportunities were not available."

Arsenal and Brady have emphatically denied there was any racist element in their decision-making, saying: "Steve Bould was chosen for the position as the club believed him to be the best person available for the job."

However, Davis's experience informs a growing call for modern, transparent, equal opportunities selection procedures, in an arena which has too often been a jobs-for-the-boys circus. In November last year, Davis began working for the PFA to address the problem, on Tuesday, at the FA's "Football for All" conference at Bradford City's Valley Parade, he highlighted a survey of black players' attitudes. One of the stereotypes is that black players are laid-back and not interested in management, but 76 per cent of those surveyed did want to stay in the game. Asked why they believed so few were coaching, 20 per cent said there was a lack of encouragement and information, but the largest response, 36 per cent, said the cause was institutional racism at the clubs.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20041211/ai_n12824694

 

[jondesouza]

I'm sorry Mullers, but none of those quotes address my point at all. At no point does it show that football is institutionally racist - just that various clubs may be and certain club chairmen most likely are.

 

[joey55]

Those articles ignore things like Blissett went back to Watford to work as head coach, with Graham Taylor in a Director or Football type role (like Keegan and Wilkins at Fulham), but after half a season of failure, Taylor had to become a traditional manager. They also forget to mention Anderson also was a coach of the Boro side that got relegated and by saying he kept Barnsley up, is a nice way of saying he nearly got them relegated, which is why he got fired. Basically they've ignored and manipulated facts to suite their arguments. I'm not saying these coaches' defintiley haven't been looked over for racial issues' (though i doubt it), but that if they are going to illustrate football realted reasons why they should have been considered, they should also illustrate football related reasons why they might not be considered.

 

[Mullers]

Those articles ignore things like Blissett went back to Watford to work as head coach, with Graham Taylor in a Director or Football type role (like Keegan and Wilkins at Fulham), but after half a season of failure, Taylor had to become a traditional manager. They also forget to mention Anderson also was a coach of the Boro side that got relegated and by saying he kept Barnsley up, is a nice way of saying he nearly got them relegated, which is why he got fired. Basically they've ignored and manipulated facts to suite their arguments. I'm not saying these coaches' defintiley haven't been looked over for racial issues' (though i doubt it), but that if they are going to illustrate football realted reasons why they should have been considered, they should also illustrate football related reasons why they might not be considered.

I haven't seen anywhere that Blissett was head coach of watford but even if its true, it doesn't mean that he deserves to be on the scrapheap.
The Barnsley Job was Anderson's first job
Bryan Robson went on to manage Bradford City,West Bromwich Albion and Sheffield Utd didn't do particularly well at any of them.Viv Anderson wasn't given any more chances, not one? Why? Why does he get only one chance and Bryan Robson get several?

I'm sorry Mullers, but none of those quotes address my point at all. At no point does it show that football is institutionally racist - just that various clubs may be and certain club chairmen most likely are.

Clubs and Chairmen are part of football I am talking about institutionalized racism at boardroom and management level, not on the playing side. You seem to be implying that its only a few clubs that have this problem, where as I think its on a much more wider scale.Commission for Racial Equality and The Independent Football Commission have been damning of clubs and the governing bodies.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3732958.stm
Things are changing slowly but there is a clearly a long way to go. Like I stated earlier an equal opportunity for all is the least I expect.

 

[SpurSince57]

Institutionalised racism means racism that permeates the entire system from top to bottom, not instances in various boardrooms here and there.

Of that cadre of 80s black players a very high proportion indeed got coaching/management jobs—Hughton, Anderson, Cunningham, Blissett, Barnes, Leroy Rosenior, and now Ince, who had a playing career that lasted almost 25 years. Of players outside the top level there's Keith Curle and Danny Maddix. Eight out of about fifty black players in 1990 getting into coaching (and there may be others) doesn't seem a bad proportion. What are the figures for their white contemporaries? What's the failure rate?

Sorry, but unless you can produce that kind of evidence you're relying on opinion. I might as well argue that having played for United gives you an unfair advantage. Why does Bryan Robson keep getting managerial posts although he's been crap? I've no idea. I could say the same for Souness. Maybe they do a good interview. Gullit was hardly a roaring success as a manager either.

Perhaps, as Rosenior has said, there is a glass ceiling; on the other hand, those who have fallen by the wayside may have done so because they weren't very good. It does happen.

 

[Blotto]

Institutionalised racism means racism that permeates the entire system from top to bottom, not instances in various boardrooms here and there.

Not to get into a big thing (but you know I am going to when I preface my comments like that ), but that is a very broad definition of institutional or "institutionalized" racism. The term in most common usages comes from Stokely Carmichael; his definition was something like when an organization discriminates, overtly or otherwise, in the provision of services etc., to a certain group of people based on race or culture. The key point that he often made was that the term doesn't describe the result of historical patterns of discrimination and discriminatory practices, but the patterns themselves. The discriminatory attitudes, norms, practices and so on, no matter how widely held, that have become part of the functioning logic of the organization, that seem "common sense" to everyone--that is what he was talking about. Often times these practices are unspoken, not formally codified but instead the result of various attitudes that form a pattern of denial, discrimination and discouragement. The actual top to bottom presence of overt racism is not the point, it is more the assumptions made as part of the functioning of the organization. Many would go so far as to suggest that the term has nothing to do with actual attitudes of the individuals involved in an organization, but instead the social discourses of race that function without notice in everyday life. It would be absurd to argue that every single person, from the chaps in the mailrooms up to the president, in the US government is racist--but in terms of institutional racism, it is practically a case study.

Could we not argue that the examples of boardroom racism and the historical denial of equal opportunities to black coaches form a pattern of discriminatory practices that still to one degree or another effects the actual number of black coaches today? I don't think that's too far out of line; it is not to suggest that everyone in football is racist, but instead to look at the patterns historically--which I think speak for themselves. The attitude that black players are good athletes but not smart enough to coach, an attitude that almost certainly had an effect on the ability of black players to enter coaching positions after they retired, is still stubbornly present today.

Okay, I'm done...:grin:

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Thanks Blotto. That's my understanding too. I think this whole discussion could be an 'agree to disagree' as by and large it looks like we're following different definitions of the phrase.

I think Mullers would agree that a club like Chelsea (vile scum though many of their fans may be) and Spurs could not be accused of being institutionally racist and likewise joey and SS57 etc wouldn't complain at the evidence Mullers (very clearly and impressively) shows above that there is evidence of racism in the institutions within the football industry (my personal preferred definition).


Oh, and just to retreat slightly, my earlier point about black and white players has nothing to do with this discussion really, so thanks Mullers for not pursuing it. Really, it was made to further back up SS57's point that in future it will be interesting to see if ALL successful players get a fair shot at management given that nowadays there are more good black players.

 

[pagevee]

The difference between the NFL and the EPL/FA in England within managers/coaches can be summed up in the statistics. I don't feel like looking them up but I know from past experience/articles etc. that from the proportion of black NFL and College Football players to black Coaches at both the College and NFL level is ridiculously low. In all fairness, there are a lot of black assistant and position coaches among the college and NFL ranks. However, the proportion of black to white players is the majority where the proportion of black to white 'Head' coaches is disturbingly low. I believe there are only 8 or so black college coaches out of 316 NCAA Div I-A teams with Tyrone Willingham being the most successful and he is woefully inadequate for the top level. However, he runs a very clean program and personally made me proud at Notre Dame. Unfortunately his firing was a disgrace to the seemingly untarnished image of Notre Dame football that has disenfranchised me (my brother is a Golden Domer).

The rule that every head coach position must document the selection process and interview a black candidate before making a decision is a bit excessive for affirmative action. However, it has increased the number of opportunities for black coaches and lessened the ceiling that black coaches previously talked about.

Oh yeah, Eddie Robinson is the most successful black coach ever but he was given the position a long time ago at a historically black college (Grambling).

 

[Bill_Oddie]

I went to Grambling college.

Lost my whole student loan playing proker.

:hereallweek:

 

[jondesouza]

Thanks Blotto. That's my understanding too. I think this whole discussion could be an 'agree to disagree' as by and large it looks like we're following different definitions of the phrase.

Yep, think you're right on that. The definition I've always used is that the one that Mullers used earlier - where there are policies, procedures or a culture endemic in an organisation which automatically produce racist decisions or outcomes. Using that one I think it's easy to show that there are racist institutions in football but rather more difficult to show that football is institutionally racist.

Using a different definition produces a different result of course!

 

[TheChosenOne]

Well howdy doody !

Reading this thread can I suggest that America could be a racist country as well ?

After all I only have my brothers first hand experiences and he has only lived in California for 20 years. ( Apart from a recent two weeks spent here with with me)

Tinted glass ceiling anyone ?

 

[worcestersauce]

Yep, think you're right on that. The definition I've always used is that the one that Mullers used earlier - where there are policies, procedures or a culture endemic in an organisation which automatically produce racist decisions or outcomes. Using that one I think it's easy to show that there are racist institutions in football but rather more difficult to show that football is institutionally racist.

Using a different definition produces a different result of course!

You mean "using the correct definition produces a different result of course!"

 

[Blotto]

[/B]


You mean "using the correct definition produces a different result of course!"

That would be Stokely Carmichael's definition, seeing as how he coined the term. :up:

 

[worcestersauce]

That would be Stokely Carmichael's definition, seeing as how he coined the term. :up:

Exactly I agree and that’s how I read Stokely Carmichael

To quote you:

"His definition was something like when an organization discriminates, overtly or otherwise, in the provision of services etc,",

Which is the same as my definition; "An Organization" not some people in it.

You then go on to mention patterns and that is my point there is no pattern.
It is simply not good enough to look at a situation and place an interpretation on it as fact based on no substantial evidence or pattern and I see no pattern, and neither does anyone else because there is no pattern to see.

The reason I am adamant on this is because as a long time supporter of positive discrimination I have argued and fought for it and have the bruises and scars to show.
The facts of life are that without positive discrimination jobs go to sons, daughters nephews nieces friends and acquaintances as was witnessed in the Fire Brigade, the Police force, even the post office and don’t even mention the building trade.

In Football there is no place to hide and the stakes are too high for this situation to survive and true enough it hasn’t.