Morgan Schneiderlin

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From that, I can only assume he's referring to Sandro in 2012/13 before his injury, which also makes since given he he had prefaced with discussing RvP returning to his best.
Yes, @spurs9 did say compare with Sandro's stats last season, but I couldn't find them so just used this season's. Not all his absences this season were injured induced.
 

spurs9

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Where are you getting your stats from S9 ?

According to whoscored.com this season Sandro averages 1.4 tackles a game, Scneiderlin 3.2. Sandro averages 1.8 interceptions, Scneiderlin 2.1. Sandro averages 0.4 key passes, Schneiderlin 0.9. This season Schneiderlin is their most productive passer (averaging 58 a game) and also has their highest completion rate of 89%. Sandro averages 27 and 84%.

Pretty big superiority in pure numbers.
I was using his 2012/13 stats (before he suffered his injury). I was using Squawka as my source and comparing per 90 mins..
 

spurs9

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From that, I can only assume he's referring to Sandro in 2012/13 before his injury, which also makes since given he he had prefaced with discussing RvP returning to his best.
Yes, bang on. I should have been clearer in my initial post.
 

Dazza86

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I don't blame you for feeling as if Bentaleb might question, but I very much hope he'd be kept both if Sandro stays or if we get a replacement. As we saw from last season, even with Sherwood's non-usage of a distinctive CDM and early exits from both domestic cups, we still came very much up against the line in terms of fitness at the position. I think with having two senior CDM's, and a youth player available who's been blooded that's also capable of performing in another position that he's actually better at in the No 8 slot, we leave ourselves very well protected against the long four-front season while also keeping everyone happy. Bentaleb will see time if Dembele is sold, as he's better alongside the CDM IMO rather than being the CDM, and Holtby would also share time with Eriksen.
Yep, can certainly see Holtby being Eriksen's backup - more options there to play cute chips over the top and less pressure if he does lose the ball. Definitely not a DLP for me though.

If we do start the season with 4 essentially first XI CM's and Bentaleb is the 5th, we could also end up in a situation where they actually remain fit. In that case, and possibly anyway, I'd personally like to see Bentaleb on loan to get game time. Again, something I'd review around Christmas and after seeing how injury ridden we are.

The decision to buy Schneiderlin, for me, comes down to what happens with Sandro. Can he get and remain fit? If so, I'd like to keep him. As previously noted, he's great on and off the pitch, plus we get to reduce the amount of player turn around we're likely to see this summer.

I'd focus the efforts on replacing one of Paulie or Dembele, as we certainly need a creative in there.
 

Ledleys Knee

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Yep, can certainly see Holtby being Eriksen's backup - more options there to play cute chips over the top and less pressure if he does lose the ball. Definitely not a DLP for me though.

If we do start the season with 4 essentially first XI CM's and Bentaleb is the 5th, we could also end up in a situation where they actually remain fit. In that case, and possibly anyway, I'd personally like to see Bentaleb on loan to get game time. Again, something I'd review around Christmas and after seeing how injury ridden we are.

The decision to buy Schneiderlin, for me, comes down to what happens with Sandro. Can he get and remain fit? If so, I'd like to keep him. As previously noted, he's great on and off the pitch, plus we get to reduce the amount of player turn around we're likely to see this summer.

I'd focus the efforts on replacing one of Paulie or Dembele, as we certainly need a creative in there.
Schneiderlin is more creative than Dembele. Would be an ideal upgrade on him.

I'm not sure Scheiderlin could even do the Sandro role, he's more the recycler than the destroyer.
 

SpurSince57

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I remember when Arsenal fans were calling for an injury prone Van Persie to be sold after he had a slow recovery from an serious injury. He was struggling to get game time and when he did he only scored something like 2 goals in 13 games. Once he got his fitness and form back he scored something like 18 goals in 17 games.

If you compare Sandro's stats last season to Schneiderlin either this season or last season, Sandro made more interceptions, made more assists, made more key passes, created more chances than Schneiderlin did in either season. Sandro had a higher pass completion rate than Schneiderlin last season (but not this season) despite having a higher ave pass length and a higher % of passes going forward rather than backwards (to Schneiderlin in both seasons).

Sandro is also a big personality off the pitch. Modric recently wrote on either his or Gomes instagram post that he misses them both and hopes they can catch up in Brazil.

I will be gutted if we get rid of Sandro to replace him with Schneiderlin.
But we're talking about an 84%-87% spread for both of them, aren't we? As for the assists, well, Sandro has two in three seasons to Schneiderlin's zero in two, but for DMs goals, chances created ('key pass' in OPTA parlance) and assists are bonuses; neither shines in this respect, but would you really expect them to? Sandro, pro rata, makes more interceptions than Schneiderlin, but that's the problem with Sandro stats; any comparison is by definition pro rata. Schneiderlin has played the equivalent of 66 games in the last two seasons; in the last three, Sandro has played 44.

Another interesting stat is the points we won last season in the games in which Sandro played more than 45 minutes.
 

DaSpurs

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Yep, can certainly see Holtby being Eriksen's backup - more options there to play cute chips over the top and less pressure if he does lose the ball. Definitely not a DLP for me though.

If we do start the season with 4 essentially first XI CM's and Bentaleb is the 5th, we could also end up in a situation where they actually remain fit. In that case, and possibly anyway, I'd personally like to see Bentaleb on loan to get game time. Again, something I'd review around Christmas and after seeing how injury ridden we are.

The decision to buy Schneiderlin, for me, comes down to what happens with Sandro. Can he get and remain fit? If so, I'd like to keep him. As previously noted, he's great on and off the pitch, plus we get to reduce the amount of player turn around we're likely to see this summer.

I'd focus the efforts on replacing one of Paulie or Dembele, as we certainly need a creative in there.
I like the idea of sending Bentaleb out on loan until Christmas under such a scenario, but given the choice between a full season loan and remaining at the club to play with the academy team with being available to the first team, I'd take the latter any day. I don't feel confident with the options after that four assuming Bentaleb and Carroll go out on loan, and I maintain that I think everyone could be kept happy under such a scheme. Bentaleb is still not in a position to which he could push for a move out anyway IMO despite his run this past winter, and I don't think the club would sell at any price he may be worth given his potential.

I do think Holtby could be a valuable DLP though if he can learn to develop the long ball tenet to his game. He's quite good at moving forward from deep and positioning himself such that he can make himself available while still disperse from an attacking position to dangerous areas. But I very much like the idea of him splitting time at both DLP and CAM. By my own preference though, not what I think would happen, I'd like to see us explore the option of Banega for that slot. However, I think given what we already have, that it won't happen.

And I agree, Schneiderlin would only be pursued were Sandro to be the one who departs.
 
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DaSpurs

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Schneiderlin is more creative than Dembele. Would be an ideal upgrade on him.

I'm not sure Scheiderlin could even do the Sandro role, he's more the recycler than the destroyer.
Schneiderlin may not appear as much a "destroyer" as Sandro due to his mobility and drives forward, but his rate of interceptions and tackles per game suggests he would do just fine as the CDM. Conversely, he does not have the numbers suggestive of a DLP. He's excellent at maintaining possession, which pertaining to his transitional play going forward, he more often that not makes the pass before he can get to a position such that he can make an incisive pass or movement.
 

spurs9

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Yes, @spurs9 did say compare with Sandro's stats last season, but I couldn't find them so just used this season's. Not all his absences this season were injured induced.
Here are the defensive stats for Sandro V Morgan (I have also included Holtby's Tottenham stats)
But we're talking about an 84%-87% spread for both of them, aren't we? As for the assists, well, Sandro has two in three seasons to Schneiderlin's zero in two, but for DMs goals, chances created ('key pass' in OPTA parlance) and assists are bonuses; neither shines in this respect, but would you really expect them to? Sandro, pro rata, makes more interceptions than Schneiderlin, but that's the problem with Sandro stats; any comparison is by definition pro rata. Schneiderlin has played the equivalent of 66 games in the last two seasons; in the last three, Sandro has played 44.

Another interesting stat is the points we won last season in the games in which Sandro played more than 45 minutes.
The reason why I used Sandro's stats for last season and not this season, is because for a variety of reasons (Injuries, fitness & clueless manager) Sandro had a poor season and I was comparing the possible situation when RVP had a tough time after injuries and Arsenal fans forgot how good he could be when fit and wanted to sell him.

My point about the chances created, assists & key passes was aimed at the people call Schneiderlin "more creative" than Sandro.

In regards to number of games played, that is a worry, but injuries are something our club has been poor for with many players and it isn't because we keep picking injury prone players, it's the coaching, which hopefully Poch will fix and if he doesn't, then Schneiderlin may well suffer the same problems should we sign him.

Also, it's is easier to complete more successful passes when you play against a team that is open and trying to attack you than it is to play against a team that parks the bus with 2 banks of 4 closing you down constantly.
 

spurs9

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Schneiderlin is more creative than Dembele. Would be an ideal upgrade on him.

I'm not sure Scheiderlin could even do the Sandro role, he's more the recycler than the destroyer.
Is he? I have seen nothing to suggest that and Dembele creates more chances and makes more key passes than Schneiderlin does.
 

SpurSince57

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Here are the defensive stats for Sandro V Morgan (I have also included Holtby's Tottenham stats)

The reason why I used Sandro's stats for last season and not this season, is because for a variety of reasons (Injuries, fitness & clueless manager) Sandro had a poor season and I was comparing the possible situation when RVP had a tough time after injuries and Arsenal fans forgot how good he could be when fit and wanted to sell him.

My point about the chances created, assists & key passes was aimed at the people call Schneiderlin "more creative" than Sandro.

In regards to number of games played, that is a worry, but injuries are something our club has been poor for with many players and it isn't because we keep picking injury prone players, it's the coaching, which hopefully Poch will fix and if he doesn't, then Schneiderlin may well suffer the same problems should we sign him.

Also, it's is easier to complete more successful passes when you play against a team that is open and trying to attack you than it is to play against a team that parks the bus with 2 banks of 4 closing you down constantly.
But our 'clueless' manager managed to average just under two points a game and win almost 60% of his games—and that with a lot of injuries, new players struggling with the EPL and an accident-prone defence. Label him an idiot, you have to answer some rather awkward questions about his predecessors, don't you?

Sandro's ball-winning stats last season were a major improvement on the previous two.
 

spurs9

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SpurSince57 said:
Another interesting stat is the points we won last season in the games in which Sandro played more than 45 minutes.
Don't leave us hanging...
Rule One: Don't ask a question to which you don't know the answer.
Doesn't look good without context:

Won - 4
Drew - 2
Lost - 3

However the 3 losses were to Man City, Chelsea & Arsenal and I don't believe Schneiderlin, or any other player, in place of Sandro would have made a difference to the outcomes of those games.

The 2 draws were to Everton (we kept a clean sheet) and Man Utd (Sandro scored).
 

spurs9

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But our 'clueless' manager managed to average just under two points a game and win almost 60% of his games—and that with a lot of injuries, new players struggling with the EPL and an accident-prone defence. Label him an idiot, you have to answer some rather awkward questions about his predecessors, don't you?

Sandro's ball-winning stats last season were a major improvement on the previous two.
I meant clueless in the sense of defense & CM's. He did well at freeing the attack, however depended greatly on the talents of Ade & Eriksen.

Sandro's ball winning stats were not a major improvement on the year before. Interceptions and clearances increased a lot but ball winning decreased slightly.


Apps Tackle Int Fouls Clearances Was Dribbled Blk Shots
22 3.3 3.6 1.5 3.5 0.5 0.4
17(6) 3.7 1.9 1.2 1 0.3 0.2
11(8) 3.7 2.2 1.4 1.7 0.6 0.2
 
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By the way, L'Equipe are saying Wenger is interested in Schneiderlin. I'm not surprised really, he's exactly what they need. The say Wenger is interested in Grenier too, and he's sure to be cheaper IMO so might appeal to the economist in Wenger.
 

Chris12

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Thread starter #119
By the way, L'Equipe are saying Wenger is interested in Schneiderlin. I'm not surprised really, he's exactly what they need. The say Wenger is interested in Grenier too, and he's sure to be cheaper IMO so might appeal to the economist in Wenger.
Isn't Grenier more attack-minded though?
 

DaSpurs

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By the way, L'Equipe are saying Wenger is interested in Schneiderlin. I'm not surprised really, he's exactly what they need. The say Wenger is interested in Grenier too, and he's sure to be cheaper IMO so might appeal to the economist in Wenger.
Arsenal is believed to have pursued Schneiderlin before as a youth, so I wouldn't be surprised if this were true. I agree with you unfortunately, I think he'd be excellent for them in front of their back line.
 
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