perfect formula

[simyid]

It is so clear to me that Hudd and modric in the centre is the perfect formula in the centre with bale on the left. i mean the fact is when hudd and modric have started together in the centre WE HAVE NEVER LOST. Proof? GAmes we have played Hudd and modric in the centre:

Tottenham 2-1 arsenal

Tottenham 2 - 1 chelsea

Tottenham 1 - 0 Bolton

Man city 0 - 1 tottenham

tottenham 0 - 0 man city

games since april were we have started palacios in the centre:

Portsmouth 2 - 0 tottenham

Man utd 3 - 1 tottenham

burnley 4 - 2 tottenham

Stoke 1 - 2 tottenham

Young boys 3 - 2 tottenham

tottenham 4 - 0 young boys

tottenham 0 - 1 wigan

west brom 1 - 1 tottenham

clearly there is a pattern here we must play Hudd and modric in the centre as clearly it works better for us. i must stress this isn't a dig at palacios just simply stating facts.

 

[mil1lion]

Palacios is a spoiler and he's great at it. He is perfect for scrappy games where we can't string passes together. In a similar way to how we resort to balls into the box with Crouch up top if we're struggling to play through teams. It's good to have those options for certain games so we can try and win ugly.

Ball retention is so crucial at the top level though, and with Modric and Huddlestone in the middle we're very good at it. From what highlights i've seen of Sandro, he looks to be good at keeping his team in possession too by keeping it simple. So hopefully he'll prove to be good with either Modric or Huddlestone aswell.

Bring Palacios on when we need to scrap for a win, or start him against teams like Stoke who kick lumps out of us.

 

[BorisTM]

It is so clear to me that Hudd and modric in the centre is the perfect formula in the centre with bale on the left. i mean the fact is when hudd and modric have started together in the centre WE HAVE NEVER LOST. Proof? GAmes we have played Hudd and modric in the centre:

Tottenham 2-1 arsenal

Tottenham 2 - 1 chelsea

Tottenham 1 - 0 Bolton

Man city 0 - 1 tottenham

tottenham 0 - 0 man city

games since april were we have started palacios in the centre:

Portsmouth 2 - 0 tottenham

Man utd 3 - 1 tottenham

burnley 4 - 2 tottenham

Stoke 1 - 2 tottenham

Young boys 3 - 2 tottenham

tottenham 4 - 0 young boys

tottenham 0 - 1 wigan

west brom 1 - 1 tottenham

clearly there is a pattern here we must play Hudd and modric in the centre as clearly it works better for us. i must stress this isn't a dig at palacios just simply stating facts.

I dont think he should be played as a holding midfielder even that he is good at it.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Just to pick you up on that, we did start with Hudd and Modric vs. Burnley last year

But yeah, it's very clear to me that we struggle as a side with Palacios in the middle - not sure what the hell's happened to him

 

[AngerManagement]

I think it's more a problem with our team than him per say. As a unit we have changed and play better from an attacking point of view with a different set of midfielders.

Palacios still breaks up play and still has decent passing stats (not that stats can show the type of passes made and missed and their importance at a given time) but there has to be something in it.

However, we shouldn't turn this into a Wilson witch hunt. After all it wasn't so long ago that a certain Welsh wizard had a similar set of stats going for him (remember when we had never won a game in which Bale had started?) yet now he is arguably our MVP (in an american type of way)

I do think we should atleast try different things because it seems we as a unit are not playing at our best when we dedicate one of our CM pairing to the role of breaking up play. Wheter this be replacing him for someone who is less able to break up play but efficent enough to get by whilst being alot more creative and better at supporting our attack or we change formation to accomadate wilson with an extra midfielder (ie just playing on up top) I don't know....but I do agree that right now we are struggling with him in the starting line up.

 

[double0]

The question can equally be levelled to our creative players...Bale apart, well since Bale's form our main threat has come through him goals and assists, the rest of our creative players have partically become redundant, this is a area for Arry to look at maybe.

 

[AngerManagement]

I think Mil1lion hit the nail on the head in the other Palacios thread.

Since we begun playing 2 out and out wingers we no longer have Modric on the left (or Niko) who double up as a wide man and an extra central midfielder taking the pressure off Wilson to need to do anything other than break up play and maintain pocession in the centre of the park.

It's horses for course and we need to find the best fit for our team as a whole, wheter we do this with Wilson and change things around to make things work with him in the side or we play to our strengths with Bale and Lennon on the wings (and select other personnel that make that formation work)

 

[StartingPrice]

I think Mil1lion hit the nail on the head in the other Palacios thread.

Since we begun playing 2 out and out wingers we no longer have Modric on the left (or Niko) who double up as a wide man and an extra central midfielder taking the pressure off Wilson to need to do anything other than break up play and maintain pocession in the centre of the park.

It's horses for course and we need to find the best fit for our team as a whole, wheter we do this with Wilson and change things around to make things work with him in the side or we play to our strengths with Bale and Lennon on the wings (and select other personnel that make that formation work)

Which is funny because we played with Modric on the left on Saturday...and until he was forced off we looked the FCUKing dog's bollocks (and that was with VDV still being 1/2 fit and not really knowing the players around him).

I just don't getthis Modric went off and so 'that' formula was in retrospect crap, even though it wasn't because it suits other agendas to believe so.

Simple question, you all: did we or did we not look bloody good util Modric was forced off?

If you answer yes, then why do you need to be so obsessed with changing that,and if no, please, justify it properly:shrug:

 

[mil1lion]

Did we not look good with Modric and Huddlestone in the games mentioned in that OP? Have we not looked good with Bale on the wing? Has Bale not been the best winger in the country over the past several months?

I don't doubt that these other systems work at times (Bale at fullback, Modric on the left etc). We have to change the team from time to time. But our very best quartet in games where we can play our best football is that midfield of Bale, Modric, Huddlestone and Lennon. I just felt that West Brom was one of those games.

I have no doubt we'll have played just as well on Saturday with that midfield. There is no reason to think otherwise.

 

[AngerManagement]

Which is funny because we played with Modric on the left on Saturday...and until he was forced off we looked the FCUKing dog's bollocks (and that was with VDV still being 1/2 fit and not really knowing the players around him).

I just don't getthis Modric went off and so 'that' formula was in retrospect crap, even though it wasn't because it suits other agendas to believe so.

Simple question, you all: did we or did we not look bloody good util Modric was forced off?

If you answer yes, then why do you need to be so obsessed with changing that,and if no, please, justify it properly:shrug:

I can't really comment on the WBA game as I have not even seen the highlights.

What I will say is they are the type of team that we frequently struggle to look good against (one of them games where Palacios is most likely required) and we have a poorish record there.

I was actually not expecting anything better than a draw and it's only the fact we went a goal up that makes me disappointed with the result.

these formations are only as good as the componets within them, so maybe VDV is the missing piece that will enable us to play that way (how we started against WBA) effectively in future games (after all he will get match fit, accustomed to our game and gel with the other players in the coming weeks)

With Defoe out for a period of time we are being forced into changes anyway, maybe VDV being more of an attacking midfielder will fill the space in the advanced CM area that Wilson does not when applying his break down destroy tactics from deep and VDV's presence will prove to be the extra CM cover (when he drops deep) that accomadates Palacios once more and makes our team tick.

As I said I was unable to watch the game for circumstances beyond my control and my sky plus did not tape the highlights for me so my knowledge of the goings on in this match are zero.

 

[whitelightwhiteheat]

I think suggesting we were -bloody good- against WBA might be stretching it. We were looking ok, much better than when Modric went off that's for sure.

But as has been pointed out, we've looked bloody good with Bale on the left midfield, Modders and Hudd in the middle of the park on multiple occasions, this also is a fact.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I think suggesting we were -bloody good- against WBA might be stretching it. We were looking ok, much better than when Modric went off that's for sure.

But as has been pointed out, we've looked bloody good with Bale on the left midfield, Modders and Hudd in the middle of the park on multiple occasions, this also is a fact.

Indeed

Agreed

Speed recovery for Defoe also need(ed)

 

[StartingPrice]

Did we not look good with Modric and Huddlestone in the games mentioned in that OP? Have we not looked good with Bale on the wing? Has Bale not been the best winger in the country over the past several months?

I don't doubt that these other systems work at times (Bale at fullback, Modric on the left etc). We have to change the team from time to time. But our very best quartet in games where we can play our best football is that midfield of Bale, Modric, Huddlestone and Lennon. I just felt that West Brom was one of those games.

I have no doubt we'll have played just as well on Saturday with that midfield. There is no reason to think otherwise.

As I have said a mil1lion times, I always, ALWAYS acknowledge when Bale plays superbly on the wing (which, inspite of the airbrushing from history some fans give, is not every game). I have stated over and over and over again that I think Bale will make a very, very good winger, it is just that I believe he will make a World Class full-back. I have stated over and over and over again that if the manager (y'know, the guy whose job is on the line if he gets it wrong), decides he should be permanently converted into a winger I will be fine with that - why shouldn't I be, he will make a very, very good winger, and that will benefit the team I support (although I will still believe it doesn't quite maximise the lad's paricular skill-set). I have stated over and over and over again that I have actually adjusted my opinion as I feel that Bale on the wing against certain teams, with BAE behind, is a better option, just not in every game, where I feel Bale/Modric is the better option.

So why do I still get asked the same questions over and over and over again whenever I ahve the naked temerity to defend my personal belief (shared by many intelligent people, and lifelong football people, where the two are different), who happen to feel that his particular skill-set is best maximised playing from full-back?

Sorry, Mill, I usually agree with you, but in this I really do feel that you are putting your opinion that he would be best employed as a winger prior to your analysis of individual games.

Do I do the same? Well, like I said, I have actually moderate my opiion, which, I believe, demonstrates that I do actually listen to the counter-arguments. I have stopped to consider that maybe if I make the case that if I make the argument that Bale gets forward to contribute to the attack, when playing full-back, I have to consider the counter-argument that he gets back to help with the defence when playing with BAE - which is why I believe that against better teams this is a better option, and adjusted my opinion accordingly. But I have also shown that, with reference to specific periods of play, that when he plays on the wing he always gets back to aid BAE, as he has a natural tendency to do so. So, for a lot of the 'winger' play the 'Bale the winger' brigade are raving about he is actually running forward from a LB position. Against Stoke, for instance, he would have taken the corners whether he was playing as a winger or a FB. For his assist he was actually just over the half-way line and coming forward from a FB position, only for the goal (which was sublime) would I concede that he maybe wouldn't have been in that position (but only maybe) if he had been playing LB. And I always insist that we look at the contribution of the player who takes his place - hopefully Modric, on left-midfield, and weigh up their combined offensive threat, compared to that of BAE/Bale, and I feel that it is greater from Bale/Modric, in the majority of games against teams we should really expect to beat, and particularly against defensive teams where Bale would be nullified as a winger (Fulham, away, last season, Wigan, this), but Modric pulls them about cutting in and creating space for Bale to run into.

All that I ask is that you analyse clearly - in your case, Mill, I know that you can, and stop painting it as though it is a cut-and-dried case, that is so obvious even an idiot could see it, becauseif it is 'so' obvious why does anyone disagree?

I think suggesting we were -bloody good- against WBA might be stretching it. We were looking ok, much better than when Modric went off that's for sure.

But as has been pointed out, we've looked bloody good with Bale on the left midfield, Modders and Hudd in the middle of the park on multiple occasions, this also is a fact.

Sorry, not quite specific enough with my wording.
What I meant to say was, and bearing in mind I am referring to the time Modders was on the pitch:
We looked pretty damned good, even though VDV was obviously not match fit, and doesn't really know the players around him...to the extent where I feel it is pretty apparent that Bale/Modric on the left, with VDV in the midlie IS GOING TO BE BLOODY GOOD.

Please see my post above, I have never said he didn't look good on the wing, when he has been. it isn't me who has a selective analysis and recall.

 

[mil1lion]

As I have said a mil1lion times, I always, ALWAYS acknowledge when Bale plays superbly on the wing (which, inspite of the airbrushing from history some fans give, is not every game). I have stated over and over and over again that I think Bale will make a very, very good winger, it is just that I believe he will make a World Class full-back. I have stated over and over and over again that if the manager (y'know, the guy whose job is on the line if he gets it wrong), decides he should be permanently converted into a winger I will be fine with that - why shouldn't I be, he will make a very, very good winger, and that will benefit the team I support (although I will still believe it doesn't quite maximise the lad's paricular skill-set). I have stated over and over and over again that I have actually adjusted my opinion as I feel that Bale on the wing against certain teams, with BAE behind, is a better option, just not in every game, where I feel Bale/Modric is the better option.

So why do I still get asked the same questions over and over and over again whenever I ahve the naked temerity to defend my personal belief (shared by many intelligent people, and lifelong football people, where the two are different), who happen to feel that his particular skill-set is best maximised playing from full-back?

Sorry, Mill, I usually agree with you, but in this I really do feel that you are putting your opinion that he would be best employed as a winger prior to your analysis of individual games.

Do I do the same? Well, like I said, I have actually moderate my opiion, which, I believe, demonstrates that I do actually listen to the counter-arguments. I have stopped to consider that maybe if I make the case that if I make the argument that Bale gets forward to contribute to the attack, when playing full-back, I have to consider the counter-argument that he gets back to help with the defence when playing with BAE - which is why I believe that against better teams this is a better option, and adjusted my opinion accordingly. But I have also shown that, with reference to specific periods of play, that when he plays on the wing he always gets back to aid BAE, as he has a natural tendency to do so. So, for a lot of the 'winger' play the 'Bale the winger' brigade are raving about he is actually running forward from a LB position. Against Stoke, for instance, he would have taken the corners whether he was playing as a winger or a FB. For his assist he was actually just over the half-way line and coming forward from a FB position, only for the goal (which was sublime) would I concede that he maybe wouldn't have been in that position (but only maybe) if he had been playing LB. And I always insist that we look at the contribution of the player who takes his place - hopefully Modric, on left-midfield, and weigh up their combined offensive threat, compared to that of BAE/Bale, and I feel that it is greater from Bale/Modric, in the majority of games against teams we should really expect to beat, and particularly against defensive teams where Bale would be nullified as a winger (Fulham, away, last season, Wigan, this), but Modric pulls them about cutting in and creating space for Bale to run into.

All that I ask is that you analyse clearly - in your case, Mill, I know that you can, and stop painting it as though it is a cut-and-dried case, that is so obvious even an idiot could see it, becauseif it is 'so' obvious why does anyone disagree?

I never have put it that way though. I have never said that Bale at left back and Modric on the left is a bad combination. I have always maintained that I feel we play better with Bale as a left winger. I also maintain that Bale has been our best player as a winger. So while he is in such great form we should keep him in his current position of left wing.

I firmly believe that playing fullback restricts his attacking play (how can it not?) and that he is so good in attack that there is no need to do that. While he had some great moments on Saturday he also had to defend more than he should have. He would've still done those things as a winger but had the freedom to do more than just 2 attempts and several crosses.

I do think he can become a great fullback one day. But that's the problem, one day. He is simply nowhere near as good defending as he is attacking (he didn't defend well at the far post for the West Brom goal or the Wigan goal either) yet. So until he matures as a player and learns how to take on that extra responsibility of a fullback, he should continue at left wing.

Maybe you don't realise just how much responsibility it takes to be an attacking fullback? At the end of the day he is still only 21, and if you can name me an attacking fullback of a similar age who can play that role effectively at the highest level, please do. It just doesn't happen at this level. Not at that age, and the fact that he has proven to be at fault for goals when playing fullback is proof of that.

I also agree with the OP that Modric in the middle with Huddlestone is the best formula we have. I'm not saying Modric isn't great on the left, just that he isn't as great as a winger as Bale is. Yet he also does a great job in the middle with Huddlestone, so it just makes sense to stick with the proven formula.

 

[Kendall]

I thought we started with Hudd and Modric at Burnley, with Palacios coming on after an hour when it was 2-2.

That game didn't really count mind.

 

[AngerManagement]

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/football/premier-league/video/

For those of you who like me missed the highlights

 

[DiscoD1882]

It is so clear to me that Hudd and modric in the centre is the perfect formula in the centre with bale on the left. i mean the fact is when hudd and modric have started together in the centre WE HAVE NEVER LOST. Proof? GAmes we have played Hudd and modric in the centre:

Tottenham 2-1 arsenal

Tottenham 2 - 1 chelsea

Tottenham 1 - 0 Bolton

Man city 0 - 1 tottenham

tottenham 0 - 0 man city

games since april were we have started palacios in the centre:

Portsmouth 2 - 0 tottenham

Man utd 3 - 1 tottenham

burnley 4 - 2 tottenham

Stoke 1 - 2 tottenham

Young boys 3 - 2 tottenham

tottenham 4 - 0 young boys

tottenham 0 - 1 wigan

west brom 1 - 1 tottenham

clearly there is a pattern here we must play Hudd and modric in the centre as clearly it works better for us. i must stress this isn't a dig at palacios just simply stating facts.

Whilst this information is good. It hardly captures the whole season. Palacios has been very good for us and it want long ago that most people on here were loving him. for whatever reason his form has slipped but he is far from the main reason we are losing games. Stats are easily manipulated. I think if you are going todo this you need to go back to the beggining of last season. and do a win loss draw ratio with palacios in the team. I think youll find the stats come up very differently.

 

[StartingPrice]

1) I never have put it that way though. I have never said that Bale at left back and Modric on the left is a bad combination. I have always maintained that I feel we play better with Bale as a left winger. I also maintain that Bale has been our best player as a winger. So while he is in such great form we should keep him in his current position of left wing.

2) I firmly believe that playing fullback restricts his attacking play (how can it not?) and that he is so good in attack that there is no need to do that. While he had some great moments on Saturday he also had to defend more than he should have. He would've still done those things as a winger but had the freedom to do more than just 2 attempts and several crosses.

3) I do think he can become a great fullback one day. But that's the problem, one day. He is simply nowhere near as good defending as he is attacking (he didn't defend well at the far post for the West Brom goal or the Wigan goal either) yet. So until he matures as a player and learns how to take on that extra responsibility of a fullback, he should continue at left wing.

4) Maybe you don't realise just how much responsibility it takes to be an attacking fullback? At the end of the day he is still only 21, and if you can name me an attacking fullback of a similar age who can play that role effectively at the highest level, please do. It just doesn't happen at this level. Not at that age, and 5) the fact that he has proven to be at fault for goals when playing fullback is proof of that.

6) I also agree with the OP that Modric in the middle with Huddlestone is the best formula we have. 7) I'm not saying Modric isn't great on the left, just that he isn't as great as a winger as Bale is. Yet he also does a great job in the middle with Huddlestone, so 8) it just makes sense to stick with the proven formula.

1) I know you didn't (back to 'Get Carter'mg, I was speaking generically. Yo did make a post on Saturday, which I highlighted where your wording implied that Bale offers far less offensive play than he in fact, quanitifiably, does;

2) I don't, and as I expainedin the post you are quoting, I believe that you have to assess the offensive combination of BAE/Bale, viz. Bale/Modric, and I believe, clearly, that the latter offers by far the greater threat - and we need less defensively against weaker teams, so it is only logical to go for that option on those occasions;

3) I understand this argument. I'm just not sure it is all that. I suspect a lot of the argument behind this would very quickly dissolve back into 'he's been great on the wing' (with most) the second 'Arry moved him back, or hopes he would 'see the light' and leave him there. He may make a few mistakes now, but all players at all times do, and he has to learn the role - you only do that by playing;

4) Why should you say that? Of course I understand it, it is one of the arguments I give every single time one of the 'Bale the winger' brigade pick his performances at LB to pieces on the basis on one error - and like I said, all players make errors, even full-backs who are far less offensive than Bale and are at the top of their game;

5) Only by picking him to death on some of them. I don't believe he was at fault for teh WBA goal at all. Against Wigan, there was plenty of finger pointing, but another perspective would be that the defensive midfielders/centre halves knwo that when playing that system they have a responsibility to cover, yet no-one went across to do so. Ledley is a fantastic player, but wasn't he a bit slow to go across on that occasion:shrug:;

6) I disagree with the OP on this point. I think his creativity is more effective when he pays left-midfield as he is usually further up the field, and when he plays in the centre with THudd (whose a fantastic ball player, but not the most mobile), he frequently comes out wide to link up with Bale which leaves a hole in the middle. I also think it will be less effective against more combative teams. And it allows us to fit VDV in the side far better than playing him in the middle with THudd and Bale on the left - that has too many echoes of Ossie's Famous Five;

7) No, I kow, and I would reverse it totally and say I am not saying that Modric is crap in the middle, just that he offers more threat (and, conveniently allows a solid base which can accomodate VDV) when he plays on the left, and he isn't as conbative in the middle as Wilson (usually);

8) But Bale/Modric on the left, with Palacios/THudd is also a proven formula...and with the added bonus that it is easier to accomodate VDV in that formation. Modric and VDV MUST both play when fit, and this is the best way to do it.

 

[simyid]

Whilst this information is good. It hardly captures the whole season. Palacios has been very good for us and it want long ago that most people on here were loving him. for whatever reason his form has slipped but he is far from the main reason we are losing games. Stats are easily manipulated. I think if you are going todo this you need to go back to the beggining of last season. and do a win loss draw ratio with palacios in the team. I think youll find the stats come up very differently.

i think i didn't get my point across correctley i am not blaming palacios for us losing games im just saying whenever we have played modric and thudd in the centre we are yet to lose. and to those who say that in a more combative game palacios is better were is the evidence? modric and hudd have played against 3 cm's 3/4 times now and have come out on top on every occasion so i can't see why we should change it.

 

[DiscoD1882]

i think i didn't get my point across correctley i am not blaming palacios for us losing games im just saying whenever we have played modric and thudd in the centre we are yet to lose. and to those who say that in a more combative game palacios is better were is the evidence? modric and hudd have played against 3 cm's 3/4 times now and have come out on top on every occasion so i can't see why we should change it.

Im not saying you were bad mouthing palacios. What I was saying was prove to me that the Modric\Huddlestone partnership worked better than Hudd\Palacios.

You havent proved that with the games you have picked. As there were probably another 30 games that Huddlestone\palcios were in midfield. And we won games!