Player Watch: Victor Wanyama

[sloth]

When we talk about our youth players; how many have we seen up against top class PL opposition? Say against a team of top four type players?

When Poch and the team assess whether a player is ready they get them to train with the first team squad, in that way they get to see how they perform against much better players, and importantly teams, than they face week in, week out in the youth leagues. On the basis of how they do in this environment they either get promoted to the first team squad or not.

When a player like Lesniak doesn't get promoted we can choose to believe it is because he's just been ignored because the coaches are blind to his qualities or stuck in a conservative rut, or we can choose to believe it's because the coaches assess that he's not ready having seen him up close.

If we think the former, as I did with Redknapp, we have to consider the coach's track record of promoting youth, of going with the callow over the million dollar signing.

It seems to me that last season we had the youngest squad in the PL by some margin. We probably had all ten of the ten youngest matchday 11s to play last season. We saw him unafraid to leave experience on the bench in favour of the younger guy. We saw him give players a try based on what they were doing in training rather than reputation, and so we got players like Dier and Deli Alli performing in the match-day squad. Then we can look at what he did at Southampton, how many youth players he promoted to his squad, and how they did once they got in. And also his record at Espanyol. Poch is a coach who is not afraid to give youth a go if he thinks they're up to it.

If the coach didn't have such a track record then by all means tear your hair out.

What I really don't think we should be doing however is having a dogmatic opinion of youth players playing in youth teams, based on what we've seen in the odd streamed match against other youth teams. We should surely admit the limit of the conclusions we're able to draw from such scanty evidence and decide to trust the coaches.

 

[voxy28]

Seriously, just fucking sign him... his name is fancy enuf for me.

 

[tiger666]

Seriously, just fucking sign him... his name is fancy enuf for me.

The Tim Sherwood approach eh.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I guess its easier to be 'braver' when we don't feel the weight, expectation and real life pressure of those decisions sitting here discussing it on a forum.

I get where you're coming from though but you know yourself its a massive business and its all fiercely competitive, so opting for experience over younger talents who may not be deemed ready is understandable when you consider the expectations and pressures surrounding the Club.

I have repeatedly said I understand the pressure that has been placed on managers and that the environment in which the development process can bare more fruition has to be created from the top down - from Levy in other words. I believe that the environment has slightly changed with Pochettino's appointment, statements were made about us appointing a coach that is renowned and prepared to integrate youth, but the realities of that policy must be accepted by the hierarchy and filtered through the club.

I, or no one that wants to see a little more integration are being the zealots that we are often made out to be. I don't want quotas, I don't expect any kid to be automatic first team choice. I don't expect radical, 11 men from the academy stuff. All I (and others) would like to see is a really moderate shift in attitude. Last season not one new academy player made any substantial advance in their career. Bentaleb and Pritchard's careers (two of the most promising) went backwards, as did Mason's (largely through injury to be fair to Poch).

And I don't really get the whole "playing academy kids is such a huge risk for the manager" thing either. Have any of the kids we've deemed good enough for first team chances over the last few years been any more calamitous or even just "meh" as some of the signings we have played ? Would Oduwa been any more raw or risky than NJie ? Would he or Pricthard been lazier without the ball than Chadli ? Would Pritchard been more clumsy and erratic or worse without the ball than Son as an AM ?
Would KWP have been any more of a liability defensively than Trippier or any worse creatively than Walker ?

Is a bought "squad" option always better than a kid who's been honed to work our exact system, coached daily to fit Poch's methodology and philosophy ? Even if he isn't uber talented ?

 

[longtimespur]

Congratulations BC, extreme example of how a pwopa WUM works.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

When we talk about our youth players; how many have we seen up against top class PL opposition? Say against a team of top four type players?

When Poch and the team assess whether a player is ready they get them to train with the first team squad, in that way they get to see how they perform against much better players, and importantly teams, than they face week in, week out in the youth leagues. On the basis of how they do in this environment they either get promoted to the first team squad or not.

When a player like Lesniak doesn't get promoted we can choose to believe it is because he's just been ignored because the coaches are blind to his qualities or stuck in a conservative rut, or we can choose to believe it's because the coaches assess that he's not ready having seen him up close.

If we think the former, as I did with Redknapp, we have to consider the coach's track record of promoting youth, of going with the callow over the million dollar signing.

It seems to me that last season we had the youngest squad in the PL by some margin. We probably had all ten of the ten youngest matchday 11s to play last season. We saw him unafraid to leave experience on the bench in favour of the younger guy. We saw him give players a try based on what they were doing in training rather than reputation, and so we got players like Dier and Deli Alli performing in the match-day squad. Then we can look at what he did at Southampton, how many youth players he promoted to his squad, and how they did once they got in. And also his record at Espanyol. Poch is a coach who is not afraid to give youth a go if he thinks they're up to it.

If the coach didn't have such a track record then by all means tear your hair out.

What I really don't think we should be doing however is having a dogmatic opinion of youth players playing in youth teams, based on what we've seen in the odd streamed match against other youth teams. We should surely admit the limit of the conclusions we're able to draw from such scanty evidence and decide to trust the coaches.

Heaven forbid we should form any opinion of a footballer based on watching the footballer play football.

I may be a little wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Poch hasn't actually given many debut minutes to youth spurs. With the possible exception of a 23yo Mason he's given about 22 EPL minutes to debut players with us I believe in two years. That's not so much "trusting youth" it's trusting young players that have been given an opportunity elsewhere or by others first.

I like him very much as a coach, and trusting young players, even if they aren't "ours" is still commendable, but not everything he does is right and his judgement isn't unquestionable in any/every aspect.

 

[raggy]

Heaven forbid we should form any opinion of a footballer based on watching the footballer play football.

I may be a little wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Poch hasn't actually given many debut minutes to youth spurs. With the possible exception of a 23yo Mason he's given about 22 EPL minutes to debut players with us I believe in two years. That's not so much "trusting youth" it's trusting young players that have been given an opportunity elsewhere or by others first.

I like him very much as a coach, and trusting young players, even if they aren't "ours" is still commendable, but not everything he does is right and his judgement isn't unquestionable in any/every aspect.

Restricting it to Premier League minutes is a bit of a cop out tbh. The players like Onomah he has given a chance to in other competitions haven't shown enough to prove they are ready for more Premier League minutes. Onomah has over 500 first team minutes without really producing anything, other than looking pretty tidy on the ball.

If Onomah would have provided impact with his chances he would have definitely been given more minutes in the Premier League.

Plus I don't really think the decision on these players is coming down to Pochettino alone, everything we have heard from within the club suggests that McDermott and Poch are very much on the same page.

 

[stevenurse]

Heaven forbid we should form any opinion of a footballer based on watching the footballer play football.

I may be a little wrong on this, but I'm pretty sure Poch hasn't actually given many debut minutes to youth spurs. With the possible exception of a 23yo Mason he's given about 22 EPL minutes to debut players with us I believe in two years. That's not so much "trusting youth" it's trusting young players that have been given an opportunity elsewhere or by others first.

I like him very much as a coach, and trusting young players, even if they aren't "ours" is still commendable, but not everything he does is right and his judgement isn't unquestionable in any/every aspect.

I've got no problem with you having an opinion at all. I'm just saying that unfortunately, and I think even you know it, that the idea of playing an untested youngster (or having him as "back up") would be ludicrous instead of a player like wanyama. Alli has shown if you're good enough, you're old enough and if any of the youth products were as good, or thought to be ready this season then they'd play I'm sure.

The stubborn viewpoint about playing youth is to be commended but ultimately pointless as you don't get points or silverware for playing youth players. I'd rather be winning trophies than being given a pat on the back for playing an u19 player against PSG or equivalent and getting smashed. Wanyama is a significant upgrade on Mason, Carroll or Bentaleb for our midfield and is great business.

 

[Ledley's Right Foot]

I have repeatedly said I understand the pressure that has been placed on managers and that the environment in which the development process can bare more fruition has to be created from the top down - from Levy in other words. I believe that the environment has slightly changed with Pochettino's appointment, statements were made about us appointing a coach that is renowned and prepared to integrate youth, but the realities of that policy must be accepted by the hierarchy and filtered through the club.

I, or no one that wants to see a little more integration are being the zealots that we are often made out to be. I don't want quotas, I don't expect any kid to be automatic first team choice. I don't expect radical, 11 men from the academy stuff. All I (and others) would like to see is a really moderate shift in attitude. Last season not one new academy player made any substantial advance in their career. Bentaleb and Pritchard's careers (two of the most promising) went backwards, as did Mason's (largely through injury to be fair to Poch).

And I don't really get the whole "playing academy kids is such a huge risk for the manager" thing either. Have any of the kids we've deemed good enough for first team chances over the last few years been any more calamitous or even just "meh" as some of the signings we have played ? Would Oduwa been any more raw or risky than NJie ? Would he or Pricthard been lazier without the ball than Chadli ? Would Pritchard been more clumsy and erratic or worse without the ball than Son as an AM ?
Would KWP have been any more of a liability defensively than Trippier or any worse creatively than Walker ?

Is a bought "squad" option always better than a kid who's been honed to work our exact system, coached daily to fit Poch's methodology and philosophy ? Even if he isn't uber talented ?

I have a lot of time for what you've been arguing for here, what's not to like about a first team of home grown players. That said, and here's the rub, whether or not Poch is given time to get through the inconsistent results youth players bring, has very little to do with Levy.

Ultimately, this is an entertainment industry and it is our fans that determine how much time the manager has. If we lose hope, then ticket sales drop and that is fatal for us. Playing the "youth" when our fans expect champions league as a minimum is not always possible and Levy has little choice if results go bad.....I remember the twitches in our fans after the first five games of last season...I also can rememver the strife with playing Carroll/mason at the end of it, they are good but not ready. Bringing it back to this thread, Wanyama is ready and it's wise to go for him.

That's show business ;-)

 

[am_yisrael_chai]

@am_yisrael_chai

In hindsight, maybe what I said was a little harsh for various reasons, probably influenced heavily by our constant pursuit of Pochettino's ex-Southampton players (some of whom I like to be fair, Shaw, Schniederlin, Lallana, some of whom less so Lovren, Wanyama).

To be fair to me, I didn't say "posh is shit at choosing players" I said I think I trust his coaching and improving more than his recruitment choices. That is a compliment (even though it was a sideways one) as I have been very complimentary about his coaching at least.

But I am not, in general, a fan of the "one man" or "manager" chooses the players system, and have been consistent in this for as long as I can remember. I prefer the acquisition by committee system, where the manager has input and in many cases final say (first team acquisitions for example) but not the whole say.

I endorse the system we are operating now completely, just don't necessarily approve all the decisions that committee is making, but I don't think they have been disastrous in most cases either.

I'm not sure what prompted this bout of introspection and pseudo humility but it's long overdue. If you can just carry it on then SC will be all the better for it.

As to the substance of what you say above I don't know how you conclude just because we are signing a Sputhampton player that Poch is in charge of transfers, it seems pretty clear that primary responsibility for recruitment lies with Mitchell but Poch and others are involved. Unlike Baldini, Mitchell seems to be able to deliver Poch players who both fit his playing system and the personal characteristics he requires. I'd say the system is working just fine, far better than any other DoF / coach combo we've had, albeit we've only had 1 window to see it in operation.

 

[2DogsBarker]

Nurse! Nurse! Bus Conductor hasn't taken his medication again and is feverishly bashing away at his keyboard!
In other, thread related news, surely bringing Wanyama onboard for £11m & exiting Mason for £6-8m is brilliant business & a massive boost to the squad? Or am I overly simplifying the situation?

 

[Metalhead]

When we talk about our youth players; how many have we seen up against top class PL opposition? Say against a team of top four type players?

When Poch and the team assess whether a player is ready they get them to train with the first team squad, in that way they get to see how they perform against much better players, and importantly teams, than they face week in, week out in the youth leagues. On the basis of how they do in this environment they either get promoted to the first team squad or not.

When a player like Lesniak doesn't get promoted we can choose to believe it is because he's just been ignored because the coaches are blind to his qualities or stuck in a conservative rut, or we can choose to believe it's because the coaches assess that he's not ready having seen him up close.

If we think the former, as I did with Redknapp, we have to consider the coach's track record of promoting youth, of going with the callow over the million dollar signing.

It seems to me that last season we had the youngest squad in the PL by some margin. We probably had all ten of the ten youngest matchday 11s to play last season. We saw him unafraid to leave experience on the bench in favour of the younger guy. We saw him give players a try based on what they were doing in training rather than reputation, and so we got players like Dier and Deli Alli performing in the match-day squad. Then we can look at what he did at Southampton, how many youth players he promoted to his squad, and how they did once they got in. And also his record at Espanyol. Poch is a coach who is not afraid to give youth a go if he thinks they're up to it.

If the coach didn't have such a track record then by all means tear your hair out.

What I really don't think we should be doing however is having a dogmatic opinion of youth players playing in youth teams, based on what we've seen in the odd streamed match against other youth teams. We should surely admit the limit of the conclusions we're able to draw from such scanty evidence and decide to trust the coaches.

I always base my opinions on players on highlight videos from Youtube: the ones with the dance music soundtracks. I feel that gives me an objectivity that might be lacking elsewhere on here.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I've got no problem with you having an opinion at all. I'm just saying that unfortunately, and I think even you know it, that the idea of playing an untested youngster (or having him as "back up") would be ludicrous instead of a player like wanyama. Alli has shown if you're good enough, you're old enough and if any of the youth products were as good, or thought to be ready this season then they'd play I'm sure.

The stubborn viewpoint about playing youth is to be commended but ultimately pointless as you don't get points or silverware for playing youth players. I'd rather be winning trophies than being given a pat on the back for playing an u19 player against PSG or equivalent and getting smashed. Wanyama is a significant upgrade on Mason, Carroll or Bentaleb for our midfield and is great business.

It's not a stubborn viewpoint about blindly playing youth. The context of this conversation is that some are saying what a great idea it is we are paying 11m for what will fundamentally be a "back-up" player. My point was (and is mostly) that that can be a remit that our academy can provide in some cases, and in the process we will find some aren't good enough and some are good enough and some are blindingly good. It's not a new concept, clubs all over Europe do it all the time - then we end up paying 10-20m for those players.

 

[samsonlevi]

Think everything about this transfer has been discussed now.

From the predicted pros and cons of signing VW

And based on this (not that it's needed) I give my approval to this signing!!

Now to all those moaning....cheer up lads/girls....this is not something or even close to something you should be getting frustrated by or annoyed at!

 

[keithtighe93]

BC, I love reading some of your stuff & you seem pretty knowledgeable in plenty of areas in the game.

However, I feel if you had your way our squad would be made up exclusively of academy graduates & exclude players over the age of 25.

If this were the case we would be in the Championship IMO.

Yes, we are seeing a lot of our young guys are well able to step up & be part of it to varying extents - Kane, Dier, Alli, Rose, Walker, Bentaleb, Mason etc. & whilst these are not all academy graduates they all were at the club as young guys.

To suggest Filip Lesniak, a player who although may be talented, is yet to play a second of PL or senior football, is a better option than Victor Wanyama, a seasoned PL player, International & top 7 standard player is fucking nuts.

Understand where you come from in wanting to promote when possible & not spend on average players but it's not always possible.

 

[Mr Pink]

When we talk about our youth players; how many have we seen up against top class PL opposition? Say against a team of top four type players?

When Poch and the team assess whether a player is ready they get them to train with the first team squad, in that way they get to see how they perform against much better players, and importantly teams, than they face week in, week out in the youth leagues. On the basis of how they do in this environment they either get promoted to the first team squad or not.

When a player like Lesniak doesn't get promoted we can choose to believe it is because he's just been ignored because the coaches are blind to his qualities or stuck in a conservative rut, or we can choose to believe it's because the coaches assess that he's not ready having seen him up close.

If we think the former, as I did with Redknapp, we have to consider the coach's track record of promoting youth, of going with the callow over the million dollar signing.

It seems to me that last season we had the youngest squad in the PL by some margin. We probably had all ten of the ten youngest matchday 11s to play last season. We saw him unafraid to leave experience on the bench in favour of the younger guy. We saw him give players a try based on what they were doing in training rather than reputation, and so we got players like Dier and Deli Alli performing in the match-day squad. Then we can look at what he did at Southampton, how many youth players he promoted to his squad, and how they did once they got in. And also his record at Espanyol. Poch is a coach who is not afraid to give youth a go if he thinks they're up to it.

If the coach didn't have such a track record then by all means tear your hair out.

What I really don't think we should be doing however is having a dogmatic opinion of youth players playing in youth teams, based on what we've seen in the odd streamed match against other youth teams. We should surely admit the limit of the conclusions we're able to draw from such scanty evidence and decide to trust the coaches.

Is there anything more to say than that? More qualified people's opinion carries more weight, simple as that - we must trust their judgement.

 

[Japhet]

It's not a stubborn viewpoint about blindly playing youth. The context of this conversation is that some are saying what a great idea it is we are paying 11m for what will fundamentally be a "back-up" player. My point was (and is mostly) that that can be a remit that our academy can provide in some cases, and in the process we will find some aren't good enough and some are good enough and some are blindingly good. It's not a new concept, clubs all over Europe do it all the time - then we end up paying 10-20m for those players.

I don't think Wanayama will be a back up player. He will be a rotation option. Unfortunately, you can't pick and choose when to deploy back up players anyway. The chances are that injuries would occur at the least convenient time. Suspensions at the end of the season cost us dear because we lacked quality on the bench or rotation options for Dembele and Alli, particularly with Bentaleb being injured. We rode our luck last season with lack of depth and I for one would have loved to have had Wanyama around when Dier was on the edge with 9 yellow cards. I'd have been going nuts if Lesniak was the option.

 

[Mr Pink]

I have repeatedly said I understand the pressure that has been placed on managers and that the environment in which the development process can bare more fruition has to be created from the top down - from Levy in other words. I believe that the environment has slightly changed with Pochettino's appointment, statements were made about us appointing a coach that is renowned and prepared to integrate youth, but the realities of that policy must be accepted by the hierarchy and filtered through the club.

I, or no one that wants to see a little more integration are being the zealots that we are often made out to be. I don't want quotas, I don't expect any kid to be automatic first team choice. I don't expect radical, 11 men from the academy stuff. All I (and others) would like to see is a really moderate shift in attitude. Last season not one new academy player made any substantial advance in their career. Bentaleb and Pritchard's careers (two of the most promising) went backwards, as did Mason's (largely through injury to be fair to Poch).

And I don't really get the whole "playing academy kids is such a huge risk for the manager" thing either. Have any of the kids we've deemed good enough for first team chances over the last few years been any more calamitous or even just "meh" as some of the signings we have played ? Would Oduwa been any more raw or risky than NJie ? Would he or Pricthard been lazier without the ball than Chadli ? Would Pritchard been more clumsy and erratic or worse without the ball than Son as an AM ?
Would KWP have been any more of a liability defensively than Trippier or any worse creatively than Walker ?

Is a bought "squad" option always better than a kid who's been honed to work our exact system, coached daily to fit Poch's methodology and philosophy ? Even if he isn't uber talented ?

Sloth nailed it - our judgement with these academy kids isn't the complete picture, nowhere near it. We don't know how they'd cope against higher quality players, Poch does.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Is there anything more to say than that? More qualified people's opinion carries more weight, simple as that - we must trust their judgement.

I have said this for awhile. I don't think people appreciate how much emphasis Poch puts on training - and he sees it all. He sees the quality, the mentality, and the effort that goes into each player's training. Its no secret that the very first inkling we had that Alli might be a pretty good player for us was the ITK talking about Alli's training performances.

I trust that Poch, and the committee, have a depth chart that includes every player in the first team, under-21s, and academy lads. They know where there are gaps, and who is close to breaking into the first team. I think they will buy where we don't have anyone ready to step up, and allow players who are close an opportunity to step-up.

I think one of the things that gets overlooked by many is how much harder it is to break into a top-4 squad, than it is to break into a mid-table squad. I think the legitimate expectations for this club for the foreseeable future is to be a top-4 club, competing for trophies. The quality of player required to maintain that level is high - and I don't expect Poch to lower that threshold simply for the sake of giving players a debut. He will continue to work with those players and push them towards that level - but the path to the first team is difficult.

I do think we need to be better about loans - given the importance that will play on the players development. But, simply giving them games before they are ready does a disservice to the player and the squad.

 

[thfc1989]

Straight into B-C's 1000 page dossier to show Poch where he's going wrong..

My general rule is that if lolly pop lady thinks he is a bad signing he will probably be a good one.