Players attitudes post CC Final

[DC_Boy]

It all boils down to MONEY.

exactly double0 - as i Keep saying - on the current ENIC business model we ain't gonna break the top 4 - we either get in owners who can spend mega or ENIC change their policy. They stop worrying about balancing the books and, as it seems Ramos might have said, bite the debt bullet and go for it (crazy metaphors I know

now I'm not saying we should scrap the ENIC sensible way - because I can live with the Spurs of the past few years - and even spending mega money won't guarantee breaking the top 4 they're that strong - but realistically if we wanna go for it we're talking mega money -

for me the mega money should on the stadium as well as the players - that's how big the task is, because I'd trust a new/expanded stadium to deliver the goods more long term than chucking cash at players - but short term chucking the cash at players and hoping the incomers and current players respond is all I can see as the way forward -

 

[tRiKS]

I tell my friends about this drivvle that gets spouted out on here as to Ramos not 'revealing his tactical tricks/cards'. You know what they do? They laugh at it as do I because that's rubbish, do you really think at half time Ramos stands int he changing room and just says 'Take a breather lads and when you go out there for the second half don't do anything different', 'Lennon you're full backs looking a bit exposed, don't do anything though, we don't want people seeing you skinning him and thinking we have stop you doing that when we play you next year'

What do you think the changes to formation are during games, pulling off a defender, reshaping the team moving players around, those are Ramos' tactics, those are his tricks. We simply haven't been good enough and quite frankly apart from a few games early doors neither has Ramos. Berbatov playing almost as a midfielder, our midfielders frequently playing in defence.. that's what's been messing us up.

I'm not against Ramos, I hope he leads us to great success, but as far as I can see, his management and his ideas with the current players we have don't work all that well.

Don't be silly enough to think that a man that took off a player and didn't bring on a replacement because he thought his team were cruising during a match would ever hold back from trying to win every match 100%. If that's the case he's hypocrite and how can he demand the most from players when he's not giving it himself.

At no point do i think he offfers neagtive/anti performance speech or instructions. I think it';s more of a case of wht he doesn't say. To anyone other than Ramos and possibley Poye know one would be able to sit on on a half time team talk and tell the difference.

As soon as went went out the UEFA he canceleld double sessions and sent our Captain on holiday. we had 3 bookings in the last 10 games... 2 were for a hot headed youngster. It makes sense to me.

Ramos is never going admitt he's resting himself so i'll never be able to prove my theory. I think even if/when we start well, really well next year i doubt the naysayers on my theory will attribute it to this canny peice of long sightedness from Ramos. I expect other reasons for it would be offered. I will feel happy though.

You're commenting on the "deliberately going down to 10 men match" like you know the nuts and bolts of the situtation? please explain the context of the match and also what match was to follow please. I know, do you?

 

[tRiKS]

I agree. The one thing I would say is that we've done only marginally better over the last ten games than we did over the first ten, the difference being that over the first ten the popular consensus was that it was the coach's fault, not the players'. Now that consensus appears to have gone in the opposite direction. Yet, with two or three obvious exceptions, this is the essentially the same squad, with, we are assured, added fitness, improved nutrition, and, er…

Whatever we are missing now we were missing in August and September, and back then some of us were saying that once the players were out on the field the coach could do very little to influence matters short of running on the pitch himself and physically dragging them into position.

As far as one can tell—and this can only be surmise—one of the reasons Jol fell out of favour was that he told Levy the squad didn't have sufficient quality or strength in depth to mount a serious challenge to the Cartel. It appears to have taken Ramos to persuade Levy that his predecessor was actually right.

I know you agree with him.

The games under ramos in the league and Carling cup had double training sessions the last 10 did not. We don't have to be "assured" we had all those things. We HAD those things but we stopped doing it after the second PSV game! hummmm you have a bee in your bonnet on this subject which is clouding you inclusion of all the facts in your posts on it which is most unlike you Mr senior member sir :bowdown:

 

[Kendall]

Arsenal spend less money than us yet they compete in the CL year in year out, despite losing their top players. They buy cheap and don't really pay top wages. So don't tell me it's all about money. We've spent a lot and got nowhere.

It's about sourcing the right players, coach and getting the right 'team' emphasis. We've got a group of players who are capable of pushing for the CL (like Everton) but we don't have the 'team' mentality to do it yet. It's not a money thing.

 

[tRiKS]

That's exactly what i think, yet there are still many people that seem reluctant to accept this. We were first told of the boards unrest with Jol during the summer and just 2 games into the season Ramosgate happens. Levy isn't some emotionally driven moron, but a top class business man and hugely successful academic (1st degree from cambridge). He wouldn't have sanctioned we got to Seville on a whim or 2 games losing streak. Clearly he had been advised that with the squad Jol had, we should have done better than 5th. We even had that absurd club statement in which it was clearly stated that we thought the squad should be challenging the top 4. Yet here we are less than a year later and the new coach has already spent about £36 million. And I strongly suspect we'll be spending a good deal more in the coming months. People can argue he's got to have players for his style, but htat's a total contradiction of why we had the two tier system. The system was put in place to ensure continuity and thus stop the need for wholesale changes. There can be little doubt that, as you said, the main impact Ramos has had is to convince Levy Jol was right. I can't really see why there is still any argument over this.

I totally agree with you and SS57 on this.

I don't think this and the fact Ramos is also taking a bit of a mental break are mutually exclusive. More over, if Ramos is dealing with tools now exposed as inferior to what the chairman et al thinks, then to stop the slide AND win a cup took great effort and is even more of a reason why once there was nothing further to be gained from the league and cups he eased off for his own good and in preperation for next year.

 

[joey55]

Arsenal spend less money than us yet they compete in the CL year in year out, despite losing their top players. They buy cheap and don't really pay top wages. So don't tell me it's all about money. We've spent a lot and got nowhere.

It's about sourcing the right players, coach and getting the right 'team' emphasis. We've got a group of players who are capable of pushing for the CL (like Everton) but we don't have the 'team' mentality to do it yet. It's not a money thing.

But Kendall, things have significantly changes since Arsenal became the club they are now. When Wneger took over, they alreay had several huge big names and numerous title winners in their squad. Their entire back 5 were England internationals and this was at a time when England players were amongst the best in the league. They had 2 England captains in the squad. Wenger was in a position where he could add to that with some real quality young players. He added the likes of Overmars and Petite, who at the time weren't that cheap and were both established stars and International footballers. There is so little in comparison between our starting postion (2004 when Arnesen came in) and Arsenals in 1996. Also, Wenger was the first prem coach to really employ a world wide scouting network and this gave him a well earned advantage. That advantage is no longer there. All top clubs have scouting networks all over the world now (even Nani is doing it a Wham).

I agree with what you are saying about mentallity, but i thnk the the players that we've bought recently that show the right kind of mentallity are Woodgate and Hutton and they both cost money. The Arsenal squad already had the mentallity, but were unprofessional (as was the Prem in general back then) and lacked in couple of key areas. Wenger spent money in these areas, brought a more professional approach to the club and then was able to bring the best youngster into that environment. But a similar approach being successful for us, with the current state of the Prem is unlikley.

 

[SpurSince57]

I know you agree with him.

The games under ramos in the league and Carling cup had double training sessions the last 10 did not. We don't have to be "assured" we had all those things. We HAD those things but we stopped doing it after the second PSV game! hummmm you have a bee in your bonnet on this subject which is clouding you inclusion of all the facts in your posts on it which is most unlike you Mr senior member sir :bowdown:

We may well have stopped the double sessions after we went out of the CL. That doesn't alter the fact that we haven't in general played well in the league since long before the CC final.

We took 17 points from Ramos' first nine games, which was about as good as we could realistically have hoped for, and which, if continued, could have seen us mount a realistic challenge for a UEFA Cup challenge via the league; yet only 11 came from the next nine (and six of those were against Derby and Sunderland), and 11 from the last nine. And, yes, whilst we have seen Spurs play some very good football, we've also seen sudden unaccountable collapses. We saw the same pattern in the first ten games, and indeed in the home game against Blackburn. The defence has improved, but is hardly bombproof; we still shipped an average of 1.4 GPG, which is at least 0.4 too many for a side with top four aspirations.

Take out those first nine games under Ramos, and we've averaged 1 PPG for the season, unless my sums are wrong. Which is nicely symmetrical, but not in the way you'd want.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Yes , I read all these wise old heads saying Ramos has improved nothing and if anything is poorer than Jol...

But hasn't our set piece defending improved...haven't we changed our entire defensive concept to zonal marking ?

 

[joey55]

Yes , I read all these wise old heads saying Ramos has improved nothing and if anything is poorer than Jol...

But hasn't our set piece defending improved...haven't we changed our entire defensive concept to zonal marking ?

Didn't that coincide with the purchases of Woodgate and Hutton? How many errors has Hutton made from set peices compared to Chimbonda, or Woodgate compared to either Dawson/kaboul. I remember at least 3 Robbo errors from set peices. Zonal marking is nothing new and is a basci concept. Things like Robbo dropping the ball (ie Villa) or totally missing the cross (Arsenal) have fuck all to do with the system. It's the same with Chimbonda, Dawson or Kaboul switching off. We are just another example, as with Pompey and Everton of teams who have a bad record from set peices that have solved it by changing the players. The team with the second worse set peice record in the Prem after us at the start of the season was Newcastle and their coach was Sam Allardyce! Allardyce is a coach who is known for the significance he places on set pieces and his Bolton team were recognised for their ability to score from and defend set peices. You really don't need to tell Jonathan Woodgate how to defend a corner. In fact he probably can teach Gus and Juande a thing or two.

No two coach's are the same and each will do certain things differently, but the impact these changes can have at this level isn't as great as many seem to think and therefore I don't think people are being fair to Ramos. I sometimes think people think that over the summer Ramos is going to turn the training ground into some football version of Hogwarts and magically make our players better. There are certainly incompetent coach's out there and when a competent coach replaces him, there is a significant margin to improve. But Jol was anything but incompetent and therefore to expect Ramos to come in and have a dramatic impact with his coaching methods is unrealistic and ultimately unfair on the guy. This is why I think some people are already expressing disatisfaction with him, as I think they believed the unrealistic hype. He needs to be given a fair chance and for this to happen people need to stop mentioning Jol and what he did at Seville etc. I seriously doubt Ramos has any intentions of "coaching" the players he inherited into a top 4 side. I think and his actions so far suggest, that he'll be ivesting heavily in better players and on the coaching side, keeping things very simple and making few changes.

 

[JKD76]

As far as one can tell—and this can only be surmise—one of the reasons Jol fell out of favour was that he told Levy the squad didn't have sufficient quality or strength in depth to mount a serious challenge to the Cartel. It appears to have taken Ramos to persuade Levy that his predecessor was actually right.

Totally agree,Levy seems to have more respect for Ramos and his opinions,who having only been here about 3 months added 2 desperately needed top quality players.Then last month we sign Modric.
The squad is already looking stronger than it did last year,and hopefully will be a couple more good additions in the summer.

 

[Banjo]

Kendall,

I'm not sure that 'the Arsenal have spent more than us' arguement holds too much water. I remember a post after the semi-final of the CC where someone analysed the cost/experience of Arsenal's so called 'youth team' only too find that in terms of age, cost and experience Arsenal 'youth' were not so different from Spurs' 'full' team.

I do agree with the point that some have made, that it seems it has taken the appointment of Ramos to make the case to the board that if they want success they need to invest in quality now - less of the speculation. Ramos has a lot of leverage at the moment - the board can't sack him now without looking like a complete bunch of (fill in your own expletive)!

 

[tRiKS]

We may well have stopped the double sessions after we went out of the CL. That doesn't alter the fact that we haven't in general played well in the league since long before the CC final.

We took 17 points from Ramos' first nine games, which was about as good as we could realistically have hoped for, and which, if continued, could have seen us mount a realistic challenge for a UEFA Cup challenge via the league; yet only 11 came from the next nine (and six of those were against Derby and Sunderland), and 11 from the last nine. And, yes, whilst we have seen Spurs play some very good football, we've also seen sudden unaccountable collapses. We saw the same pattern in the first ten games, and indeed in the home game against Blackburn. The defence has improved, but is hardly bombproof; we still shipped an average of 1.4 GPG, which is at least 0.4 too many for a side with top four aspirations.

Take out those first nine games under Ramos, and we've averaged 1 PPG for the season, unless my sums are wrong. Which is nicely symmetrical, but not in the way you'd want.

good work?

not sure how this relates to my theory that Ramos has made a concious effort to ease up a bit. I'm not pretending we were any good particually at any stage of the league season. I'm Just saying there's been a marked difference in how we prepare for games since the Uefa cup, how much we fight after half-time and how we have dealt with tactical changes and use of Subsititutes. All points towards a purposful man.

A purpose you don't agree with becasue you don't think it's fair on the fans? and i assume on a footballing level you think it's an apathy that can lead to complacency at the start of next season?.. correct me if i've not guessed correctly.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Kendall - well we simply disagree on this as on quite a few other things - to me it's predominantly about money, mega-money- without that the rest will fail

of course that money has to be spent well - but I can't see us breaking the top 4 without spending a lot of cash - that includes wages as well as transfers - ie buying proven quality as well as 'up and comers' and bargain buys too if possible

Yes Arsenal have shown you can do it fairly cheaply - but it must be remembered that up until fairly recently AFC's wage bill was far bigger than ours - so though their net transfer spend was lower over the past 10-15 years their net complete spend was higher than our - up till about 2/3 years ago

I don't know the current stats - I suspect now we've moved above them

however they have a name in Europe way bigger than ours - they can get a Fabregas extremely cheaply - could we have done?

Also they are blessed in having Wenger and a fantastic network that seems to do deals we can't

so given those obstacles as a 'lower rated brand' I can only see us breaking in by spending mega

Everton are trying to do it on the cheap and failing and will continue to fail

they got a 4th spot once - and flopped the season after

they haven't won a trophy for 13 years or so - we are more successful than Everton over the past ten years

When I talk about breaking into the top 4 - or turning the Big 4 into the Big 5 I don't mean a top 4 spot every ten or twenty years - we're capable of that on the current model

I mean doing what the top 4 regularly do - play in CL and win 5/6 trophies a decade - not 1/2 as our model will allow

and that 5/6 will include at least one of the 'big 2' Prem or CL

even the weakest of the Big 4 in the last ten years Pool - have won what - 5 trophies including a CL and a UEFA cup (an incredibly difficult feat incidentally - I think the only english club to win a UEFA since we won it in 84)

they've also been in a CL final and semi-final

the rest we know about as well

that's the level I'm talking about - that's a level way beyond us, Everton or any other challenger without mega bucks

and yes we need the mentality, the luck, and much else too

 

[joey55]

This might put things into perspective. In the 27 games since Ramos has taken over, we've got 39 pts and Liverpool 55pts. Pro rata that works out at about a gap of 22pts between us and the 4th best side. That is huge! Yet today Steven Gerrard is stressing that Liverpool have to strengthen and i doubt he is talking about buying a few "for the future."
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3579541,00.html

Three years ago the gap between the top 4 and 5th was 2pts, then last season 8 pts and now this season 11 pts. It seems that the top 4 are getting stronger, rather than the chasing pack getting closer.

 

[SpurSince57]

good work?

not sure how this relates to my theory that Ramos has made a concious effort to ease up a bit. I'm not pretending we were any good particually at any stage of the league season. I'm Just saying there's been a marked difference in how we prepare for games since the Uefa cup, how much we fight after half-time and how we have dealt with tactical changes and use of Subsititutes. All points towards a purposful man.

A purpose you don't agree with becasue you don't think it's fair on the fans? and i assume on a footballing level you think it's an apathy that can lead to complacency at the start of next season?.. correct me if i've not guessed correctly.

If that is what's happened, too damned right I don't think it's fair on the fans. I don't get to too many games these days, but I'd be bloody livid if I were paying good money and it turned out that we were playing for half a game on orders. It's bad enough listening to this crap on the radio.

But I don't believe that is the case, because I don't believe for a moment Ramos is keeping a load of special tricks up his sleeve for next season. As joey said before, football's not gridiron. The differences we'll see next season will be in personnel.

 

[Rabbi_Krustofski]

This might put things into perspective. In the 27 games since Ramos has taken over, we've got 39 pts and Liverpool 55pts. Pro rata that works out at about a gap of 22pts between us and the 4th best side. That is huge! Yet today Steven Gerrard is stressing that Liverpool have to strengthen and i doubt he is talking about buying a few "for the future."
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3579541,00.html

Three years ago the gap between the top 4 and 5th was 2pts, then last season 8 pts and now this season 11 pts. It seems that the top 4 are getting stronger, rather than the chasing pack getting closer.

To be fair you're comparing a manager who's built his side and a manager who's just joined and inherited a struggling side.

 

[stemark44]

I was wondering how football people throughout Europe i.e players/fans view our season -
Spurs won the Carling Cup because -option A)They have very good players.
.................................................option B) Ramos is a great manager.

Spurs finished 11th in the Premiership because -A)They have very average players.
.................................................................B)Ramos is an average manager.

Does'nt matter I know the answer!

 

[PT]

This might put things into perspective. In the 27 games since Ramos has taken over, we've got 39 pts and Liverpool 55pts. Pro rata that works out at about a gap of 22pts between us and the 4th best side. That is huge! Yet today Steven Gerrard is stressing that Liverpool have to strengthen and i doubt he is talking about buying a few "for the future."
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11095_3579541,00.html

Three years ago the gap between the top 4 and 5th was 2pts, then last season 8 pts and now this season 11 pts. It seems that the top 4 are getting stronger, rather than the chasing pack getting closer.

Put the blame squarely at the door of UEFA which has spawned a cartel of elite clubs throughout Europe by way of the Champions League format.

Four qualifiers from the English Premiership League and coincidently the very same four clubs that have the top four positions fairly well sewn up.

As Keegan said, the rich just keep getting richer and the chasm wider. It wil take one monumental effort for one of the remaining sixteen clubs to take fourth and then retain it for the true riches to have any effect.

If Ramos, being the top European manager that he is, coordinates his selections next season, both physically and mentally, to challenge for fourth, it will be as if we've won the title if it's put in to perspective. The true test will be if that is able to be established as a platform to the tresures of that Elite group,s chest of prizes.

 

[joey55]

To be fair you're comparing a manager who's built his side and a manager who's just joined and inherited a struggling side.

It's not about comparing managers, but illustrating the size of the gap that needs to be closed if we are to challenge the top 4. But, as a side point, we might have been struggling, but we certainly weren't your typical struggling side. We definitely had the 5th best squad in the Prem and I would be very dissapointed if we didn't finish 5th next season. However, I certainly don't agree with what would seem to have been the board's opinion, which was we were a good coach away from breaking into the top 4. I thought and now more than ever think, our 2 5th place finishes were a fantastic achievments that have clearly been under valued by both people at the club and sections of our fans.

 

[Limee]

Levy seems to have more respect for Ramos and his opinions

He really has very little choice, based on how much effort he made to get Ramos.

it seems it has taken the appointment of Ramos to make the case to the board that if they want success they need to invest in quality now - less of the speculation. Ramos has a lot of leverage at the moment - the board can't sack him now without looking like a complete bunch of (fill in your own expletive)!

I concur.

I would be very dissapointed if we didn't finish 5th next season. However, I certainly don't agree with what would seem to have been the board's opinion, which was we were a good coach away from breaking into the top 4. I thought and now more than ever think, our 2 5th place finishes were a fantastic achievments that have clearly been under valued by both people at the club and sections of our fans.

I think finishing 5th is the most important thing and biggest pressure for next season. If we fall short of that without picking up silverware then questions will certainly be asked.