Players available on a Bosman this summer. We interested?

[sim0n]

My mate copy and pasted me a link to a Liverpool forum which had a list of all the players that are available on a Bosman this summer. Do any of these interest you? Would we have a place for any of them?

Motta as a DM anybody? Zanetti? Cassano? Crespo? Sylvinho? Nedved? Kewell for LW? I know he's had his injuries, but Vidukas still doing it at almost 33! We gave Woody the chance. Surely it wouldn't hurt to have a seasoned player here for a season/2 seasons to help our young players ala Davids. Just throwing some thoughts in....What do you lot think?

solari was good about 4-5 years ago, roman bednar (touted as the next jan koller), joking aside - kehl, and phillip degen is meant to be a defender of interest for Spurs. zanetti will never leave inter, as nedved will probably never leave juve. there are a lot of "past their sell by date" brazilians and balkan players...

 

[sim0n]

I think it's pretty safe bet that we'd be challenging Everton, Pompey etc for 4/5 th place. We have proved over the course of this season that with a slightly improved defence we are easily good enough to challenge for 4th/5th. (but not creative enough to challenge for 2/3rd)

lack of creativity doesn't seem to stop liverpool from competing - granted they're 4th, they are a dead bore...

 

[Flatters]

I expect a number of those players will retire at the end of the season.

 

[jondesouza]

Reports in Spain are suggesting that Ujfalusi has signed for Atlético.

 

[Dharmabum]

What some seem to forget about Bosman-players: the good ones demands huge signing on-fees, that are fairly close to what their transfer value would be, and/or huge salaries; so they don't come that cheap at all.

 

[nightgoat]

Crespo still has some class in him in my opinion.

Sebastian Kehl and Philip Degen would be handy too.

He's off to Liverpool, so it seems...

Schmeichel might be worth a punt as a future/backup keeper, especially if both Cerny and Robinson leave...

 

[joey55]

Where did you get the "completely broken down" thing from. I thought they'd disagreed on a couple of players (Capel ? for example) but I've never read that their relationship had broken down. I'm sure I've seen him quoted as saying he thought pretty highly of Monichi (is Monichi still at Sevilla ?) and that a modern coach needs a DOF.

As for the kick in the bollocks for Comoli, I'm not too sure. In an article in the guardian in August Jol talks about Dawson being his player of the season the previous year and we all know he loved Robinson and would never drop him. If Jol would have spotted what Ramos spotted instantly in the previous two years I think it's pretty safe bet that we'd be challenging Everton, Pompey etc for 4/5 th place. We have proved over the course of this season that with a slightly improved defence we are easily good enough to challenge for 4th/5th. (but not creative enough to challenge for 2/3rd)

And I think more than a kick in the bollocks, Comoli will be delighted that where attempts to sign quality players (Nani eg) often met with failure (for various reasons) in Ramos we now have a manager that quality players respect (especially having watched himturn us into a trophy winning side immediately) as Modric was quick to point out.(and Wodgate for that matter).

B-C, you are just being stubborn. Ramos has come in and vindicated pretty much everything you criticised Jol for. Other than Lee, his team selections are very similar to Jol's and he clearly isn't a fan of many of the players Comolli brought to the club over the last year or so. Is it not fair to say last season we proved that with a better defence and an improvement in midfield then we could challenge the top 4? The league table suggested that was the case and much more so than we have shown this season since Ramos took over (not in anyway a slight at Ramos who i think is doing a great job). And given the players we brought in last summer, it seems Jol wanted a midfielder, CB and left sided option. The trouble was the players recruited to fulill those roles weren't of a high enough standard to improve the team. Hence Ramos came in and straght away tried to buy a left sided option (Downing/Gilberto) and CB (woodgate) and a midfielder (Tiago). He also replaced a recent Comolli signing at RB with Hutton. But even with these additions we don't really look like a side yet ready to challenge the top 4, as you have suggested (the league table since Ramos took over also suggests this). We will still need a couple more quality signings, which again suggests how poorly the board were advised when led to believe we had a squad capable of challenging the top 4. Poyets famous "not good enough" rant also supports this and the subsequent player purchases. This has undeniably been a huge kick in the bollocks for Comolli.

I thought your main criticism of Jol was that he didn't pick the players you liked (and to an extent I agreed). But Ramos has totally ignored Rocha and Gardner in favour of Dawson, which was surely your main gripe. He's also backed Dawson ahead of Kaboul. You are a big fan of Lee, but again Ramos doesn't like him. You criticed Jol's tactics, yet Ramos plays the same way and gets similar (if not quite as good - again not a slight at Ramos) results. To be honest, the only reason I can think of that you might like Ramos, is simply because he isn't Jol. Other than that, they are very similar and both make decisions that must bug the shit out of you. I can't imagine Ramos prefference for Keane over Defoe went down particuarly well with you either. As for Robbo, Ramos owed him no loyalty, yet still picked him for the CC final and Cerny has hardly looked like a rock himself.

Obviously no two coaches are the same, but Ramos has by and large come in and really supported most of the things you and others didn't like about Jol. In short, you are right, we are on the verge of being a top 4 side, but we were for the previous 2 seasons. The key difference Ramos will make is that he can bring in the right players, not these half arsed apparent stars of the future Jol had to work with. Players are the key and always have been. Look at the Carling Cup victory. Would we have won had Woodgate not marshalled Drogba so brilliantly (or more importantly scored)? Would we have been in the final had a major stars not been fit (unlike last season)? Obviously no one can answer those things, but I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously thinks we would have. It comes down to players and always will.

As for the other stuff i don't want to say how I know (about Ramos and Monchi etc) as it is a long post, would kind of be breaking confidence and I didn't really learn anything that interesting, just a lot of stuff that will drag up old arguments from the past, none of which are worth disscussing as we can't do anything about them now.

 

[Coyboy]

B-C, you are just being stubborn. Ramos has come in and vindicated pretty much everything you criticised Jol for. Other than Lee, his team selections are very similar to Jol's and he clearly isn't a fan of many of the players Comolli brought to the club over the last year or so. Is it not fair to say last season we proved that with a better defence and an improvement in midfield then we could challenge the top 4? The league table suggested that was the case and much more so than we have shown this season since Ramos took over (not in anyway a slight at Ramos who i think is doing a great job). And given the players we brought in last summer, it seems Jol wanted a midfielder, CB and left sided option. The trouble was the players recruited to fulill those roles weren't of a high enough standard to improve the team. Hence Ramos came in and straght away tried to buy a left sided option (Downing/Gilberto) and CB (woodgate) and a midfielder (Tiago). He also replaced a recent Comolli signing at RB with Hutton. But even with these additions we don't really look like a side yet ready to challenge the top 4, as you have suggested (the league table since Ramos took over also suggests this). We will still need a couple more quality signings, which again suggests how poorly the board were advised when led to believe we had a squad capable of challenging the top 4. Poyets famous "not good enough" rant also supports this and the subsequent player purchases. This has undeniably been a huge kick in the bollocks for Comolli.

I thought your main criticism of Jol was that he didn't pick the players you liked (and to an extent I agreed). But Ramos has totally ignored Rocha and Gardner in favour of Dawson, which was surely your main gripe. He's also backed Dawson ahead of Kaboul. You are a big fan of Lee, but again Ramos doesn't like him. You criticed Jol's tactics, yet Ramos plays the same way and gets similar (if not quite as good - again not a slight at Ramos) results. To be honest, the only reason I can think of that you might like Ramos, is simply because he isn't Jol. Other than that, they are very similar and both make decisions that must bug the shit out of you. I can't imagine Ramos prefference for Keane over Defoe went down particuarly well with you either. As for Robbo, Ramos owed him no loyalty, yet still picked him for the CC final and Cerny has hardly looked like a rock himself.

Obviously no two coaches are the same, but Ramos has by and large come in and really supported most of the things you and others didn't like about Jol. In short, you are right, we are on the verge of being a top 4 side, but we were for the previous 2 seasons. The key difference Ramos will make is that he can bring in the right players, not these half arsed apparent stars of the future Jol had to work with. Players are the key and always have been. Look at the Carling Cup victory. Would we have won had Woodgate not marshalled Drogba so brilliantly (or more importantly scored)? Would we have been in the final had a major stars not been fit (unlike last season)? Obviously no one can answer those things, but I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously thinks we would have. It comes down to players and always will.

As for the other stuff i don't want to say how I know (about Ramos and Monchi etc) as it is a long post, would kind of be breaking confidence and I didn't really learn anything that interesting, just a lot of stuff that will drag up old arguments from the past, none of which are worth disscussing as we can't do anything about them now.

Decent

 

[Coyboy]

B-C, you are just being stubborn. Ramos has come in and vindicated pretty much everything you criticised Jol for. Other than Lee, his team selections are very similar to Jol's and he clearly isn't a fan of many of the players Comolli brought to the club over the last year or so. Is it not fair to say last season we proved that with a better defence and an improvement in midfield then we could challenge the top 4? The league table suggested that was the case and much more so than we have shown this season since Ramos took over (not in anyway a slight at Ramos who i think is doing a great job). And given the players we brought in last summer, it seems Jol wanted a midfielder, CB and left sided option. The trouble was the players recruited to fulill those roles weren't of a high enough standard to improve the team. Hence Ramos came in and straght away tried to buy a left sided option (Downing/Gilberto) and CB (woodgate) and a midfielder (Tiago). He also replaced a recent Comolli signing at RB with Hutton. But even with these additions we don't really look like a side yet ready to challenge the top 4, as you have suggested (the league table since Ramos took over also suggests this). We will still need a couple more quality signings, which again suggests how poorly the board were advised when led to believe we had a squad capable of challenging the top 4. Poyets famous "not good enough" rant also supports this and the subsequent player purchases. This has undeniably been a huge kick in the bollocks for Comolli.

I thought your main criticism of Jol was that he didn't pick the players you liked (and to an extent I agreed). But Ramos has totally ignored Rocha and Gardner in favour of Dawson, which was surely your main gripe. He's also backed Dawson ahead of Kaboul. You are a big fan of Lee, but again Ramos doesn't like him. You criticed Jol's tactics, yet Ramos plays the same way and gets similar (if not quite as good - again not a slight at Ramos) results. To be honest, the only reason I can think of that you might like Ramos, is simply because he isn't Jol. Other than that, they are very similar and both make decisions that must bug the shit out of you. I can't imagine Ramos prefference for Keane over Defoe went down particuarly well with you either. As for Robbo, Ramos owed him no loyalty, yet still picked him for the CC final and Cerny has hardly looked like a rock himself.

Obviously no two coaches are the same, but Ramos has by and large come in and really supported most of the things you and others didn't like about Jol. In short, you are right, we are on the verge of being a top 4 side, but we were for the previous 2 seasons. The key difference Ramos will make is that he can bring in the right players, not these half arsed apparent stars of the future Jol had to work with. Players are the key and always have been. Look at the Carling Cup victory. Would we have won had Woodgate not marshalled Drogba so brilliantly (or more importantly scored)? Would we have been in the final had a major stars not been fit (unlike last season)? Obviously no one can answer those things, but I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously thinks we would have. It comes down to players and always will.

As for the other stuff i don't want to say how I know (about Ramos and Monchi etc) as it is a long post, would kind of be breaking confidence and I didn't really learn anything that interesting, just a lot of stuff that will drag up old arguments from the past, none of which are worth disscussing as we can't do anything about them now.

Decent post but the notion that Comolli has had a kick up the ass from Ramos is miles from the truth as is the idea that Ramos 'signed' certain players in January of Luka, Comolli did just as he did with Berba.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C, you are just being stubborn. Ramos has come in and vindicated pretty much everything you criticised Jol for. Other than Lee, his team selections are very similar to Jol's and he clearly isn't a fan of many of the players Comolli brought to the club over the last year or so. Is it not fair to say last season we proved that with a better defence and an improvement in midfield then we could challenge the top 4? The league table suggested that was the case and much more so than we have shown this season since Ramos took over (not in anyway a slight at Ramos who i think is doing a great job). And given the players we brought in last summer, it seems Jol wanted a midfielder, CB and left sided option. The trouble was the players recruited to fulill those roles weren't of a high enough standard to improve the team. Hence Ramos came in and straght away tried to buy a left sided option (Downing/Gilberto) and CB (woodgate) and a midfielder (Tiago). He also replaced a recent Comolli signing at RB with Hutton. But even with these additions we don't really look like a side yet ready to challenge the top 4, as you have suggested (the league table since Ramos took over also suggests this). We will still need a couple more quality signings, which again suggests how poorly the board were advised when led to believe we had a squad capable of challenging the top 4. Poyets famous "not good enough" rant also supports this and the subsequent player purchases. This has undeniably been a huge kick in the bollocks for Comolli.

I thought your main criticism of Jol was that he didn't pick the players you liked (and to an extent I agreed). But Ramos has totally ignored Rocha and Gardner in favour of Dawson, which was surely your main gripe. He's also backed Dawson ahead of Kaboul. You are a big fan of Lee, but again Ramos doesn't like him. You criticed Jol's tactics, yet Ramos plays the same way and gets similar (if not quite as good - again not a slight at Ramos) results. To be honest, the only reason I can think of that you might like Ramos, is simply because he isn't Jol. Other than that, they are very similar and both make decisions that must bug the shit out of you. I can't imagine Ramos prefference for Keane over Defoe went down particuarly well with you either. As for Robbo, Ramos owed him no loyalty, yet still picked him for the CC final and Cerny has hardly looked like a rock himself.

Obviously no two coaches are the same, but Ramos has by and large come in and really supported most of the things you and others didn't like about Jol. In short, you are right, we are on the verge of being a top 4 side, but we were for the previous 2 seasons. The key difference Ramos will make is that he can bring in the right players, not these half arsed apparent stars of the future Jol had to work with. Players are the key and always have been. Look at the Carling Cup victory. Would we have won had Woodgate not marshalled Drogba so brilliantly (or more importantly scored)? Would we have been in the final had a major stars not been fit (unlike last season)? Obviously no one can answer those things, but I find it hard to believe that anyone seriously thinks we would have. It comes down to players and always will.

As for the other stuff i don't want to say how I know (about Ramos and Monchi etc) as it is a long post, would kind of be breaking confidence and I didn't really learn anything that interesting, just a lot of stuff that will drag up old arguments from the past, none of which are worth disscussing as we can't do anything about them now.

So glad you are back. I knew I could tempt you into one of your windy rants. I promised myself I would be on my best behaviour when you returned but fuck it.

If you have read any of the ratings threads you will know that I have criticised some of Ramos's team and tactics. Unlike you with Jol (who I don't think I've ever seen you criticise) I don't think any manager or player is beyond criticism. But first and foremost what Ramos did was complete vindication for the things I had been saying for a long time. The biggest problem was Robinson, followed by the defence. That was clearly recognised by Ramos (unlike Jol who clearly fely Dawson, Chimbonda and Robinson were untouchable). IT was my biggest gripe over the last 18 months. I still think that Kaboul is clearly a better footballer than Dawson and should have had a run out next to Woodgate lately (with pressure very much off) as a learning exercise. I also don't really think Chimbonda or Ohara are better LB's than Lee (and the jury is definately out on Gilberto -who has something of the casual about him).

The whole "players Comoli brought in" remark is a poor attempt at dismissing the evil nemisis of the beloved Jol.

For some reason Comoli can only be to blame for everything and receive crdit for nothing at all in your eyes. So he doesn' get credit for signing the mostly pretty good players that got us to 5th place twice or to qtr finals etc. For signing the players that slabbed arsenal 5-1 and outplayed chelsea in our biggest match since fuck knows when. Or populating our reserves and youth teams with players that win best player in tournement awards in international tournements. It wasn't Comoli that signed Berbatov, Zokora, Woodgate, Hutton, Modric. He was probably to blame for wasting 16mil on Bent as well but credit where it's due. So yes Woodgate (signed by Comoli ?) gets credit but my joint MOTM was Zokora - (definately signed by Comoli) .But you also completely choose to ignore the possibility that Jol was just or even more culpable than Comoli. IF Jol felt he didn't get players he wanted - even though they would have come here - then he should have said. For all you know - and his remarks about Dawson and Robinson, the treatment of Davids, Kanoute suggest he wasn't the best at spotting what was best for the team as opposed for his personal popularity.

As far as tactics go, Jol and Ramos are fucking miles apart. I don't always agree with Ramos's but I can understand the pro-active nature of them. Jol had two sets of tactics. Keane up front or Keane running around deeper flapping his arms. Ramos's has proved almost weekly that his tactics change almost minute by minute and is capable of doing anything required and dropping anyone. Jol clearly could/would not.

Ramos also immediately swapped the Keane and Berbatov roles (another thing I'd been saying for ages). With Berbatov dropping deeper.

And as far as similar results. Someone posted on here a few days ago that since Ramos took over we would have been 6th if the season had started then. Not bad given that we made major changes and won the cup which inevitably killed some hunger. Certainly better than the 18th we were.

Welcome back.

 

[liamc23]

Has Dacourt passed it yet? he might be bale to a DM job for us, and Tomas Sivok is a class DM on Fm not sure what he's like in real life though.

 

[joey55]

Bus-Conductor,

Not back, only here until Friday (got to rent my apartment out).

You don’t know Jol thought Dawson, Robbo and Chimbonda were untouchable. It seems he thought they were the best we had to offer. Ramos would seem to have agreed in that respect and until his injury always picked Chimbonda, Dawson (ahead of the players you think are better) and seems largely undecided and not impressed by either Robbo or Cerny. Like I said before, he owed Robbo no loyalty and wasn’t ever our coach when Robbo was on top form. Your gripe always seemed to be that picked the wrong players, but as I said before, with the acception of Robbo (though not always) Ramos, seems to have been of the same opinion. I said the way to fix a defence is to sign new players and voiced my frustration at our poor acquisitions in the transfer market. In the past, the examples of Everton and Pompey were used brought up by other posters as teams that managed to improve their defensive record and namely their set piece defending and used this to criticise Jol’s coaching. I pointed out that both teams improvements in these areas actually coincided with the transfer at Everton of Howard, Yobbo, Stubbs and at Pompey with James, Campbell and later Disitin. Coaching had fuck all to do with it.

The basic argument we’ve been having for the best part of a year is, is our failure to challenge the top 4 down to poor coaching on Jol’s behalf (your contention) or due to poor transfer market activity which has seen us fall behind other teams (my contention.) My argument is that the effect a coach can have is limited and becomes more so the higher the level of football. I think the key to challenging the top 4 is player acquisitions, not superior coaching. I think Jol is as good a coach as there is. You say I never give Comolli credit, but that isn’t true. I was very happy with the way things were moving along at the club and thought given time we had every chance of challenging the top 4, only not this season. However, the moment our representatives were caught meeting Ramos in Seville, things changed. All of a sudden it seemed our top 5 finishes weren’t good enough. So from that point on, it became a case of if two 5th places aren’t good enough, then who is to blame? You seemed to say Jol, whilst I disagreed. I thought Jols coaching was easily of a top 4 level and results show this. Had the season started when he took over in 2004, we’d have finished 4th, though we had about the 10th best squad. The following season we had about the 6th best squad, yet were hugely unlucky to miss out on the CL and the season after that, we had the 5th best squad and finished 5th. Also, as I pointed out on many occasions, that when Ledley was fit our points average was superior to both that of Liverpool and Arsenal. To me it should be clear, that given the players of appropriate quality, Jol is every bit as good, if not better than his counterparts in the top 4.


I just didn’t see it as realistic for us to finish in the top 4, when the players those clubs had were so superior to ours. Not only that, but I felt in the last year or so the gap in squad quality between us and the top 4 had grown, rather than gotten smaller and also the teams below had narrowed the gap. For example, last year we finished 8 pts short of the top 4, but were conceding too may goals when Leds didn’t play and lacked tempo and protection from midfield. If we bough appropriately in those key positions I thought there was every chance we’d challenge the top 4. But we didn’t! Kaboul was so painfully clearly not the right player to buy. I think he has a lot of potential, but he was undoubtedly a totally ridiculous transfer for what we needed. The same can be said of KPB. Even you agreed we a new CM player, to protect the back 4 and set a better tempo etc. Surely you can see that such signings are just dreadful. It’s been the case in general in key positions, since we came so close to finishing 4th. Whilst in this time Arsenal, Utd and Liverpool have strengthened in their key weak areas. Arsenal’s defence has been bolstered by the likes of Gallas and Sagna, Liverpool have sorted their striking problems and Utd have bought superbly. Lower down the table the likes of Villa, Pompey, City, Blackburn and Everton haven’t spent as much as us, but they’ve improved and strengthen in the right areas. We’ve bought talented players, but not the right players. So whilst others have got comparatively stronger, we’ve got worse. Our squad may on paper be better this year than last, but have we improved to the degree other teams around us have? Martin Jol’s coaching wasn’t the reason for us not finishing higher, he proved himself over the last 3 years. Our player purchases were the reason, though it would seem the board was advised otherwise.

It seems that they thought a change of coach would mean a change of fortune, but as I posted on here many months ago, this is never the case unless the previous coach in incompetent, which Jol clearly wasn’t. Football history clearly demonstrates that whilst at the bottom and mid table level, a good coach can make all he difference (as Jol proved with us), but, at the very top, when dealing with players of such ability, there is little that can be done, to make a lesser team pick up points with the same consistency. You don’t teach top class defenders to defend, midfielders to win the ball and create or strikers to score. You don’t even need to be very tactical as proven by Wenger and Ferguson. The key is to build a great side of great players, that youngsters coming through can learn of and develop to a high standard.

(continues below)

 

[joey55]

Amongst the people I work with Warren Buffet is lauded as a God; he is my work colleague's Glenn Hoddle if you like. Now his basic mantra is one of cut the crap. He has become the world’s richest man by relying on facts and largely ignoring opinion. In fact that is how he makes his money, but disagreeing with popular opinion about the value of a stock. I used this mantra to make money out of football this season. I made two spread bets, looking purely at the cold hard facts and totally ignoring the media, player interviews, message board opinion, coach/manager interviews and ex pro’s or pundits. My second bet was to buy Chelsea in a spread bet at 80.5. This was around the time of the CC final, when no one had anything at all nice to say about Grant and everything he did was shit. Yet the facts told a very different story. At the point I made that bet, had the season started from when Grant took over Chelsea would have been top of the league. Yet every man and his dog were convinced of his ineptitude and that Chelsea were missing Mourinho. Chelsea’s price suggested they’d finish 3rd, yet the fact suggested otherwise. On top of this Essien, Drogba amd Lampard had just returned and they had bought Anelka!

Now the first bet I made, is a little controversial. I’m not ashamed to have done it, as I didn’t care about making money from it, but just an experiment amongst friends, who like me are very interested in how psychology allows people to ignore basic facts etc. Basically, just after Ramos took over, I sold Tottenham at 49.5. The reason I did this, was because opinion (and that is how these spread bet prices are determined) suggested that Ramos was some sort of wonder coach and that we’d fly up the table once he took charge. But, if one looks very carefully at the facts, of the last 3 seasons, the start to our season and Ramos’s past, it suggested this wasn’t going to happen.

As you know (I think you’ve even posted as much yourself), for the first 10 games of the season, despite conceding a shit load of goals, we only gave away the 5th lowest amount of shots on goals. Combined with the fact we had scored the second highest amount of goals it suggest that the set up of our team and the way we approached games was top class. This is in complete contradiction to popular opinion at the time, but that was blurred by psychological tendencies to only see the negatives at such times and thus be unable to remain objective and therefore be comparative with other teams and how they are coached. It seemed the problem was when we did give away chances; our defence couldn’t deal with them. A majority of these seemed to come from set pieces. As I mentioned earlier, the examples of Everton and Pompey show how set piece issues are best dealt with and there was no signs of us doing that, in fact we were told we wouldn’t be signing new players in Jan. Also, ironically the next worst team for defending set pieces at the time was Newcastle, whose coach, Sam Allardyce, was famed for his set piece work. So given we were so well set up, creating so many chances and giving away so few, was it really likely a coach could come in and fix all this? Given our squad, could we really expect to be doing any better (I don’t mean in terms of results, but how the team was operating)? There was no doubt in my mind we’d improve. Removing the uncertainty at the club would straight away have a huge difference on the player’s mentality and our terrible luck couldn’t have gone on much more. But could a coach really come in and show that we’d under achieved over the last couple of years and that Jol was an incompetent? For us to get over 49.5 pts, we’d have had to have matched last seasons form and as you know, I think Jol is as good as there is, so never believed we’d do it.

I rate Ramos highly as a coach. But, only from what I’ve seen of him at Spurs, which in general isn’t the reason others rate him. His work at Seville means nothing to me and though I’m encouraged by what he did with Betis, I never witnessed it, so can’t form an opinion. If you look at his CV, what he achieved at Sevilla seems very impressive and people naturally would expect the same here. But there are some huge key differences. At Seville he took them form 5th to 3rd and a CL spot, which is exactly what we want him to do here – so from that point of view great, it looks like we have the perfect man for the job. But the question is, is the margin for improvement the same here, as it was at Sevilla? We all know he didn’t build the team at Seville – Monchi did. But, the question is, did he get more than he should of out of that team, or was it merely under performing before he arrived. In other words was the previous coach and incompetent? Well, if you look at Caparos (the previous Sevilla coach) record before and after Sevilla it suggests he is a very average coach at best. So, in all likelihood, Seville were underachieving before Ramos took over. Indeed, since he’s left they’ve been coached by Jimenez, who has never coached a first team in his life, yet had the season started when he took over they’d be in a CL spot! So, was Ramos taking over form another incompetent like Caparos, or was he replacing a top coach, where the margin of improvement simply wouldn’t be there. I’d say the way the season has panned out and the fact my bet is already showing a profit, it’s the second option. Also, given the squads at Jol’s disposal our league finishes over the last 3 seasons, also support this theory. The margin to improve simply wasn’t there, no matter what anyone on any forum, the media, players, pundits, coaches or our Sporting Director thought.

(continues)

 

[joey55]

I’m currently working on some stats to show how important the purchase of Woodgate has been. I’ flying back to Seattle on Friday so I’ll try and have it finished by then, but at the moment it’s quite astonishing (no exaggeration). The difference this guy has made to our set piece defending is incredible. I’m not simply seeing how many goals we concede from set pieces when he plays, but how many times we actually win/clear the ball when he is on the park to when he isn’t. Had we not signed this guy, we wouldn’t have been in trouble, but I seriously doubt we’d have got over 40 pts and that our CL claims or 49.5 pts would have seemed like a joke. In terms of the bet I was very unlucky the club backtracked and bought in Jan, but as I said earlier, that was after Poyet came out and simply said we weren’t good enough.

If you listen to all the varying opinions then we were tactically naïve, unmotivated, unfit, made poor team selections and lacked winning instinct, yet now apparently all those things should have gone, yet as I said in my previous post, results are similar, though not quite as good as over the previous 3 years. It just doesn’t add up. Surely given the supposed quality of our squad and new superior coach, we should have blown last seasons results away? In fact, as I’ve posted before, whenever a coach has taken over mid season and then gone on to prove a success, he has always and without a solitary exception, beaten the previous coach’s results in the corresponding fixtures the previous season. Yet we haven’t done it and for one simple reason – Jol was top class and to beat what he achieved in the way Ramos easily beat what Caparos achieved was never realistic.

I think Ramos could be the first coach to buck this trend, but it’ll have nothing to do with superior coaching or tactical methods. Simply because there isn’t much higher we could have gone with this squad than where we have been in the last couple of years. Ramos the coach doesn’t excite me at all (though I rate and respect him highly). Ramos the team builder, the chief buyer, the man in control of his own destiny is what excites me and what makes me incredibly positive about the next season. Surely the history of the likes of Cuper, Benitez, Wenger and most recently Schuster and Grant show that at the top (and the top 4 of the Prem is the very top), it is a case of buying the right players, something we have failed to do in the last year or so. Woodgate proves this. The fact we’ve only lost once in 2 years when Leds, JJ and Berbs play proves this. Our CC ½ final and final prove this (ie our best players were fit). Our ppg average higher than Liverpool and Arsenal over the previous 2 seasons when Leds is fit prove this. At this level, unless you have an incompetent coach, it’s all about the players. The ultimate proof has to be Man Utd, where Fergie does very little coaching and plays very untactical football. Yet he’s about to win his 10th Prem title and won the UEFA Cup with Aberdeen. Unless he’s been incredibly lucky and appointed the 4 best coach’s in Archie Knox, Brain Kidd, Steve McClaren and Quiroz. But their careers away form Ferguson suggest otherwise. Our failure to challenge the top 4 has to be far more to do with poor signings, than the coaching. You may disagree, but it really does fly in the face of results, which surely are the ultimate measure.

If I were you I’d see where Jol goes nest season and put a bet on that team to exceed expectation. Also it would be nice as a big fan of his, to see you and a few others retract some of the things you said about him and acknowledge what a top coach he was for us.

PS I can't beleive I've just wasted 45 minsEek on this reply. I think I'm mentally ill and this forum isn't good for either of us.:wink:

 

[doowaa]

So anyway, back to the thread, Ramelow and Casper Schmiechal (terrible spelling) please. Fill two problem positions. Cassano would be nice after his latest rehabilitation into Italy's best other striker (other than totti) but by all acounts he's off to one of the Milan clubs this summer.

 

[worcestersauce]

Just off slightly but still in the veign of the thread.

How many people think Stoke City have got a hope in hells chance of surviving in the Prem next season, none right thought so, therefore what if Stoke went out and got a new squad from that list who on that list would make a squad good enough to keep Stoke in the Prem.

Just thought this might give us a better idea of who we think is good and therefore worth us considering.

Joey55
Not arguing with you but didn't Woodgate's arrival coincide with Hutton and the change to zonal marking? do you think this also played a part in the improvement?

 

[joey55]

Just off slightly but still in the veign of the thread.

How many people think Stoke City have got a hope in hells chance of surviving in the Prem next season, none right thought so, therefore what if Stoke went out and got a new squad from that list who on that list would make a squad good enough to keep Stoke in the Prem.

Just thought this might give us a better idea of who we think is good and therefore worth us considering.

Joey55
Not arguing with you but didn't Woodgate's arrival coincide with Hutton and the change to zonal marking? do you think this also played a part in the improvement?

Hutton contributed, but the zonal marking would have had little effect. As I said in stupidly long post I'm gathering some Woodgates stats, and they show just how important quality defenders are rather than the system. The thing is, i've just realised how obssessed I am, writing that much is just mental, so I don't know if I'm going to carry on with the Woodgate thing. Basically i'm using the BBC minute by minute review of our games, which I save each week, so I can easily cut to each set piece situation and see who clears the ball etc. But even knowing what the time the corners happen it's very time consuming and ultimately pointless as this is just a message board. But even with the data I've got so far (18 games) it's amazing just how key Woodgate has been. The truth is, he is probably alot more important than Leds!

 

[worcestersauce]

Hutton contributed, but the zonal marking would have had little effect. As I said in stupidly long post I'm gathering some Woodgates stats, and they show just how important quality defenders are rather than the system. The thing is, i've just realised how obssessed I am, writing that much is just mental, so I don't know if I'm going to carry on with the Woodgate thing. Basically i'm using the BBC minute by minute review of our games, which I save each week, so I can easily cut to each set piece situation and see who clears the ball etc. But even knowing what the time the corners happen it's very time consuming and ultimately pointless as this is just a message board. But even with the data I've got so far (18 games) it's amazing just how key Woodgate has been. The truth is, he is probably alot more important than Leds!

Well if it helps I'd be interested in your results and I certainly wouldn't argue about Woodgate's Quality getting him was a real result.

 

[idlepete]

I'd also be interested in seeing your stats, Joey. It's top class obsessive analyses like yours that keep me coming back into Spurs Chat. :up:

 

[Bulletspur]

If they all free sign 'em all I say!

Seriously, I'm starting feel that not only is D.Comolli surplus to requirements, the whole DoF post is naff. Let's have one person, Ramos, clearly in charge and clearly responsible.

While | understand what you are saying, I would not go that far. While I see Ramos as his own person choosing who he wants, I would feel that Camolli has a role in following up, negotiating etc, to free up Ramos for his coaching duties.

Camolli would still retain the remit of building up the reserves / Youth Academy.