Players available on a Bosman this summer. We interested?

[StanSpur]

I hear the brain has been released from the barcodes.

Mr Carr anyone?? ;-)

 

[N17_NEVERARED]

Basinas Greece's finest. I would.

 

[remember91]

Joey 55, liked your post agreed with some of your ideas, disagree with others. With the mess at the start of the season, other than the carling cup, our season hasn't taken off, and once the carling cup and uefa cup were over, we've been waiting for next season. Psychology plays a big part in managing, and if a team loses confidence in a manager (regular for us), or motivation a season can fall apart. Look at Bolton since Allardyce left or the shambles that Newcastle united have been over the years. The same group of players can appear completely different under different managers. And different managers can appear completely different with different groups of players. Would love to see some of your stats next season.

 

[joey55]

Joey 55, liked your post agreed with some of your ideas, disagree with others. With the mess at the start of the season, other than the carling cup, our season hasn't taken off, and once the carling cup and uefa cup were over, we've been waiting for next season. Psychology plays a big part in managing, and if a team loses confidence in a manager (regular for us), or motivation a season can fall apart. Look at Bolton since Allardyce left or the shambles that Newcastle united have been over the years. The same group of players can appear completely different under different managers. And different managers can appear completely different with different groups of players. Would love to see some of your stats next season.

Thess is are interesting points and kind of what I was getting at when I suggest we should ignore all opinion etc and concentrate on the facts. It seems to be popular opinion that our season has gone off the boil since the CC and thus accepted that we aren't doing as well as we would if we had somethung to play for. But results, match stats and to be fair performances (though this is again largelly opinion based and therefore a slight contradiction) show a different story. I think we've taken just 3 less pints in the 11 games post the CC final, to the 11 prior and this is only because we played Derby and Fulham just before it, which inflated our points haul. In terms of chances created, possession and goals conceded we've been the same or better. I personally think we've just been unlucky at times. I thought we played well against Bolton, Boro and Wigan, certainly better than we did against Derby or Sunderland. But either way it is irrelevant as the main point is, our form really hasn't suffered as popular opinion suggests. It just goes to show how much psycology effects the way we percieve things.

I read an interesting quote in another thread earlier on. Which was that Ramos seems to be about to take us to the next level. And this seems to be the general opinion. Yet, in terms of facts (ie results) there isn't even the slightest hint of that happening. When a group of people want to be optimistic they will be and view things as such and vice versa. At the moment we tend to be cherry picking certain results and games and using them as reasons to suggests we are about to reach the next level. But, by doing that we are ignoring the games that suggest otherwise. Just imagine if at the start of the season Jol had played the Hudd on the right of midfield or Zokora at CB against Heskey. People would have gone crazy. Yet, at the moment in general we look to the positives.

The CC cup games are usually cited as reasons we are on the verge of great things, but no one points to the Birmingham, Villa or Newcastle games or any of the UEFA Cup games to suggest that in fact it could just as easily be argued that we aren't. It's pure group psycology. People can suggest the triumph over Arsenal shows Ramos has what it takes to make us a top side, but on the other side of the coin it can just as readily be argued we won this year because we had King fit for both games, JJ fit for both games, Lennon fit for both games and Bebratov fit for both games. Essentially our 3 most important players played 540 minutes over the 2 ties, whilst last season they played 20 mins between them.

As for the Bolton thing, it isn't quite relevant as they aren't really trying to compete at the top. Also, it should be pointed out Newcastle were 9th when Allardyce left, doing better than they now are and that Sammy Lee had never been a manger before. As I said in my original post, it's at the top level when good players become essential and what can be done on the coaching side is limited. This limit is down to the margin of improvement - ie was the previous coach being pretty incompetent and therefore the margin to improve substantial, or was he actually very competent and the margin thus small or even minus. Virtually every single indicator suggests the latter option in our case and thus we are going to have to buy very well in the summer to bridge the gap where the real deficit is - ie the players.

A while ago Harry Redknapp made some comments that I posted here that no one really liked or took seriously, infact they were largely dismissed, despite the fact I provided mountains of evidence that what he was saying was right. But I bring it up again months later as yet once again results show this to be the case.

"It's not about coaching! It's about picking the players, getting them organised, giving them belief, giving them a platform to play without fear and getting the best out of them."
"The great Liverpool teams didn't have coaches. They had managers, trusted in their players, gave them a football and told them to play. A manager knows how to put a team together, balance the team, pick players who can pass the ball."

Look at the results of the likes of Grant, Schuster, Jiminez or see the effect Patriach as had leaving Valencia and joining Athletico. It all indicates that the key to challenging the top clubs has little to do with coaching. To me the suggestion that we failed to finish in the top 4 was to do with the side not being coached well enough and that another coach would change that was and is ludicrous. If our board seriously thought that buying Kaboul and KPB would bridge the gap between us and the top 4 then they are insane.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Bus-Conductor,

Not back, only here until Friday (got to rent my apartment out).

You don’t know Jol thought Dawson, Robbo and Chimbonda were untouchable. It seems he thought they were the best we had to offer.

Come on Joey, in August he called Dawson his player of the season for last season. When it was clear to some of us he was a weak link. And we both know he stuck by Robinson when he shouldn't have.

Ramos would seem to have agreed in that respect and until his injury always picked Chimbonda, Dawson (ahead of the players you think are better) and seems largely undecided and not impressed by either Robbo or Cerny.

Ramos picked Chimbonda at RB until Hutton arrived and then switched him spasmodicaly to LB and has since preferred Ohara and Gilberto.

Like I said before, he owed Robbo no loyalty and wasn’t ever our coach when Robbo was on top form.

Exactly Jol picked Robinson out of loyalty not merit. That is piss poor management and not in the interests of the team. Just his popularity.

Your gripe always seemed to be that picked the wrong players, but as I said before, with the acception of Robbo (though not always) Ramos, seems to have been of the same opinion. I said the way to fix a defence is to sign new players and voiced my frustration at our poor acquisitions in the transfer market. In the past, the examples of Everton and Pompey were used brought up by other posters as teams that managed to improve their defensive record and namely their set piece defending and used this to criticise Jol’s coaching. I pointed out that both teams improvements in these areas actually coincided with the transfer at Everton of Howard, Yobbo, Stubbs and at Pompey with James, Campbell and later Disitin. Coaching had fuck all to do with it.

That wasn't our argument at all. My argument was that Jol didn't want to replace Dawson as stated above. He wanted a stand-in for King. Therefore the choice of Kaboul is understandable. You know full well that I wanted us to sign quality defenders in the summer to replace people like Robinson and Dawson. Even you know this is what I said.
I also believe that Chimbonda wasn't sold to Chelsea to appease Jol who repeadetly praised Chimbonda and picked ahead of Stalteri. Which to a degree is understandable as Chimbonda wasn't that bad.

The basic argument we’ve been having for the best part of a year is, is our failure to challenge the top 4 down to poor coaching on Jol’s behalf (your contention) or due to poor transfer market activity which has seen us fall behind other teams (my contention.)

Again defenately not true and way over simplistic. Any nob knows that the better quality of player you buy the chances are you will improve your team. I said at the start of the season that we won't challenge the top 3 because or defence is piss poor and we lack top drawer creativity.
I blamed Jol heavily for the former as he clearly did not think the same (for reasons given above). But I did not blame him for the latter. But I didn't blame Comoli to much either. It is a nearly impossible task to attract top drawer players to a club in ourposition (we all know we have tried Nani etc).
But I would criticise Comoli if Bent was his decision and I wasn't chuffed we let Petrov go.

My argument is that the effect a coach can have is limited and becomes more so the higher the level of football. I think the key to challenging the top 4 is player acquisitions, not superior coaching.

Again, you know this is not my stance. My opinion is that it is more than one factor. It is player acquisitions and coaching (all that that entails) and leadership (all that that entails)

I think Jol is as good a coach as there is. You say I never give Comolli credit, but that isn’t true. I was very happy with the way things were moving along at the club and thought given time we had every chance of challenging the top 4, only not this season. However, the moment our representatives were caught meeting Ramos in Seville, things changed. All of a sudden it seemed our top 5 finishes weren’t good enough.

No all of a sudden the doubts raised by Jol in the last two years (poor coaching, fitness, tactics, ego management etc)manifested again with a couple of points from our first 12 games.

So from that point on, it became a case of if two 5th places aren’t good enough, then who is to blame? You seemed to say Jol, whilst I disagreed. I thought Jols coaching was easily of a top 4 level and results show this. Had the season started when he took over in 2004, we’d have finished 4th, though we had about the 10th best squad. The following season we had about the 6th best squad, yet were hugely unlucky to miss out on the CL and the season after that, we had the 5th best squad and finished 5th. Also, as I pointed out on many occasions, that when Ledley was fit our points average was superior to both that of Liverpool and Arsenal. To me it should be clear, that given the players of appropriate quality, Jol is every bit as good, if not better than his counterparts in the top 4.

So you think we had the 18th best squad this year ?


I just didn’t see it as realistic for us to finish in the top 4, when the players those clubs had were so superior to ours.

Liverpool are definately not much superior to us. And the other 13 teams certainly weren't.


(continues below)

I'll tackle the rest in a minute. Or two.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Bus-Conductor,

I just didn’t see it as realistic for us to finish in the top 4, when the players those clubs had were so superior to ours. Not only that, but I felt in the last year or so the gap in squad quality between us and the top 4 had grown, rather than gotten smaller and also the teams below had narrowed the gap. For example, last year we finished 8 pts short of the top 4, but were conceding too may goals when Leds didn’t play and lacked tempo and protection from midfield. If we bough appropriately in those key positions I thought there was every chance we’d challenge the top 4. But we didn’t! Kaboul was so painfully clearly not the right player to buy. I think he has a lot of potential, but he was undoubtedly a totally ridiculous transfer for what we needed. The same can be said of KPB. Even you agreed we a new CM player, to protect the back 4 and set a better tempo etc. Surely you can see that such signings are just dreadful. It’s been the case in general in key positions, since we came so close to finishing 4th. Whilst in this time Arsenal, Utd and Liverpool have strengthened in their key weak areas. Arsenal’s defence has been bolstered by the likes of Gallas and Sagna, Liverpool have sorted their striking problems and Utd have bought superbly. Lower down the table the likes of Villa, Pompey, City, Blackburn and Everton haven’t spent as much as us, but they’ve improved and strengthen in the right areas. We’ve bought talented players, but not the right players. So whilst others have got comparatively stronger, we’ve got worse. Our squad may on paper be better this year than last, but have we improved to the degree other teams around us have? Martin Jol’s coaching wasn’t the reason for us not finishing higher, he proved himself over the last 3 years. Our player purchases were the reason, though it would seem the board was advised otherwise.

But you argued with me constantly that I was wrong to doubt Robinson and Dawson a for over a year. This was a major factor in our defensive weakness. The blame for our defensive frailties can clearly be laid at Jol's door, for the reasons I have given above. And we had tried to sign better quality players but the top drawer ones (eg Van Bommel, Nani) wouldn't come. When we found a compromise and signed Davids we were a much better defensively but what did Jol do = fail to manage a big ego. We also had one of the best all round team strikers in the EPL in Kanoute and what happend = Jol failed to manage him. I agreed with you that we could do with a leader type ball winning CM. I also believed really strongly that truely sets us below the top 3 is creativity from midfield. Where we disagreed was what needed fixing most. I said we will continue to leak goals if we don't sort out the defence. It would appear Ramos agreed.

It seems that they thought a change of coach would mean a change of fortune, but as I posted on here many months ago, this is never the case unless the previous coach in incompetent, which Jol clearly wasn’t.

But we did get a change of firtune. We have climbed 8 places and won our first trophy (possible in the best style/manner since the sixties - and I was there when we were beating ManC etc)

Football history clearly demonstrates that whilst at the bottom and mid table level, a good coach can make all he difference (as Jol proved with us), but, at the very top, when dealing with players of such ability, there is little that can be done, to make a lesser team pick up points with the same consistency. You don’t teach top class defenders to defend, midfielders to win the ball and create or strikers to score. You don’t even need to be very tactical as proven by Wenger and Ferguson. The key is to build a great side of great players, that youngsters coming through can learn of and develop to a high standard.

I agree. But under Jol good players were not performing, not motivated occasionally, played out of position (yes it winds me up when Ramos does it too and I have said as much) and worst of all not picked or sold.

(continues below)

Wow, two more big fuckers to go.

 

[joey55]

I didn’t argue with you constantly over Robbo and Dawson. That simply isn’t true. I stayed well out of the Robbo debate. As for Dawson I said he needs and experienced defender alongside him and then he’d be fine. This seems to have been the case, as even you’ll have to admit he’s done well next to Woodgate. As for the Kanoute and Davids thing, get a grip. We’ve been over this loads of times. Check the table and see the results FFS. You know both sales worked out great for us. I went to length to show you how much better we were when Davids wasn’t in the team and how our results improved when he left the club. Jol handled the situation with a notoriously difficult to handle player superbly. FFS Davids had fights with both Keane and Zokora. He might have been a legend at is was great to see him in a Spurs shirt, but results proved it was the right decision to get rid of him, as it was the right decision to bring him in, in the first place. It seems nearly all of your Jol gripes centre around these 4 players, to the point that you are willing to almost ignore that fact we were very successful for 3 years! It doesn’t matter who the coach is BC, they will always do things you or anybody else will disagree with, but you just have to respect that and judge them on what they achieve.

You can’t seem to get away form the fact that Jol picked a couple of players you really didn’t rate. But, as I’ve pointed out, Ramos is virtually the same. You are now trying to suggest it’s Jols fault we didn’t bring in a top class defender, yet he mentioned Distin and Mexes by name. In a recent interview he also expressed his disappointment at not being able to bring in certain players and in his only other interview, in a incredibly dignified period since leaving the club, he said he told the board that to crack the top 4 we were going to have to spend a lot more money. It seems they didn’t agree with this, only now Juande seems have told them the same thing.

I think everyone in world agrees that success in football is a combination of coaching and player purchases, but lets cut the crap. Our general argument for the last year has been is it the coaching of player purchases that are they main reason we’ve failed to crack the top 4. My argument has been that Jols results (regardless of whether you agree with all his decisions or not) prove that his coaching is of a top 4 standard. Do you really believe Benitez or Wenger would have got more points had they been given our squads for the previous 2 seasons? Given the low tallies they got with much superior squads it is likely they wouldn’t and also that you’d find far more to complain about with those 2 highly decorated coaches than you did Jol. Likewise, had Jol been in charge of their squads do you feel he’d have got so few points? Again results suggest it unlikely, particularly when you see the points he occurred when our key players were fit. Jol said he didn’t think Mourinho could have done better than him, and to be fair he was probably right. We just brought in one of the most highly decorated coach’s in Europe, who has managed a ppg average that would have been good enough for 9th place in a regular season. People will argue that he is new to the job and needs time, but as I’ve continually pointed out, this is in complete contradiction to Prem history and is in fact a bit of a football myth. Obviously we can’t say for sure, but as far as results go, I think it’s fair to say Jol proved he is more than capable of fulfilling his part in the top 4 deal.

Your defence of the player purchases and Comolli seems to be that it is hard for him to recruite the standard of player necessary. But that doesn’t explain why we have recruited players of a lesser standard of clubs with far less resources and also paid a a lot more for them. I think most agreed the key area we needed to strengthen since 2006 are CB, CM, and LW. Well Harry Redknapp seems to have managed to recruite the likes of Krancjar, Muntary, Diarra and Distin. Wouldn’t they have given us the improvements we need? I see them as a huge step up from the likes of Kaboul, KPB, Zokora and the invisible LW. Yet they cost considerably less. Blackburn paid £500,000 for Samba and signed Nelson for free when they had CB problems. Do you really think we’d have conceded so many needless goals form set pieces with a leader like Nelson at the back? There have been countless opportunities to significantly improve our squad in the key areas needed, only our player purchasing hasn’t been to the standard of clubs around us. Surely it stings you to see the like of Young and Petrov doing such good jobs on the left.

But, in general I’m not overly disappointed with Comolli and have always backed him as a recruiter of youth players. My disgruntlement comes when people claim Jol was the reason we weren’t challenging the top 4, when it should be clear that the area we were falling behind in was player purchasing and the excuse you offer up simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny when you look at what other clubs have achieved in this area. This is exactly why I’m so positive about the coming season, as it appears (and I’ve been told) that Ramos is going to be the chief buyer and that we will be spending big money on quality. I’ve been very critical of Levy, but now I have to hold my hands up and say he is getting it right. We had to abandon that stupid transfer policy and the coach has to be in charge of recruiting for his team. If it took firing Jol and then being told the exact same thing by another man (Ramos), then so be it.

Lets be honest, even after Ramos coming in, making so few changes, getting such similar results and seemingly making such a damning appraisal of our squad and recent buys, you still are never going to admit to perhaps, if not being "wrong", then being more wrong than right. So this whole argument is pretty pointless. We'll never know for sure as it seems we are going to be making some big changes in the summer and the only comparisons will have with Jols reign is this season. From that point of view some will argue that we lacked motivation and that Ramos was new in the job and others will argue counter to this. At the end of the day it's all pointless and hopefully won't matter by the end of next season, as we could well find ourselves in the CL.

Maybe we should just agree to disagree:shrug:, as it seem that no matter what the other replies, one will come back with more arguments (to be fair I'm the most guilty of this). I suspect everyone knows where we stand and that we both largelly know what the other is going to reply, even before they have done so. Is there anything in these thousands of poitnless, time wasting, words, I've written that you haven't already seen before? Because trust me, I know all the BC arguments by heart.

PS I've noticed your abscene formt he thread wishing Jol good luck if he goes to HSV. I'm sure a few kind words from you won't be too hard and as you know, it would be wise to put a bet on them.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You often do this Joey. Come back with an even longer winded argument and then end it with lets just agree to disagree. It would perhaps be more genuine if you were to just replace your war and peace length rambles with these words alone.

I didn’t argue with you constantly over Robbo and Dawson. That simply isn’t true. I stayed well out of the Robbo debate. As for Dawson I said he needs and experienced defender alongside him and then he’d be fine. This seems to have been the case, as even you’ll have to admit he’s done well next to Woodgate.

You see you are still maintaining Dawson is fine ! No I don't agree. Let's see how much Dawson plays next season.

As for the Kanoute and Davids thing, get a grip. We’ve been over this loads of times. Check the table and see the results FFS. You know both sales worked out great for us. I went to length to show you how much better we were when Davids wasn’t in the team and how our results improved when he left the club. Jol handled the situation with a notoriously difficult to handle player superbly. FFS Davids had fights with both Keane and Zokora. He might have been a legend at is was great to see him in a Spurs shirt, but results proved it was the right decision to get rid of him, as it was the right decision to bring him in, in the first place. It seems nearly all of your Jol gripes centre around these 4 players, to the point that you are willing to almost ignore that fact we were very successful for 3 years! It doesn’t matter who the coach is BC, they will always do things you or anybody else will disagree with, but you just have to respect that and judge them on what they achieve.

You still think that we were a better team with Mido than we could have been with Kanoute. We both talk about the need for QUALITY footballers and you still maintain Mido was better for us than Kanoute. And you say I need to get a grip ??? And you still don't accept that Davids could have provided more protection to our fragile defence for some of the time. Based on the ridiculous PPG which takes no account of the other ten members of the team the tactics etc.
And you know my argument doesn't centre round 4 players, they are just easy examples of quite a few of Jol's inability to maximise a situation.


You can’t seem to get away form the fact that Jol picked a couple of players you really didn’t rate. But, as I’ve pointed out, Ramos is virtually the same. You are now trying to suggest it’s Jols fault we didn’t bring in a top class defender, yet he mentioned Distin and Mexes by name. In a recent interview he also expressed his disappointment at not being able to bring in certain players and in his only other interview, in a incredibly dignified period since leaving the club, he said he told the board that to crack the top 4 we were going to have to spend a lot more money. It seems they didn’t agree with this, only now Juande seems have told them the same thing.

The thing with Jol mentioning Distin and Mexes (I don't remember that but fat chance) is you and I don't know how the decision was arrived at.
What we do know is that Jol rated Dawson highly.
Comoli ight have said OK if I bring in Mexes he'll expect to play. Jol might have said "oh no that will mean I have to drop Dawson my player of the year, don't bother just find me cover for KIng" in fact I can probably locate the guardian article where Jol more or less says just that.


Your defence of the player purchases and Comolli seems to be that it is hard for him to recruite the standard of player necessary. But that doesn’t explain why we have recruited players of a lesser standard of clubs with far less resources and also paid a a lot more for them. I think most agreed the key area we needed to strengthen since 2006 are CB, CM, and LW. Well Harry Redknapp seems to have managed to recruite the likes of Krancjar, Muntary, Diarra and Distin. Wouldn’t they have given us the improvements we need? I see them as a huge step up from the likes of Kaboul, KPB, Zokora and the invisible LW. Yet they cost considerably less. Blackburn paid £500,000 for Samba and signed Nelson for free when they had CB problems. Do you really think we’d have conceded so many needless goals form set pieces with a leader like Nelson at the back? There have been countless opportunities to significantly improve our squad in the key areas needed, only our player purchasing hasn’t been to the standard of clubs around us. Surely it stings you to see the like of Young and Petrov doing such good jobs on the left.

Of course there have been players that other teams have brought in that I've thought, yeah we could have done with him. But most of those are in hindsight and after the other clubs have either gambled with a players age, fitness, promise etc and it has worked out. There have been many times too when there were players I've thought I wuld have loved us to sign and they have proved me wrong Duff, Parker etc. When I have not agreed with Comoli I have said so. You are still maintaining that Jol is as a good a coach as there is. You don't seem to accept that any of the things I say are valid criticisms. Yet here we are with Jol out of a Job. COINCIDENCE ???.

But, in general I’m not overly disappointed with Comolli and have always backed him as a recruiter of youth players. My disgruntlement comes when people claim Jol was the reason we weren’t challenging the top 4, when it should be clear that the area we were falling behind in was player purchasing and the excuse you offer up simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny when you look at what other clubs have achieved in this area. This is exactly why I’m so positive about the coming season, as it appears (and I’ve been told) that Ramos is going to be the chief buyer and that we will be spending big money on quality. I’ve been very critical of Levy, but now I have to hold my hands up and say he is getting it right. We had to abandon that stupid transfer policy and the coach has to be in charge of recruiting for his team. If it took firing Jol and then being told the exact same thing by another man (Ramos), then so be it.

BUt we haven't abandoned the "stupid policy". paying 8 mil for Hutton was no different to paying 8 mil for Jenas. Paying 16 mil for Modric is the type of purchase we have tried to make before (Nani) when Jol was still around (Bent 16mil). So far Woodgate is the only player, in cost/age that varies in any way. And he took a wage cut to come to us, otherwise he wouldn't be here either. If we sign 3/4 other 28yo for 8+ mil I'll gladly retract and accept the transfer policy has changed. But until then it hasn't. We just have a manager who is a far better judge of what is needed and isn't scared to say so or drop people.

Lets be honest, even after Ramos coming in, making so few changes, getting such similar results and seemingly making such a damning appraisal of our squad and recent buys, you still are never going to admit to perhaps, if not being "wrong", then being more wrong than right. So this whole argument is pretty pointless. We'll never know for sure as it seems we are going to be making some big changes in the summer and the only comparisons will have with Jols reign is this season. From that point of view some will argue that we lacked motivation and that Ramos was new in the job and others will argue counter to this. At the end of the day it's all pointless and hopefully won't matter by the end of next season, as we could well find ourselves in the CL.

But Joey, if you look at the issues we have argued I have invariable been right. Just the obvious ones for example.

I was telling you Robinson and Dawson were not good enough nearly 2 years ago.

I told you Kanoute was a much better footballer than Mido. Look what he achieved. Where the fuck is Mido now ?

I told you that you would see an increase in spending as a direct consequence of our increased profitability.

I told you that levy has and would make signings outside the perceived model. And he has.

And, most painfully for you, I told you that Jol was not good enough in various areas to get us where we want to go. Seems the board agreed.

These are just some easy to pick out things we have disagreed on. There were other things too. I can't really think of a single area we have argues where you have conclusively proved beyond doubt that you were right.

There were many things that we agreed on too. This seems to get over looked when we "get stuck in" to an argument.


Maybe we should just agree to disagree:shrug:, as it seem that no matter what the other replies, one will come back with more arguments (to be fair I'm the most guilty of this). I suspect everyone knows where we stand and that we both largelly know what the other is going to reply, even before they have done so. Is there anything in these thousands of poitnless, time wasting, words, I've written that you haven't already seen before? Because trust me, I know all the BC arguments by heart.

Let's not make promises we can't keep eh ?

PS I've noticed your abscene formt he thread wishing Jol good luck if he goes to HSV. I'm sure a few kind words from you won't be too hard and as you know, it would be wise to put a bet on them.

Of course I wish him well. I just thought it would be slightly hypocritical of me, and din't think for a minute he would read it. So hypocritical and pointless.

 

[yanno]

It's very interesting that Ramos seems to have personally recruited Kanoute for Sevilla, and then succeeded in getting Fredi playing the most consistently high level football of his career.

I am one of those arguing that Ramos should have ultimate control of first team signings to enable him to build the team he wants. However, we still don't know exactly how good a judge of horseflesh (to paraphrase Eddie Bailey) Juande actually is.

Benitez has had complete control over first team signings at Liverpool, and apart from very well known & expensive players - Xabi Alonso, Mascherano, Torres - his judgement hasn't been that good.

Also, if the coach has complete control over first team singings, Santini would have vetoed our purchase of Carrick. Fortunately, Arnesen & Levy went ahead & signed Carrick anyway.

It's a very tedious truism, but it does come down to signing players who are as good (or even better) than the market price we pay for them, and having a coach who has a clear idea of the players he needs to build a top class, winning, team. I assume that when Ramos asked Monchi to sign Kanoute, he knew exactly how he was going to integrate him into his team.

 

[Frozen_Waffles]

If they all free sign 'em all I say!

Seriously, I'm starting feel that not only is D.Comolli surplus to requirements, the whole DoF post is naff. Let's have one person, Ramos, clearly in charge and clearly responsible.

How about Martin Jol for Director of football?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It's very interesting that Ramos seems to have personally recruited Kanoute for Sevilla, and then succeeded in getting Fredi playing the most consistently high level football of his career.

I am one of those arguing that Ramos should have ultimate control of first team signings to enable him to build the team he wants. However, we still don't know exactly how good a judge of horseflesh (to paraphrase Eddie Bailey) Juande actually is.

Benitez has had complete control over first team signings at Liverpool, and apart from very well known & expensive players - Xabi Alonso, Mascherano, Torres - his judgement hasn't been that good.

Also, if the coach has complete control over first team singings, Santini would have vetoed our purchase of Carrick. Fortunately, Arnesen & Levy went ahead & signed Carrick anyway.

It's a very tedious truism, but it does come down to signing players who are as good (or even better) than the market price we pay for them, and having a coach who has a clear idea of the players he needs to build a top class, winning, team. I assume that when Ramos asked Monchi to sign Kanoute, he knew exactly how he was going to integrate him into his team.

But Benitez completely disproves this theory. He has been given complete control of who he signs and a big budget. And has signed soem very good players.

But his abject failure is mostly down to his poor management of those resources. He consistently plays players out of position (one of my pet hates as you know), gets his tactics wrong - almost always erring on the side of negativity.

 

[yanno]

But Benitez completely disproves this theory. He has been given complete control of who he signs and a big budget. And has signed soem very good players.

But his abject failure is mostly down to his poor management of those resources. He consistently plays players out of position (one of my pet hates as you know), gets his tactics wrong - almost always erring on the side of negativity.

B-C: I'm not sure I was proposing a theory in my post. And that's not being slippery. I'm essentially saying that imo the best system would involve the coach having ultimate control of first team signings, but even this doesn't guarantee success if the coach is an average or poor judge of horseflesh.

In the case of Santini and Carrick, my reading of the situation was that Pedro Mendes & Sean Davis had just joined the club, and Santini was happy with them. He wanted to show belief in, and loyalty to, Mendes by not signing a player who would directly compete for his position. As it turned out, Mendes is a good player, and Michael Carrick is a better player. So, Arnesen & Levy were absolutely correct to insist on the upgrade.

As for Benitez's tactics, they were clear for all to see at Valencia. He is a defensive coach who wants to deny space to the opposition and then counterattack quickly. However, he inherited Gerrard at Liverpool, and Gerrard does not fit into Benitez's vision of a CM, which is a player who protects the back four and does not make box-to-box runs leaving a hole in CM. So, Benitez played Gerrard out wide in a 4-4-2, and has now switched to a 4-2-3-1 where Mascherano and Xabi Alonso hold in CM, and Gerrard can attack at will from an ACM position.

I think Ramos is a bolder and more attacking coach than Benitez, and I think he should be given the chance to buy the players he wants to build his team over the summer. But it will take a season or so to learn whether his judgement of horseflesh is as good as it was with Kanoute, which I repeat is a case of the coach saying (effectively): "get me this player because he is what the team needs and he will help me build a team that can win things".

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C: I'm not sure I was proposing a theory in my post. And that's not being slippery. I'm essentially saying that imo the best system would involve the coach having ultimate control of first team signings, but even this doesn't guarantee success if the coach is an average or poor judge of horseflesh.

In the case of Santini and Carrick, my reading of the situation was that Pedro Mendes & Sean Davis had just joined the club, and Santini was happy with them. He wanted to show belief in, and loyalty to, Mendes by not signing a player who would directly compete for his position. As it turned out, Mendes is a good player, and Michael Carrick is a better player. So, Arnesen & Levy were absolutely correct to insist on the upgrade.

As for Benitez's tactics, they were clear for all to see at Valencia. He is a defensive coach who wants to deny space to the opposition and then counterattack quickly. However, he inherited Gerrard at Liverpool, and Gerrard does not fit into Benitez's vision of a CM, which is a player who protects the back four and does not make box-to-box runs leaving a hole in CM. So, Benitez played Gerrard out wide in a 4-4-2, and has now switched to a 4-2-3-1 where Mascherano and Xabi Alonso hold in CM, and Gerrard can attack at will from an ACM position.

I think Ramos is a bolder and more attacking coach than Benitez, and I think he should be given the chance to buy the players he wants to build his team over the summer. But it will take a season or so to learn whether his judgement of horseflesh is as good as it was with Kanoute, which I repeat is a case of the coach saying (effectively): "get me this player because he is what the team needs and he will help me build a team that can win things".

So you are saying there are examples of the DOF system working (Carrick) but in your opinion you prefer a manager who recruits his own with complete control.

Personally I like the DOF system. But of course the DOF has to be good.

Just out of ineterest, was it Ramos who specifically targeted Kanoute or was it Monichi or a bit of both.


The big problem (for the amateur pundit like you and I) with the DOF system is that none of us exactly know who is chossing who exactly. What has always annoyed meis how the Jol camp would give Comoli no credit for any decent sugnings (Berbatov) but slag him to the hilt for ones that are less obviously successfull. And vice versa. I don't think for a second that Jol had hoisted upon him every signing, or any signing. I'm sure Jol Comoli (Levy) would sit down frequently and discuss the teams needs, who is available (ie option 1,2,3) and the verious factors involved (team dynamics, cost, value of contract, risk etc).

Which is why I have mainly argued (in terms of players) on pretty much definates. Jol definately ousted Kanoute for Mido, definately played Brown ahead of Mendes, definately refused to drop Dawson & Robinson, definately fucked off Davids to the reserves and then out. Constantly played people out of position etc.

 

[dcm140204]

Zoltan Gera
Mario Yepes
Ewerthon
Javier Zanetti
Luis Jimenez
Antonio Cassano
Kasper Schmeichel
Sebastian Kehl

I'd take that lot!

 

[yanno]

So you are saying there are examples of the DOF system working (Carrick) but in your opinion you prefer a manager who recruits his own with complete control.

Personally I like the DOF system. But of course the DOF has to be good.

Just out of ineterest, was it Ramos who specifically targeted Kanoute or was it Monichi or a bit of both.

Ramos specifically targetted Kanoute, not Monchi.

How does your relationship with sporting director Monchi work? What roles do you have when it comes to choosing players?
Ramos: "There's a clear consensus. I tell Monchi the player or type of player I want: fast, tall, left-footed, right- footed, good in the air…and, based on his work and expertise, he says to me: “Look, we have this guy, or this guy.” Between us, we identify the player, or players, who can fit that. But it's not always like that. For example, Freddie Kanoute was a player no one here really knew and I recommended him because I had seen him for Tottenham and West Ham."
http://www.worldsoccer.com/interviews/sevilla_coach_juande_ramos_interview_107105.html

Of course the DoF has to be good, but even that may not be sufficient.

It was Barca's DoF who signed Riquelme, against coach Louis van Gaal's wishes. Was Riquelme a world class player? Yes. Was van Gaal prepared to change his formation to accomodate Riquelme? No. Result: Barca signed a world class player who failed for them, and had to move to another club (Villarreal) to be successful in Spain.

On the other hand, our DoF (Arnesen) signed a player, Carrick, who was better than the coach's first choice (Mendes). This proved successful because our coach was sacked (or resigned or whatever actually happened), and the coach who took over - Jol - knew that Carrick was a better player than Mendes.

There is no foolproof management structure or system. Management structures are nonsense enabling management consultants to earn loads of money for doing absolutely Sweet FA. (And I'm not talking about the Football Association.)

However, we're paying Ramos some ridiculous salary to bring us success, and therefore - pragmatically - I think he should be allowed to bring the players to the club who enable him to build a team to play the kind of football he wants to play. From the first match of next season - ie not players who costs many millions of pounds, and have genuine potential, but are not ready to play week in, week out, at the highest levels of the EPL.

 

[joey55]

Benitez is an interesting case and the are real cross overs with our own situation. Hector Cuper was Pitarch's first coaching appointment at Valencia. He had a good record in cup competitions but no real league pedigree. However, by the time he left Valencia, he was seen as one of the best coach's in Europe. He has since gone on to prove very average. His replacement at Valencia was Benitez, who had little in his background to suggest he was a top coach. But when he left Valencia he had a reputation as won of the best coach's in Europe. He has since gone on to have indifferent succes at Liverpool. The CL can't in any way be knocked, but despite a lot of money he's failed to really impact in the Prem. Yet his 2 titles with Valencia show that with the right players he know how to coach a side. At Liverpool he has bought some very good players, but his success rate isn't at all good. It usually takes him about 3 attempts and a good many millions to find the right player for the position. The guy proves time and time again he's a great coach and tactician, but when it comes to buying the right players, I'd say he's average.

Interestingly, many at Valencia feel they never got over losing Benitiez, but at the same time Pitarch left. Since he left the 2 coach's they've had have been relatively unsuccessful. Koeman in particular is a fascinating case of a coach that has won a lot, so on face value, has a great CV, but a closer look suggests he's under achieved at every single club he's been at. Ironically the team that looks like replacing Valencia in the top 4 is Athletico Madrid, whose Director of Football is now Pitarch.

 

[yanno]

Joey on Rafa Benitez:

At Liverpool he has bought some very good players, but his success rate isn't at all good. It usually takes him about 3 attempts and a good many millions to find the right player for the position. The guy proves time and time again he's a great coach and tactician, but when it comes to buying the right players, I'd say he's average.

I've lost count of the number of average Spanish players Benitez has signed due to his "great knowledge" of Spanish football who've turned out to be complete duds in the EPL. And everyone already knew about Alonso & Torres, they were bought for very large transfer fees.

Whoever scouts Bayer Leverkusen for Liverpool is a joke. Benitez signed Kuyt ahead of Berbatov, and then signed Berba's understudy, Voronin, from Leverkusen. So, the scousers get Kuyt & Voronin and we get Berba... :grin:

I hope Juande is an excellent judge of horseflesh. And I hope he's given the chance to prove that over the summer. But we really don't know for certain quite how good a judge of a player he is yet.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Benitez is an interesting case and the are real cross overs with our own situation. Hector Cuper was Pitarch's first coaching appointment at Valencia. He had a good record in cup competitions but no real league pedigree. However, by the time he left Valencia, he was seen as one of the best coach's in Europe. He has since gone on to prove very average. His replacement at Valencia was Benitez, who had little in his background to suggest he was a top coach. But when he left Valencia he had a reputation as won of the best coach's in Europe. He has since gone on to have indifferent succes at Liverpool. The CL can't in any way be knocked, but despite a lot of money he's failed to really impact in the Prem. Yet his 2 titles with Valencia show that with the right players he know how to coach a side. At Liverpool he has bought some very good players, but his success rate isn't at all good. It usually takes him about 3 attempts and a good many millions to find the right player for the position. The guy proves time and time again he's a great coach and tactician, but when it comes to buying the right players, I'd say he's average.

Interestingly, many at Valencia feel they never got over losing Benitiez, but at the same time Pitarch left. Since he left the 2 coach's they've had have been relatively unsuccessful. Koeman in particular is a fascinating case of a coach that has won a lot, so on face value, has a great CV, but a closer look suggests he's under achieved at every single club he's been at. Ironically the team that looks like replacing Valencia in the top 4 is Athletico Madrid, whose Director of Football is now Pitarch.

Yanno & Joey

Both your examples highlight for me why I think when the DOF is good it is the best system. Let me rephrase that. When the DOF is good and the manager is too it is the very best system. But of the two it is the good DOF who is vital.

With the exeption of Bent at 16mil I have understood the logic of nearly all of Comoli's signings (even more so than some of Arnesen's to be honest). I haven't always agreed with them, and there have been times, as Joey rightly said, when I wished that we had bought a player that another team has, as well as being relieved in retrospect that we didn't get a player I highly rated.

It seems that when levy has directed/authorised Comoli is just as happy spending big money on talented ready to roll players as he is on kids and everyhthing in between.

The stumbling block for big talented signings has inevitably been our financial and footballing circumstances and not some agenda of Comoli to only buy potential.

Yanno
God find on the Ramos/Kanoute thing. Just reinforces my belief in the guy really. But I also rated Monichi very highly too.

 

[joey55]

Yanno & Joey

Both your examples highlight for me why I think when the DOF is good it is the best system. Let me rephrase that. When the DOF is good and the manager is too it is the very best system. But of the two it is the good DOF who is vital.

With the exeption of Bent at 16mil I have understood the logic of nearly all of Comoli's signings (even more so than some of Arnesen's to be honest). I haven't always agreed with them, and there have been times, as Joey rightly said, when I wished that we had bought a player that another team has, as well as being relieved in retrospect that we didn't get a player I highly rated.

It seems that when levy has directed/authorised Comoli is just as happy spending big money on talented ready to roll players as he is on kids and everyhthing in between.

The stumbling block for big talented signings has inevitably been our financial and footballing circumstances and not some agenda of Comoli to only buy potential.

You may of understood and in their own right, most have been good players. But surely even you'll have to admit, recent player purchases in terms of suitability for our needs have more to do with our failure to progress over the last 2 years than the coaching. No coach or director of football will get it right all the time, even the best in both fields. It's hard to believe many, if any, other top coach could have beaten our 2 top 5 finishes with the squad we had. Ramos is surely proof of that. But it isn't hard to believe we could have done a lot better in the transfer market. Take Redknapp's buying of Distin, Diarra and Muntari. Had we brought those 3 players instead of Kanoul and KPB, don't you think we'd have gone very close to the CL this season? Given our previous seasons results, it's hard to imagine we wouldn't of. Comolli has done some good work and i definately see a role for him at the club, but 'm glad he has now been given a lesser role and more responsibility is on Ramos as concerns transfers.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Oh and concerning Benitez, He has steadily down graded in my opinion. His tactics bore me, and unlike Mourinho, are not even overly successfull. I keep harking on about players out of position but the constant use of Kuyt as a right winger when he has people like Pennat, Benayoun and Babel genuinly seems counter productive and negative.