Poch needs to take a long hard look at himself.

[mightyspur]

Bayern in our group isn't even top half of their domestic league, I am not saying we had an easy group but I do believe Leicester has a slightly tougher group than ours, I would at the very least say their were equal in quality, we should have at the very least finished second in our group.

I'm not disagreeing that we probably should have qualified from our group, but Leicester's is far easier

 

[Hazardousman]

It could be OR it could be that we've got a few players who are struggling for form - Alli, Eriksen, Janssen - and some who perhaps aren't quite fit - Dembele, Kane, Alli - and then we've tried to shoehorn in more replacements at one time than we'd like - Wimmer, Dier at CB, Trippier, I suspect Winks is seeing more game time than he would otherwise and of course we are still missing Toby - who's only the best CB in the league so presumably no team would miss him?

So perhaps it's not all doom and gloom, perhaps we just haven't had the easy ride that we had last season?

I agree that Poch got it wrong today - we were weak in wide areas which is why Monaco's best player was one of their full backs. However, I think there are mitigating circumstances.

I think our injuries have certainly played a part, no denying that whatsoever but the amount of players struggling for form all at once is a concern to me, normally when a group of players are struggling for form it's indicative of a wider issue within the dressing room (or history has certainly shown that at clubs.)

I think the defensive issues are certainly starting to show more now than before without Toby, West Ham being a good example but I think our main issue has been going forward and I believe that's because of Wanyama and the way we have abandoned our system from last season, the positive however of Wanyama is that I think he has made us more defensively solid without Toby in the side.

I believe that however it's now time to take a risk, we need to move back to what was making us so prolific in attack last season because the longer we go on lacking fluidity in attack the bigger impact it will have on morale and form going forward, we don't want to get into such a mental rut that we can't get out of it in an attacking sense, the press needs to return and Wanyama needs to only play in games where we need to be more defensively solid.

This is why I believe the majority of our issues are tactical rather than based on injuries, although like I said, they certainly have played their part.

 

[thinktank]

Not pressing properly and poch is letting them get away with it for some reason. Pressing has been at the core of all our good football.

Also, I think Poch is over-analysing things behind the scenes and missing some simple, obvious, stock things we should be doing, but are not - like getting around the back.

Pressing and movement, above all, need to be sorted.

I think we also need to choose a shape and stick to it for a few games and steady the ship.

 

[SEANSPURS1975]

For me we were missing only ONE player who without doubt walks into our best XI. Toby Alderweireld. Lamela is debatable. Pochettino had everyone else's available. There is no excuse for that debacle tonight. His team selection and formation showed complete contempt for this trophy and we shouldn't be surprised with the outcome.

 

[Spinders]

I love Poch, but he has been shit in all Euro comps for us. We just cared less when it was on a Thurs.

 

[muppetman]

I think our injuries have certainly played a part, no denying that whatsoever but the amount of players struggling for form all at once is a concern to me, normally when a group of players are struggling for form it's indicative of a wider issue within the dressing room (or history has certainly shown that at clubs.)

I think the defensive issues are certainly starting to show more now than before without Toby, West Ham being a good example but I think our main issue has been going forward and I believe that's because of Wanyama and the way we have abandoned our system from last season, the positive however of Wanyama is that I think he has made us more defensively solid without Toby in the side.

I believe that however it's now time to take a risk, we need to move back to what was making us so prolific in attack last season because the longer we go on lacking fluidity in attack the bigger impact it will have on morale and form going forward, we don't want to get into such a mental rut that we can't get out of it in an attacking sense, the press needs to return and Wanyama needs to only play in games where we need to be more defensively solid.

This is why I believe the majority of our issues are tactical rather than based on injuries, although like I said, they certainly have played their part.

I hear what you are saying. But could it not be that we didn't go for a more "gung ho" approach before because our top striker wasn't available or at full fitness? Could we be playing more defensively because we haven't had Kane and neither Janssen (yet) or Son (ever) were a suitable replacement?

Could it be that without our top striker we knew we'd have to be defensively sound, nick a few goals from midfield and not concede many so that when he came back we hadn't done a West Ham and fallen to the foot of the table? As it stands we are within touching distance after a number of injuries to key players?

Or of course, it could be a total fucking disaster and the sky is falling - equally a valid suggestion.

I also think the lack of Lamela is more of an issue than many would like to admit but I can only fight so many battles in one day!

 

[Hercules]

I love Poch, but he has been shit in all Euro comps for us. We just cared less when it was on a Thurs.

I think and pray he may have finally had a reality check admitting we need to add "real quality in the upcoming windows". That says, we cannot keep investing (gambling) in potential, which hasn't worked overall.

 

[thinktank]

I love Poch, but he has been shit in all Euro comps for us. We just cared less when it was on a Thurs.

Would have to say this is true.

 

[Hazardousman]

I hear what you are saying. But could it not be that we didn't go for a more "gung ho" approach before because our top striker wasn't available or at full fitness? Could we be playing more defensively because we haven't had Kane and neither Janssen (yet) or Son (ever) were a suitable replacement?

Could it be that without our top striker we knew we'd have to be defensively sound, nick a few goals from midfield and not concede many so that when he came back we hadn't done a West Ham and fallen to the foot of the table? As it stands we are within touching distance after a number of injuries to key players?

Or of course, it could be a total fucking disaster and the sky is falling - equally a valid suggestion.

I also think the lack of Lamela is more of an issue than many would like to admit but I can only fight so many battles in one day!

I think you make good and valid points and they certainly shouldn't be discounted as they may be the reason, like you say it could be either or at this point in time.

I think things will probably be a lot clearer after Christmas, my worry however is that, whatever the reason is for what we are seeing, if we go into the New Year in a bad way and in a poor position then things could get very bad for us, so I am of the opinion that, whatever the reason may be something needs to change, Poch needs to either revert back to what was working last season or try something completely different to get us more fluent in attack again.

It is impressive given our injuries and our form that we are even within touching distance of the top, it's almost unbelievable quite frankly at this juncture, the Chelsea game is going to be a massive test of our credentials, if we can even manage a draw from that game then I will remain positive for us going into the christmas period as long as we play well, hanging on for a draw after a poor performance won't be encouraging.

I do agree with you on Lamela, he is probably the most important player for us in terms of pressing and winning attitude quite frankly outside of Kane.

 

[Tom Pops]

Leicester have qualified for the last 16, top of their group in a much harder group might I add, we had enough to qualify from this group even if it meant finishing second, we haven't been good enough and the majority of that blame is laying at the managers feet.

They are 100% definitely not in a much harder group. That group is the weakest in the CL by a long way.

The Danish and Belgian leagues are championship standard at best. Porto are a decent team but they're not as good as Bayer or Monaco.

 

[Johnny J]

Our movement off the ball going forward is absolutely diabolical. It's barely there. Most of the time, no one makes runs or gets into space to receive the ball. They all just stand around and wait for something to happen. Well, Bale can't do that anymore, and Kane has been injured and still getting back to fitness.

Amazing that no one is stepping up. Some, like Eriksen in particular, seem to be actively hiding from any responsibility.

Long-term and niggling injuries to basically the entire team don't help, of course.

 

[Hazardousman]

They are 100% definitely not in a much harder group. That group is the weakest in the CL by a long way.

Fair enough, that's your opinion and I appreciate your input, I do believe at the very least though their group is on par with ours, I was being slightly hyperbolic when I said it was much harder (blame tonight's result for that) but I do believe we had the quality to get through this group, at the very least to finish second.

Watching us however tells a different story, we don't look anywhere near good enough for CL.

 

[Hazardousman]

Our movement off the ball going forward is absolutely diabolical. It's barely there. Most of the time, no one makes runs or gets into space to receive the ball. They all just stand around and wait for something to happen. Well, Bale can't do that anymore, and Kane has been injured and still getting back to fitness.

Amazing that no one is stepping up. Some, like Eriksen in particular, seem to be actively hiding from any responsibility.

Long-term and niggling injuries to basically the entire team don't help, of course.

I also believe the fact we are more defensively minded in midfield and more congested due to Wanyama contributes to that, don't get me wrong I think Wanyama is an excellent player, I don't want people thinking I am saying he himself is the reason, it's just tactically him playing harms us going forward and lessens the impact the other players have around him in an attacking sense.

 

[muppetman]

I think you make good and valid points and they certainly shouldn't be discounted as they may be the reason, like you say it could be either or at this point in time.

I think things will probably be a lot clearer after Christmas, my worry however is that, whatever the reason is for what we are seeing, if we go into the New Year in a bad way and in a poor position then things could get very bad for us, so I am of the opinion that, whatever the reason may be something needs to change, Poch needs to either revert back to what was working last season or try something completely different to get us more fluent in attack again.

It is impressive given our injuries and our form that we are even within touching distance of the top, it's almost unbelievable quite frankly at this juncture, the Chelsea game is going to be a massive test of our credentials, if we can even manage a draw from that game then I will remain positive for us going into the christmas period as long as we play well, hanging on for a draw after a poor performance won't be encouraging.

I do agree with you on Lamela, he is probably the most important player for us in terms of pressing and winning attitude quite frankly outside of Kane.

I think we are going to get raped at Stamford Bridge, no doubt about it - we just can't let it define our season. Take the loss, accept why and then regroup and move on from there.

Don't get me wrong I hope we raise our game and beat them but we can't let it define our season. They are at full strength, have no European fixtures and are at home. We just need to keep it in perspective. It's a long season and we need to treat it as such - not go mental and lose a bunch of players to suspension that has a larger knock on effect.

I'd also ask what constitutes a "bad way", 5th? 6th? 10th? When you look at all metrics for spending we should be 6th - therefore what constitutes bad? Our expectations have risen after last season (rightly so) but we need to be sensible, dropping down to 6th for a while would hardly be the end of the world.

 

[millsey]

He is saying we need to spend more money

Is he?

 

[millsey]

I think we are going to get raped at Stamford Bridge, no doubt about it - we just can't let it define our season. Take the loss, accept why and then regroup and move on from there.

Don't get me wrong I hope we raise our game and beat them but we can't let it define our season. They are at full strength, have no European fixtures and are at home. We just need to keep it in perspective. It's a long season and we need to treat it as such - not go mental and lose a bunch of players to suspension that has a larger knock on effect.

I'd also ask what constitutes a "bad way", 5th? 6th? 10th? When you look at all metrics for spending we should be 6th - therefore what constitutes bad? Our expectations have risen after last season (rightly so) but we need to be sensible, dropping down to 6th for a while would hardly be the end of the world.

Brilliant post

 

[crokey]

I'm down for banning everyone in this thread from the forum

 

[eddiev14]

We can't identify players in the market to improve us, who we can afford.

Until we crack that, we are stuck where we are.

 

[Mustard]

You look at Leicester and their season and would you swap it ours?

They have put CL above the league. At least they will have a bit of fun next year.

Poch is letting us down by fielding such a team. Today was a cup final. An early cup final. We are out of the league cup. Out of the CL. And you just know from experience he will have us out of The Europa asap.

He may have a long term plan. Not one I can fathom at this stage.

What's the point of getting in a comp just to fuck it off?

I'm not gutted or angry. Just confused.

 

[millsey]

Aren't we going over the top that poch binned it off. He rested 2 players, vert and walker. Walker came off injured 3 days ago so maybe wasn't 100 percent and Trippier never let us down. Guessing poch didn't think vert could do 3 games in a week, last season Toby could play Europa and league but Vert never did. but would we have won with him? I doubt it